America = Nineveh ?

[cavil51]

I am concerned about America (USA). We (IMHO) have "dodged a bullet" as far as a further deterioration of society from the leftist agenda. BUT, is this just a temporary situation because of God giving His grace to America in response to the prayers of His people? I would remind all who claimed/used 2 Chronicles 7:14 as a basis for their prayer to not forget that essentially - this is a "contract" with God. Look please, at this "paraphrase or interpretation".

On the condition that those people saved by Christ,
(Those who call themselves by my name, AKA Christians)

#1 - Will in the spirit of lowliness and modesty,


#2 - Ask earnestly and entreat of me,


#3 - Searching for direction from my word,


#4 - Abandoning their evil and sinful paths

THEN

​

I will hear from heaven and acknowledge their request


AND


Will forgive their transgressions against me


AND


Will make well their nation by restoring it to a sound, healthy constitution.

Please remember that if we neglect those four "conditions", we run the risk of abandonment by God (IMHO). So, continue praying the prayer BUT also strive to live it, elsewise, we could end up as Nineveh!

Be Well,

cavil

 

[maxwel]

I am concerned about America (USA). We (IMHO) have "dodged a bullet" as far as a further deterioration of society from the leftist agenda. BUT, is this just a temporary situation because of God giving His grace to America in response to the prayers of His people? I would remind all who claimed/used 2 Chronicles 7:14 as a basis for their prayer to not forget that essentially - this is a "contract" with God. Look please, at this "paraphrase or interpretation".

Just a few quick points.

1. The "premise of the post" and the "bible text given to support it" have nothing to do with each other.

I'm not saying it isn't nice... I'm just saying that one doesn't support the other.

The premise that America is like Nineveh, and that we should THEREFORE pray the prayer from 2Chronicles 7:14, is illogical.
The premise, and the text, are completely antithetical, and have nothing to do with each other.

They're both very nice... they just have nothing to do with each other.

A. Nineveh = NO BELIEVERS here
This was a country of NON-BELIEVERS... which probably had a ZERO population of believers.
There are no believers here.
B. 2 Chronicles 7:14 = NO NON-BELIEVERS HERE
This passage is a prayer for BELIEVERS... coming to repentance.
There are no non-believers here.

Neither of these points has anything to do with the other.

Both of them are interesting biblical texts, with interesting points... but... they have nothing to do with each other.

So, a better premise might have been to compare America to ancient Israel, a country that had believers, but those believers went astray.

You are of course free to post whatever you like,
but I'm also free to say it doesn't all really correlate.
: )

2. I'd like to caution believers that we don't start viewing Trump as some kind of Messiah, who can do no wrong.

That would just be silly.
He's just a man... a man with plenty of flaws.

A. Maybe he'll do great things for our country.
B. Maybe he won't.
C. Maybe he'll fall somewhere in the middle.

We just have no idea.

We should PRAY that he'll make good decision, and do good things for our country.

3. If the OP was mainly trying to emphasize the importance of prayer, then I agree.
We need to pray for our country, and pray for our leaders.

The OP made some perfectly interesting points, but the premise and the supporting text could have been separate posts, as they don't really correlate.

But I think the intent of the OP, to say we need repentance and prayer, is ALWAYS a great idea.
Believers should always be in prayer, and should be continually remembering to turn from sin.

 

[cavil51]

maxwel,
First and foremost allow me to thank you for your courteous and obviously studied response. Sadly, civility seems to have fallen by the way side these days in the forums so your reply and the manner it was delivered was greatly appreciated.
It seems where ever I post this it is misunderstood. The verse itself was used by many, many Christians repeatedly prior to the election. My only intent was to remind those who did use this verse, to not forget the conditions associated with the verse. Those being:
#1 - Will in the spirit of lowliness and modesty,
#2 - Ask earnestly and entreat of me,
#3 - Searching for direction from my word,
#4 - Abandoning their evil and sinful paths


Your point #" 3. If the OP was mainly trying to emphasize the importance of prayer, then I agree. We need to pray for our country, and pray for our leaders."
Absolutely, this describes what I was trying to convey. My fear is that since the immediate "threat" has passed, people will once again revert back to a condition of negligence regarding their prayer life(s). We Christians (or at least some I have found) seem to be careless about acknowledging God excepting when they are either in immediate peril or become infirm.

Regarding your point #2. I'd like to caution believers that we don't start viewing Trump as some kind of Messiah, who can do no wrong.
Please be aware I do not look to the president elect as any sort of "messiah" or panacea. I would be in agreement with Franklin Graham and his declaration made before each of the assemblies at each state capitol during his Decision America Tour 2016. “I have zero hope in the Democratic Party,” he said. “Wait a second, before the Republicans start high-fiving each other, I have zero hope in the Republican Party. The only hope is in God. God!”
The bible says in Romans 13:1 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God. (KJV) So I am EXTREMELY grateful as the alternative outcome would have been disastrous for Christians in the U.S. IMHO.
Trump is actually the only individual of notoriety who I have seen championing the repeal of the 1954 Pulpit Law, which took me totally by surprise as there was no mention of this by any public or private person up to this point, to my knowledge.
So yes, let us pray for him employing Acts 16:14, Proverbs 11:14; 15:22, 2 Thessalonians 3:3, 1 Chronicles 22:12, Psalm 119:105, Psalm 21:11 & Ezra 6:10 (ESPECIALLY important given the current attitude of some against Mr. Trump), 1 Peter 5:5, Proverbs 2:11-15 and finally Colossians 3:12.


Finally, regarding your point # 1. The "premise of the post" and the "bible text given to support it" have nothing to do with each other.
The correlation I see is that yes, initially Nineveh were non-believers BUT when faced with judgement they ALL became believers, right down to the animals!
;-)
Jonah 3:8 "But let man and beast be covered with sackcloth, and cry mightily unto God: yea, let them turn every one from his evil way, and from the violence that is in their hands."
I can see where that might be misconstrued. However, your contention that it is not related:


B. 2 Chronicles 7:14 = NO NON-BELIEVERS HERE
This passage is a prayer for BELIEVERS... coming to repentance.
There are no non-believers here.


takes for granted that America is a Christian nation, A.K.A. Believers. Sadly, even though "polls" show people aligning with the Christian faith to me that is more of an alignment with societal tradition rather than actual expression of faith. I can give you an example of this from personal experience. During the Viet Nam war they would ask you what religion did you wish to designate on your dog tag. Well, being an agnostic at the time I was faced with a dilemma as I was not a Catholic, Protestant, or Jewish - which were pretty much the only choices you had back then! I went with Protestant just so as to have something on my dog tag and my tombstone other than "FOOL!"

Well maxwel, this has been fun & illuminating & enjoyable. If any of this still does not make sense please let me know and I can attempt to try to illustrate further.
Be Well,
cavil

 

[maxwel]

maxwel,
First and foremost allow me to thank you for your courteous and obviously studied response. Sadly, civility seems to have fallen by the way side these days in the forums so your reply and the manner it was delivered was greatly appreciated.

God gave us the scripture so we could apply it's principles to real life.

It is important, and needful, to analyze and debate the intricacies of doctrine, but it's easy to forget the ULTIMATE purpose of all that study is ONLY to APPLY the scripture correctly to real-life circumstances.

So anytime we can discuss how to apply scripture to REAL LIFE...
that seems like a good discussion to me.

: )

Now, back to the topic for a second.

Your premise (America is like Nineveh) and your supporting text (2Chronicles 7:14) DO both have the common theme of repentance.
Absolutely.
And repentance is always an attitude we should gain, and then maintain.

I would just recommend, for anyone, to use premises and proof-texts which are more clearly aligned, and which more clearly support each other.

Personally, when teaching any point, or doctrine, I would avoid mixing scripture about believers with scripture about unbelievers. It can easily become confusing to the listener, and it can bring up a host of doctrinal issues which aren't even relevant to the point. In essence, this is a good way to accidentally introduce confusion into the lesson we're teaching.

The more carefully we word our premise, and the more carefully we choose our proof-text... the better, and more clearly, we can align these two without confusion, and the better we can teach and make our point.

I would recommend that EVERYONE be as careful in this as they can.
This is a common issue with ALL teaching, and ALL teachers.
It's something we all have to be careful of at all times.

God Bless,
Max

 

[Angela53510]

I think it is kind of egocentric to take a prophecy directed towards Israel/Judah and apply it to a nation 2500+ more years later, across and ocean and never mentioned in the Bible.

Yes, we should repent of our sins, but that applies to all the nations, not just America. Britain would be a great example of a Christian nation, which took the gospel to all the world, which has fallen into apostasy. (Sorry to the Brits, but I think you now what I am saying!)

Why not call them Ninevites? Or China, which has had empires, or Japan, or France, or Germany???

I guess Canada gets a bye here. Even though we are decidedly unchristian, we never had an empire. Or is that the rules of the game? Does a nation have to be great to need to repent?

Decidedly, no! We all need to repent, not so sure about applying it to modern nations. You would have to show me some Scriptural proof that the gospel is for a nation, rather than individuals.

 

[cavil51]

maxwel,
Points taken. However, again, my intent was to merely point out that in 2 Chronicles 7:14 there is a "contractual nature" to the verse. If we do 1-2-3-4, God will do 1-2-3. My concern regarding this verse was that Christians used it but then after the "crisis" abated( so to speak ) they forsake it or forgot it. Merely that. That if Christian Americans choose to use this verse that they stay true to the "requirements" stipulated within the verse. The analogy between Nineveh and America was merely to point out what COULD occur if we relapse into apathy.

To me scripture can be summed up simply. 2 Timothy 3:16 "All Scripture is inspired by God and is useful to teach us what is true and to make us realize what is wrong in our lives. It corrects us when we are wrong and teaches us to do what is right." (NLT) What is in the OT can and/or does apply to the NT believer. Example Joshua 24:15 "But if you refuse to serve the LORD, then choose today whom you will serve. Would you prefer the gods your ancestors served beyond the Euphrates? Or will it be the gods of the Amorites in whose land you now live? But as for me and my family, we will serve the LORD."
Obviously Joshua was addressing the Israelites who had been brought out of Egypt but I have absolutely no problem adopting a portion of the verse and applying it contemporaneously. This being: "... But as for me and my family, we will serve the LORD." The sentiment expressed can also be found in the NT in Matthew 6:24: No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon." (KJV) Granted, the "other" master here would be wealth instead of a deity but it would still be something that would detract us from fulfilling the First Commandment given originally by God to Moses and then iterated by Jesus.
So yes I would agree that careful consideration must be given to what we wish to express and what verses we conscript in that expression. However, I have no problems utilizing OT verses that can be applicable to our situation. If we insist upon that separation then we must needs remove all of the Psalms from our bibles and never refer to them again for they addressed both OT believers and non-believers!
:-O
Angela53510, there was no intent on my part to make any sort of display of egocentricity regarding the U.S. of America in utilizing this verse. What was occurring down here ( from your geographical perspective ) prior to the election was an outright expression of concern by some Christians regarding the continuance of of an eight year administration that was not enamored towards Christianity. There were those who prayed this verse in the hopes of a rescue from that possibility. Any country or it's citizens could utilize 2 Chronicles 7:14 (IMHO).
Regarding "nations" we merely have to look at what Jesus said regarding nations. Matthew 28:18-19 "And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,". (ESV)
Be Well,
cavil

 

[prove-all]

Ancient City of Trier

On the banks of the Mosel River in western Germany, just 6 miles from the Luxembourg border,
is the ancient German city of Trier. The Romans claim to be the founders of this ancient city.
But German tradition, and even the name of the city, suggests otherwise.

“On das Rotes Haus (the Red House) beside the Steipe, there is a text in Latin boasting that Trier,
or Treves, is older than Rome, 1,300 years older in fact. That is when Trebeta, son of Semiramis,
is said to have founded the town.” That’s what it says in the opening paragraph of
the Trier Colorphoto Guide to the Town.

Josef K.L. Bihl writes in his German textbook, In Deutschen Landen, “Trier was founded by Trebeta,
a son of the famous Assyrian King Ninus.” Ninus, according to Roman, Greek and Persian records,
was the first ruler who began the systematic conquest of the ancient world after the death of Nimrod.

Semiramis was married to Nimrod, the founder of Babylon (Genesis 10:8-10). Verse 11 says
that Asshur and his descendants went out of Babylon and constructed the Assyrian capital—Nineveh.

Nimrod who led Asshur out of Babylon and who actually supervised the construction project
in Nineveh. Early on, the Bible indicates a close alliance between Nimrod and Asshur.

There is an obvious reason why the German city of Trier traces its origins back to Trebeta,
the son of Nimrod’s successor, Ninus, as well as the ancient Assyrian capital of Nineveh.

It’s because modern-day Germany is mostly made up of Assyrian people!


The Bible does not mention the word Germany:


The Germans did not acquire that name until the Romans collectively labeled
them Germani almost 2,000 years ago.


In fact, the Germans refer to themselves as Deutsch, not German.
They call their beloved country Deutschland.



“In the years 721-718 b.c., the house of Israel was conquered and its people
were soon driven out of their own land—out of their homes and cities—
and carried captives to Assyria, on the southern shores of the Caspian Sea!

And then … lost from view!” become known as the “lost 10 tribes” of Israel.
Because scholars and historians also lost sight of the Assyrians!



the Assyrians, when they migrated northwest into Central Europe seperated,
the Assyrians mainly settled into Central Europe, where Germany and Austria
are located today.