probably the greatest weakness of Hebrew Roots

[Dan_473]

to me,

Isaiah's prophecy isn't specific to a time... just sometime after the return from exile

it may refer to several different time periods

 

[MacBestus]

Really? Please give us some examples. If you could prove that one most seminary doctoral review boards would grant you a doctorate.

 

[Dan_473]

Well, starting in the first verse, it says it's 'soon'

ISAIAH 56:1 Thus says the LORD: Keep justice, and do righteousness, for soon my salvation will come, and my deliverance be revealed.

 

[MacBestus]

Well, starting in the first verse, it says it's 'soon'

ISAIAH 56:1 Thus says the LORD: Keep justice, and do righteousness, for soon my salvation will come, and my deliverance be revealed.

This is a messianc prophecy in a string of messianic prophecies. YHWH's Salvation is the Messiah. Hint thats how come we say he is our salvation. Because he saved us. And guess what the Messiahs Hebrew name means....YHWH is Salvation. Really this is one you should give up on. If you are trying to hone in on that "soon" word...

Messiah said he was returning soon as well.

 

[oldethennew]

maybe that they are giving their all to actually, actively putting all of their efforts
into loving and obeying their Holy Master, Jesus Christ...???

now, how many 'Christians could/would have the gall to call this a weakness???

 

[GraceIsLove]

Hello all. I am a pastor at a non denominational church in the Midwestern USA. After service Sunday, I was pulled aside by a church council member with a stack of printouts of this thread. She is a member here at Christian Chat. Her concern was that a member of the Hebrew Roots cult was "kicking our butts!" in a debate which is this thread. I spent a few hours reading this and researching what was being said on both sides. I persevered through all the typos macbestus wrought, as well as his opponents answering questions with other questions - a debate technique I hate. I also watched the two videos on YouTube that macbestus had linked to.

I came here to help refute what I had considered legalism. Now I am not sure. macbestus are there more of those videos? I kind of felt like Cleopus in Luke 24 while watching them. You know, the scales fell away from my eyes to paraphrase.

The "Another Yahshua"one started up a little slow but once the narrator warmed up I had to keep pausing it and writing down verses and looking things up in my Strong's. Eye opening to say the least.

I am not ready to jump on the Hebrew Roots train, but I am becoming more open minded. Macbestus you and the guy on the you tube video are very different than the other Hebrew Roots people I have heard. That is a compliment by the way. But answer me this. If this is true, why are we just finding out about it now

 

[Dan_473]

maybe that they are giving their all to actually, actively putting all of their efforts
into loving and obeying their Holy Master, Jesus Christ...???

now, how many 'Christians could/would have the gall to call this a weakness???

In my view, being a Lone Ranger Christian is not a good idea

ECCLESIASTES 4:9 Two are better than one, because they have a good reward for their toil.
ECCLESIASTES 4:10 For if they fall, one will lift up his fellow. But woe to him who is alone when he falls and has not another to lift him up!
ECCLESIASTES 4:11 Again, if two lie together, they keep warm, but how can one keep warm alone?
ECCLESIASTES 4:12 And though a man might prevail against one who is alone, two will withstand him—a threefold cord is not quickly broken.

 

[Dan_473]

Hi GraceIsLove, Welcome to CC!

 

[Grace777x70]

Personally I do not view all Hebrew Roots people as the same thing. There are some extreme sects of it for sure. I love how that Christ is seen in all the law of Moses and in all the OT. They all speak of Him! I love how the Hebrew language describes Christ so well in pictures.

I think it is a blessing to the body of Christ that Jews are coming to Christ as their Messiah because they bring with them the rich heritage that is in their ethnic background. I do see error in some extreme sects of Roots people that try to make themselves Jewish now when in fact they are Gentiles.

I have no problem with those of us that believe in observing a special day such as the Sabbath day or the festivals as in the law of Moses. Where the extreme error is in my opinion is when they say "If you do not observe the Sabbath or the festivals as outlined in the law of Moses - you are dis-obeying God and sinning". This is a complete perversion of the gospel of the grace of Christ and it is an anti-Christ belief system.

Christians have died to the law of Moses, been released from the law of Moses and are not under the law of Moses anymore - but grace only. We serve God in the newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter.

The law of the spirit of life in Christ Jesus and the law of love, the law of faith and the law of liberty - the law of Christ Himself in us completely replaces how we live now and all of them will fulfill the intent of the law. Love is the fulfillment of the law.

So, I say to those that want to observe a day or a festival as they desire. You have the liberty in Christ to do so.- go for it and enjoy our Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[MacBestus]

In my view, being a Lone Ranger Christian is not a good idea

ECCLESIASTES 4:9 Two are better than one, because they have a good reward for their toil.
ECCLESIASTES 4:10 For if they fall, one will lift up his fellow. But woe to him who is alone when he falls and has not another to lift him up!
ECCLESIASTES 4:11 Again, if two lie together, they keep warm, but how can one keep warm alone?
ECCLESIASTES 4:12 And though a man might prevail against one who is alone, two will withstand him—a threefold cord is not quickly broken.

Dan, I could not agree more. I will give another couple verses.

Psalms 133

*1**Behold, how good and how pleasant it is for brethren to dwell together in unity!

*2**It is like the precious ointment upon the head, that ran down upon the beard, even Aaron's beard: that went down to the skirts of his garments;

*3**As the dew of Hermon, and as the dew that descended upon the mountains of Zion: for there*יהוה commanded the blessing, even life for evermore.

And Hebrews 10:22**Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.

*23**Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised

*24**And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:

*25**Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.

I encourage all HRM to join assemblies or start them. There are three great fellowship finders I know of for people looking to worship as the bible teaches and leave behind the following of the sun worship and celebration of sin taught in most churches.

Fellowship Finder | 119 Ministries

Fellowship Finder – Aviv Fellowships

https://www.eliyah.com/fellowship/

I have used all three of these and have met many great brothers and sisters. Be warned that you need to use discernment when joining any fellowship.

Another thing to note is that although these fellowships are on various ministries websites they will often not even be similar to those host ministries belief systems. The Hebrew Roots is not set up on a Nicolation model with one man or small group setting the beliefs of all. Rather, it is a study system where all believers pour over scripture prayerfully to learn. Each striving personally to come into relationship with Messiah through love, life, and learning... Each fellowship will have its own flavor. And unlike conventional Christian churches there may be close brothers who fellowship together every week while having different understandings about certain aspects of The Walk. And their may also be rigidly dogmatic assemblies as well. This is less common in my experience.

 

[MacBestus]

maybe that they are giving their all to actually, actively putting all of their efforts
into loving and obeying their Holy Master, Jesus Christ...???

now, how many 'Christians could/would have the gall to call this a weakness???

How accurate...! I see you get it! Shalom Shalom!

 

[Dan_473]

Dan, I could not agree more. I will give another couple verses.

Psalms 133

*1**Behold, how good and how pleasant it is for brethren to dwell together in unity!

*2**It is like the precious ointment upon the head, that ran down upon the beard, even Aaron's beard: that went down to the skirts of his garments;

*3**As the dew of Hermon, and as the dew that descended upon the mountains of Zion: for there*יהוה commanded the blessing, even life for evermore.

And Hebrews 10:22**Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.

*23**Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised

*24**And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:

*25**Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.

I encourage all HRM to join assemblies or start them. There are three great fellowship finders I know of for people looking to worship as the bible teaches and leave behind the following of the sun worship and celebration of sin taught in most churches.

Fellowship Finder | 119 Ministries

Fellowship Finder – Aviv Fellowships

https://www.eliyah.com/fellowship/

I have used all three of these and have met many great brothers and sisters. Be warned that you need to use discernment when joining any fellowship.

Another thing to note is that although these fellowships are on various ministries websites they will often not even be similar to those host ministries belief systems. The Hebrew Roots is not set up on a Nicolation model with one man or small group setting the beliefs of all. Rather, it is a study system where all believers pour over scripture prayerfully to learn. Each striving personally to come into relationship with Messiah through love, life, and learning... Each fellowship will have its own flavor. And unlike conventional Christian churches there may be close brothers who fellowship together every week while having different understandings about certain aspects of The Walk. And their may also be rigidly dogmatic assemblies as well. This is less common in my experience.

Based on my experiences here on CC, I expect that those communities are based on a common view of the theory of law-keeping.

individual practices are left to, well, the individual.

yet HRM seems to focus on rule-following. It's this combination that I believe to be the weakness... not a weakness in the roots folk's character or relationship with Jesus...

but a weakness when the roots folks want to discuss the law in a forum like CC.

because all they can really talk about is the theory of law-keeping... not much can be said about actual practices.

That's how it looks to me.

 

[MacBestus]

Hello all. I am a pastor at a non denominational church in the Midwestern USA. After service Sunday, I was pulled aside by a church council member with a stack of printouts of this thread. She is a member here at Christian Chat. Her concern was that a member of the Hebrew Roots cult was "kicking our butts!" in a debate which is this thread. I spent a few hours reading this and researching what was being said on both sides. I persevered through all the typos macbestus wrought, as well as his opponents answering questions with other questions - a debate technique I hate. I also watched the two videos on YouTube that macbestus had linked to.

I came here to help refute what I had considered legalism. Now I am not sure. macbestus are there more of those videos? I kind of felt like Cleopus in Luke 24 while watching them. You know, the scales fell away from my eyes to paraphrase.

The "Another Yahshua"one started up a little slow but once the narrator warmed up I had to keep pausing it and writing down verses and looking things up in my Strong's. Eye opening to say the least.

I am not ready to jump on the Hebrew Roots train, but I am becoming more open minded. Macbestus you and the guy on the you tube video are very different than the other Hebrew Roots people I have heard. That is a compliment by the way. But answer me this. If this is true, why are we just finding out about it now

Thank you for your kind words (except your crack about my typos I already admitted to them lol )

In answer to your questions about the videos I linked to. It is my understanding that EFB is changing the format and making them shorter. They were originally put up as a test and proof of concept that I was blessed to take part in. So soon (I do not know what soon means) He will be taking these down and replacing them with the final version.

The intent of the channel was to be a seminary level bible school available anytime you wish.

I would recommend watching the longer. (1 hour) videos now before they are replaced just because they are good.

You can contact him directly through his you tube probably. If not Private message me and I will give him your email address.

As far as the question is the HRM new... No. It is old. The most cursory research will show it is the way the apostles worshipped. this HRM way or something like it. Those that have ears to hear and eyes to see are merely rediscovering it as they study to show themselves approved.This was also the dominant style of worship historically until the fourth century when Constantine got involved. That is when most Roman things (Sunday worship' replacement of biblical holidays with ones from other religions such as Easter and Christmas. The Cross as a venerated object, believers going to heaven at death.) were introduced. It was a brutal time with those who clung to the original faith being executed and even more extreme violence in the church leadership. The council of Nicea for example reached consensus only after a bishop on the side of not adding in the Roman things was kicked to death by Constantine's minions. The Church then entered into a period of Universalism. Merging belief systems into what became Catholic and indeed protestant faith today. None of this is hidden. I am sure you as a pastor know most of this already. I did too as a pastor. But for some reason we learn to gloss over it. When he moves our heart though... It cannot stand anymore.

The assembly of Hebrew believers has always been here. A small remnant. Centered in different places under different names. Until as foretold at the end they resurge at the time right before the tribulation.

I believe this is what the incredible world wide growth in this movement in the recent decade is about. The gathering of the churches of Philadelphia and Smyrna.

I am sure that many people reading this are shaking their heads saying "what?" I did too. Like you I was a Pastor. The thing is when you start looking into it with a heart of a child you cannot make the majority. Christian worship system work logically without the rejection of a large body of the bible. Both Old and New Testament. And the addition of things forbidden in scripture. Things from pagan faiths. Forbidden by ours. Not just holidays but theologies as well.

So two answers one being it was always here and two being because it's in foretold in scripture.

 

[MacBestus]

Based on my experiences here on CC, I expect that those communities are based on a common view of the theory of law-keeping.

individual practices are left to, well, the individual.

yet HRM seems to focus on rule-following. It's this combination that I believe to be the weakness... not a weakness in the roots folk's character or relationship with Jesus...

but a weakness when the roots folks want to discuss the law in a forum like CC.

because all they can really talk about is the theory of law-keeping... not much can be said about actual practices.

That's how it looks to me.

Ahh grasshopper.... Lol just kidding.

It is very Orwellian that you believe obedience to the Word of YHWH as practiced by Messiah and ALL of his disciples is weakness. Yet following the doctrine of free sin is strength.

Do you not see this is the exact argument made in the Garden by the Adversary to our Ancestors? Didn't Messiah warn that others would come in his name preaching he was messiah yet teaching an opposite gospel of self and of lawlessness? Didn't Peter warn Paul's writings would be used in error to try and prove it?! Didn't Paul say YHWH forbid we continue in sin? Didn't Messiah say go forth and sin no more after being forgiven?

I didn't come to CC to preach HRM. I came to CC because here on CC people were telling untruths and misconceptions about the Hebrew Roots base beliefs. And I am bound to reprove and rebuke this - in season and out of season less those operating under delusion not hear the word and their blood be on my hands.

As far as the practice of our living Torah I am still waiting for you to clarify your position on the Messianic prophecy of Isaiah 56 and the Sabbath being about several different periods, in denial of the New Testament, as a beginning on our discussion on Sabbath Keeping and Hang Gliding..... I am looking forward to helping you and other people understand, with a discussion of Sabbath keeping first and then any other parts of Torah you believe no longer to be observed.

It is your turn.

To remind and clarify. "Soon?" What was your point in isolating that word in quotations?

 

[Dan_473]

Ahh grasshopper.... Lol just kidding.

It is very Orwellian that you believe obedience to the Word of YHWH as practiced by Messiah and ALL of his disciples is weakness. Yet following the doctrine of free sin is strength.

Do you not see this is the exact argument made in the Garden by the Adversary to our Ancestors? Didn't Messiah warn that others would come in his name preaching he was messiah yet teaching an opposite gospel of self and of lawlessness? Didn't Peter warn Paul's writings would be used in error to try and prove it?! Didn't Paul say YHWH forbid we continue in sin? Didn't Messiah say go forth and sin no more after being forgiven?

I didn't come to CC to preach HRM. I came to CC because here on CC people were telling untruths and misconceptions about the Hebrew Roots base beliefs. And I am bound to reprove and rebuke this - in season and out of season less those operating under delusion not hear the word and their blood be on my hands.

As far as the practice of our living Torah I am still waiting for you to clarify your position on the Messianic prophecy of Isaiah 56 and the Sabbath being about several different periods, in denial of the New Testament, as a beginning on our discussion on Sabbath Keeping and Hang Gliding..... I am looking forward to helping you and other people understand, with a discussion of Sabbath keeping first and then any other parts of Torah you believe no longer to be observed.

It is your turn.

To remind and clarify. "Soon?" What was your point in isolating that word in quotations?

‘It is very Orwellian that you believe obedience to the Word of YHWH as practiced by Messiah and ALL of his disciples is weakness. Yet following the doctrine of free sin is strength.’

I believe you are misrepresenting what I’ve said.




I explained briefly why I think Isaiah's prophecy isn't specific to a time. I like to keep my posts short, generally.

I put ‘soon’ in quotes as a stylistic choice, to show that it was the word I was talking about.

If you don’t accept my explanation of Isaiah, that’s ok… I don’t believe it’s my role to convince others of its rightness.

If something seems unclear to you, you are welcome to ask about what in particular is unclear… though I can’t guarantee I will explain it in a way that satisfies others.

 

[GraceIsLove]

Do you not see this is the exact argument made in the Garden by the Adversary to our Ancestors? Didn't Messiah warn that others would come in his name preaching he was messiah yet teaching an opposite gospel of self and of lawlessness? Didn't Peter warn Paul's writings would be used in error to try and prove it?! Didn't Paul say YHWH forbid we continue in sin? Didn't Messiah say go forth and sin no more after being forgiven?

This paragraph to me as a pastor is a serious gut check... Particularly after watching those videos. I have watched the "Another Yahshua" one three times now.

This is especially hard because I am currently teaching advent and do not know if I should continue or begin teaching the Jewish holidays.... I know now how Alice must have felt...

 

[FreeNChrist]

This paragraph to me as a pastor is a serious gut check... Particularly after watching those videos. I have watched the "Another Yahshua" one three times now.

This is especially hard because I am currently teaching advent and do not know if I should continue or begin teaching the Jewish holidays.... I know now how Alice must have felt...

Something smells fishy.........

 

[GraceIsLove]

Something smells fishy.........

How do you mean?

 

[FreeNChrist]

How do you mean?

You're a pastor and you are that easily swayed? Really?

 

[GraceIsLove]

I would hardly call the hours of research on holidays I have done since I watched that video on Sunday to make me unsure as "easily swayed." Have you watched it?

I have been going all night on this. I can find no contridictions to the video in the bible. I am not instantly Hebrew Roots. I am doubting if I should teach Christmas.