I would second what Grace777 has said. There is more of a focus on the Law than there is on Christ. They've got their priorities wrong.
probably the greatest weakness of Hebrew Roots
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Oh dear.
The above post is so very backwards - kind of like a geo-centric model of our solar system rather than the reality of the helio-centric model of our solar system: It turns Christianity and God's relationship with us as inside out as the following illustration turns the concept of the solar system inside out. The picture is recognizable, but is totally false and unworkable when measured by reality.
My dear MacBestus, God does not give you the equivalent of a puppy in His salvation for you, that you then have to feed and train - YOU are the puppy!
God rescues you, God adopts you, God nurtures you, God trains you! God provides for all of that in Christ - Christ in you, the hope of glory!
As you learn of the faithfulness and provision of God for you, just as a puppy well loved and cared for becomes a faithful companion for its master, so also it is with us, except that our relationship is so much more - not as a dog and its master, but as sons and daughters adopted by our Father King \o/! (that's a little person raising their arms in praise - I think you had asked what that symbol meant earlier) And we don't protect our Master, as a dog would, our Master protects us!
When one believes in Christ, three things happen:
- They receive the complete forgiveness of sins - every sin, once for all, punished and paid for at the Cross by Christ Jesus.
- They receive the gift of God's righteousness in Christ - not us made better, but us made NEW - God's righteousness, which cannot be improved upon (because it is inherently perfect), nor can it be tainted (because it is inherently perfect).
- They receive the Life of Christ - Eternal Life - which is not our lives made longer, but His Life actually given to us, indwelling us. His Life has no beginning and no end and is His gift to us - the gift of Eternal Life.
Your second example of the two parents, each with a different method for caring for their child, is also deeply flawed. As the parents of seven children, ages 20 down to 7, my husband and I have a bit of experience (with good fruit) in this area.
- Grace does not simply 'forgive' a 'soiled nappy', Grace cleans and redresses the child - time after time after time after time after time. I can tell you that there is great opportunity for tenderness and love to communicated between parent and child during those times - though they can sometimes be very messy endeavors! This is a season, and the messes are many. As a child matures, their messes change, ha! From nappies (diapers for our American friends) to crayon drawings where they shouldn't be to mud tracked in to, well, you name it, children are very creative in the messes they can create! And as offspring go from infant to child to adolescent, to young adult, their messes become less concrete and more abstract. Tenderness and love are ever needed though, even though the nature of the messes changes.
- As the child matures, Grace rejoices!
- Grace trains the child - not as punishment for their past, but as training for their future. That is the true nature of discipline, not a reward/punishment system!
- The life that is in the child naturally seeks to walk, talk, learn - and love!
The wise parent will pick up a child when they fall, encourage them and build them up to try again. They will lovingly discipline (again, train for the future, not punish for the past) their child, providing instruction, exercise, and freedom to walk in and practice the things they've learned without fear of punishment when they may fail.
They will also recognize when a child just needs to be loved on and nurtured and have rest - the greatest growth happens when a child is at rest - did you know that?
- There of course will be 'house rules' in any home. They are for the protection of the child and often the family as a whole.
Law - specifically God's Law, as it is written, is not for the child of God, but for the nation of Israel. Death or the putting out of Israel were consequences for breaking God's Law. Is that how we treat our children? No.
Grace loves, provides for and trains the child, and gives the child the freedom to make their choices. The Prodigal is a masterful picture of this. The Prodigal's father is a profound picture of Grace. Consequences are the fruit of the Prodigal's behavior; Grace welcomes him home as a son in spite of his behavior, not restoring him as a son, but recognizing him as a son, and joyfully providing all (provision, training, love) that sonship enjoys.
Now, let's get back to salvation by Grace and maintaining it by 'doing our best' to keep the Law.
Does God require our best or perfection?
If God required just our best, then why bother with the Cross? Wouldn't our 'best efforts' have been adequate?
Now . . .
What does Law produce?
What does Grace and the Spirit Who lives in the believer produce?
Note that people sin under Law; people sin under Grace.
Yet according to the Scriptures, the Law keeping approach has the exact opposite of the desired effect (a reduction in sinning):
Law was given to increase sinning:
Romans 5:20
20 The law was brought in so that the trespass might increase.
Law stirs up sinning:
Romans 7:7-8
7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! On the contrary, I would not have known sin except through the law. For I would not have known covetousness unless the law had said, “You shall not covet.” 8 But sin, taking opportunity by the commandment, produced in me all manner of evil desire. For apart from the law sin was dead.
Law produces death:
Romans 7:9-11
9 I was alive once without the law, but when the commandment came, sin revived and I died. 10 And the commandment, which was to bring life, I found to bring death. 11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it [the commandment] killed me.
Law produces fruit unto death:
Romans 7:5
5 For when we were in the flesh, the sinful passions which were aroused by the law were at work in our members to bear fruit to death.
Law is the power of sin:
1 Corinthians 15:56
56 The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law.
What do Grace and the Spirit produce (Team Grace)?
Grace teaches us godliness:
Titus 2:11-14
11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men. 12 It [grace] teaches us to say “No” to ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright and godly lives in this present age, 13 while we wait for the blessed hope—the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ, 14 who gave himself for us to redeem us from all wickedness and to purify for himself a people that are his very own, eager to do what is good.
The Spirit produces life:
Romans 8:5-6
5 Those who live according to the sinful nature have their minds set on what that nature desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires. 6 The mind of sinful man is death, but the mind controlled by the Spirit is life and peace; (see also Romans 12:1-2, 2 Corinthians 10:4-6, and Ephesians 6:14-17)
The Spirit produces the Fruits of the Spirit:
Galatians 5:22-25
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. 24 Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the sinful nature with its passions and desires. 25 Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit.
Now, while Grace would allow me to continue on this thread today, natural consequences of not being ready for our next trip regarding our move would teach me a hard lesson, ha. I wish I could spend more time here, but simply cannot. My prayer for you and those reading this thread is that you would have a revelation of just what the Perfection and Permanence of Christ's High Priesthood means for believers on a minute-to-minute basis, and that you would have a revelation of God's great love and provision not only of His salvation for you, but of His Life in you and what that means.
Grace and peace to you,
-JGIG
You missed it, MacBestus. Read it again. YOU are the puppy =).
Gee, I didn't know we were in competition, ha!
Your sarcasm is noted.
So is your avoidance of what the Scriptures say that the Law produces in us VS what Grace produces in us. You have not dealt with what Scripture says about that. Nor have you dealt with the implications of the Perfect, Permanent High Priesthood of Christ.
And spiritual adultery is when we who are in Christ go back to Law. Romans 7:4-6 is clear that we who are in Christ must die to the Law to be joined to another, He Who was raised from the dead, in order to bear fruit from God. If you have not died to the Law, you cannot bear the Fruit of God, according to the Scriptures.
No, MacBestus, we don't break up the Law, we have died to it. The commandments after the Cross are to believe on the One God has sent and to love one another (1 John 3:23). It's simple. It's the Fruit of God's Spirit.
Torah folk, on the other hand, have gone back to the flesh, and say they are 'Torah obedient', when in reality, you are not keeping the Law as God gave it, but a law of your own creation - a watered-down, keep-able version. You claim the Feasts, days, and dietary laws, but shun sacrifices claiming the Priesthood of Christ, when His Priesthood makes the entire Law obsolete.
Christ and His Perfect, Permanent High Priesthood does not leave a moral vacuum, however, as Torah folk like to claim, often asking, "So it's okay to murder, then?!" Does love murder? Steal? Cheat? etc. etc. etc. No, love does none of those things, so your accusations are baseless and shameful. We do not hold to a 'sin doctrine', but to Christ in us, the hope of glory \o/!
-JGIG
The Pharisees were trying to live as God commanded according to the law, too.
They thought they were pleasing to God and obedient.
But they weren't.
It wasn't just because they had a wrong understanding of what the law said. Its because everyone who works at the law in their own understanding commits the same mistake, just in different ways. They work at it in their own understanding in their own strength stubbornly sure that is what God wants. This is exactly what the Pharisees and Jews of today do as well.
Romans 9:31-32
[FONT="]31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.[/FONT]
[FONT="]32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;
Galatians 3:11-12
[/FONT]
[FONT="]11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.[/FONT]
[FONT="]12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.
I was confused about this at first, too. How could I be obedient to God and pleasing to Him if I wasn't working at being obedient and pleasing according to what the law said?
I finally realized, or it was revealed to me is a better way of putting it, that the work of God is the only work that is making me obedient and pleasing to Him.
And that's what repentance REALLY is. Turning away from yourself and all of the things you think you know and turning to Christ, and Christ alone. This can't really be taught one to another, I am convinced. It doesn't make sense to the carnal mind. It is only revealed by Christ to His People.
[/FONT]
M
MacBestus
Guest
I do not know which HRM assemblies you have attended, if any, to have this opinion. That would be strange as ee don't worship the law as important as it is. We worship the Father and the Son. Although I am sure there are some, I have personally never attended one that was law centric.. I suppose it it is like a Pentecostal assembly that puts too much emphasis on tongues. They are out there, but that is not the only thing Pentecostal movement teaches... No matter what people think. And do those assemblies are rare.
Most Hebrew Roots assemblies have a longer worship day than mainstream Christian Churches. Usually they start off with gathering somewhere on Sabbath morning. There is kind of a relaxed fellowship time. Then there are periods of worship interspersed with more fellowship breaks. The different worship periods feel more like a bible study than a sermon. There are usually more people involved in leading worship. Some of the things that you will always find is Torah Reading with the goal of reading all of torah every year. There will also be readings from psalms, proverbs, and another portion of the old testament. There will also be Gospel readings and readings from the New testament.
Every hebrew roots assembly I have attended has done these things.
I have also attended groups that include sermons, Davidic dancing and other things in addition.
I guess you were just attending an unusual HRM assembly, or if you have not been to one, repeating misconceptions.
(just an observation, here)
actual emphasis is sometimes different from what would be expected from the theology.
I see in your post that you say, '... Torah Reading with the goal of reading all of torah every year.'
you don't mention this goal for the Gospels.
maybe your fellowship has the same goal for both... but notice where your post places the emphasis.
M
MacBestus
Guest
Thank you Dan. That is a good observation. I was not emphasising so much as explaining the things that are different. The entire gospel is usually gone through several times in a year as it is less than half the size of Torah. Also the Gospels are read in their entirety in assembly. A rarity in Christian churches which focus on liturgy. Some do it but few. Hebrew Roots is about Messiah. It seems law centric to outsiders because HRM adherents care about learning the law. And trying to walk in messiah. As he walked. This is the parts most new HRM know the least about. So they spend more time learning and talking about it thaan people who believe it a sin do. The focus of HRM is MESSIAH not self. Now you know.
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I was just making an observation about the emphasis in your post.
when people have an unconscious bias... well, that's just it... they're unaware of it...
often they will go to great lengths to show it isn't there.
M
MacBestus
Guest
Thank you for this comment Grandpa. It gives me a chance to correct a common error that I used to subscribe to myself when I taught the ain doctrine.
"The Pharisees were trying to live as God commanded according to the law, too."
This is the first part. The Pharisees were NOT trying to live according to the Law of YHWH as given through Moses in the Torah. They were trying to follow the laws of the Talmud!! The religion of the JEWS, not the TORAH.
The Master corrected them for it.
One place was in
Matthew 15:*1**Then came to Yahushua scribes and Pharisees, which were of Jerusalem, saying,
2**Why do thy disciples transgress the tradition of the elders? for they wash not their hands when they eat bread.
(This is rabbinic addition and not from Torah. I have heard sermons many times ascribing it to the "Mosaic Law" that is error. ..you can see this erroneous addition to the Law as taught by modern Pharisees here : https://youtu.be/QqIdLA_MkCI
Btw it is not considered a slur to be referred to as a Pharisee by Jews as it is by Christians. They embrace it. )
*3**But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of Elohim by your tradition?
(Teachings of the Jews. Talmud etc.)
*4**For Elohim commanded, saying, Honour thy father and mother: and, He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death.
*5**But ye say, Whosoever shall say to his father or his mother, It is a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me;
*6**And honour not his father or his mother, he shall be free. Thus have ye made the commandment of*יהוה*of none effect by your tradition.
*7**Ye hypocrites, well did Isaiah prophesy of you, saying,
*8**This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.
(This puts a reply to the.next line in your comment.)
*9**But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
(Such additions to Christian worship such as the addition of Easter and Christmas and Sunday Worship and more. This is a form of Pharisee teaching.)
*10**And he called the multitude, and said unto them, Hear, and understand:
*11**Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man; but that which cometh out of the mouth, this defileth a man.
(Be very worried when you do and teach things that are not commanded.or even are condemned in the Bible. That is a more honest definition of spiritual adultery... Adding in things from other faiths and saying they are of our Messiah. That is forbidden in the Old Testament too.)
*12**Then came his disciples, and said unto him, Knowest thou that the Pharisees were offended, after they heard this saying?
(First case of political correctness?)
*13**But he answered and said, Every plant, which my heavenly Father hath not planted, shall be rooted up.
(Doesn't sound like fun...)
*14**Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.
*15**Then answered Kepha and said unto him, Declare unto us this parable.
(Peter even wanted to be sure the Pharisees lifestyle was in error. It was.all They knew. They had learned it their whole lives. They were the first believers to say "truly we have inherited lies")
*16**And Yahushua said, Are ye also yet without understanding?
*17**Do not ye yet understand, that whatsoever entereth in at the mouth goeth into the belly, and is cast out into the draught?
*18**But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man.
(Do you have a heart for living in YHWH'S way? Or are you following YOUR heart? Remember the disciples called living as Yahshua walked... The Way. And he KEPT Torah)
*19**For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:
(Better not to be following YOUR heart. Better to be a man after YHWH'S heart like David who kept Torah imperfectly but was granted Grace)
*20**These are the things which defile a man: but to eat with unwashen hands defileth not a man.
You continue:
"They thought they were pleasing to God and obedient.
But they weren't."
See above...especially 8
"It wasn't*just*because they had a wrong understanding of what the law said. Its because*everyone*who works at the law in their own understanding commits the same mistake, just in different ways. They work at it in their own understanding in their own strength stubbornly sure that is what God wants. "
The above verses shows (among many other verses) what not only a Judaizer is but what the pharisees did. They add to scripture their own rules traditions and customs. The law is not hard to understand. It is hard to misinterpret! As Far as what our Father wants... He told us... He took months explaining it in detail to Moses. He protected the writing from tampering. He even sent his son to show us how to live it. And then to take the wrap for our failure.
"This is*exactly*what the Pharisees and Jews of today do as well."
You are right there
Romans 9:31-32
31*But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
32*Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;
Exactly. Salvation is not by Works. It is by Faith.
Galatians 3:11-12
11*But that*no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
12*And*the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.
Again. Salvation verses. Exactly. Salvation is a gift.
Reward however is by merit.
You continue...
"I was confused about this at first, too. How could I be obedient to God and pleasing to Him if I wasn't working at being obedient and pleasing according to what the law said?"
Great Question! Answered in Matthew 5 among other places by Messiah himself.
Matthew 5:16**Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.
(Which are good works? Living as we are taught is right? Or contradicting it?)
*17**Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
(We have already taken this back to the Greek... Fulfill does not mean finish)
*18**For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
(Heaven and earth are to pass away at the end of the millennium. 1000 years after the second coming! See revelations.)
*19**Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
(Read that through a couple times)
*20**For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.
(What did they do? Add to torah! Put their laws above YHWH'S. Place a yoke of extra rules upon the shoulders of ISRAEL. RIGHTEOUSNESS is living Right. Torah is the instructions in this. Yahushua is the example.)
"I finally realized, or it was revealed to me is a better way of putting it, that the work of God is the only work that is making me obedient and pleasing to Him."
True.
"And that's what repentance REALLY is. Turning away from yourself and all of the things you think you know and turning to Christ, and Christ alone. This can't really be taught one to another, I am convinced. It doesn't make sense to the carnal mind. It is only revealed by Christ to His People."
Repentance truly is turning to messiah and being broken from your guilt in your sin. Knowing he forgives you. And going forth to try and sin no more.
M
MacBestus
Guest
M
MacBestus
Guest
I am not ignoring you. I will respond to this. I need to put together a reply that simply explains the Melchizedek priesthood. I feel perhaps you havent studied it based on some of the things you say. Don't worry sister. You will live through it.
but. i need to put the phone down for a bit.
it's no laughing matter
people are unaware of an unconscious bias.
PSALMS 1:1 Blessed is the person who does not follow the advice of wicked people, take the path of sinners,
or join the company of mockers.
M
MacBestus
Guest
Your right.
It is no laughing matter.
I thank you for your warning from modern psychological lore. Here is another. We most often recognize our faults in others but not in ourselves.
Your comment cuts both ways in this thread.
As does your Psalm.
It is also telling that of all the mocking that has been put forth in this thread you choose that comment to point it out.
Here is another psalm for you.
Psalm 19:*7**The law of*יהוה*is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of*יהוה*is sure, making wise the simple.
*8**The statutes of*יהוה*are right, rejoicing the heart: the commandment of*יהוה*is pure, enlightening the eyes.
*9**The fear of*יהוה*is clean, enduring for ever: the judgments of*יהוה*are true and righteous altogether.
*10**More to be desired are they than gold, yea, than much fine gold: sweeter also than honey and the honeycomb.
*11**Moreover by them is thy servant warned: and in keeping of them there is great reward.
*12**Who can understand his errors? cleanse thou me from secret faults.
Interesting right?
Here is another couple pieces of HRM worship service you should probably know.
Although the Torah is referred to as the law most usually in English... A more correct translation is probably the Instruction. And although more than twice as long as the gospels there are about 800 sentences referring to actual commands. The majority of it is about the Messiah. If you were to spread out these commands equally Throughout most versions torah it would be approximately 2 per page. Messianic sentences would be about 3 per page. The Torah is more about Messiah than rules for all it is called the law in English.
Here is another fact. HRM believers often talk amongst themselves that the only thing people from the other churches want to talk about with them is the law. Much like mormons say people from other churches always want to talk about polygamy...even though the mainline LDS hasn't practiced it in years.
Human nature. Isolate the different. If Torah was just 800 sentences long. If it was only the commandments, it would be covered weekly not once a year.
Torah is about Messiah. It was, with the addition of the prophets, the majority of what the disciples used to teach messiah.
You people have been constantly mocking Torah in the couple weeks I have been with you.
You offer the same verses as proof texts from paul without ever disproving Peters warning.
Without ever explaining why Paul isn't contradicting himself in my argument yet is bouncing around like a rubber bullet in yours.
I offer mainline concordance definitions that show your understanding in error. You ignore these. Yet when others produce heretical documents that don't align with scripture, they are given a bye.
And most shockingly, the messiahs own words and walk are somehow inferior to your understanding (in error I must point out) of what Paul said, as if he somehow over ruled messiah. As if he could.
I have shown several times what the bible refers to a Judaizer...yet you really need to believe that it is anyone who thinks we should walk as messiah and paul both did..following Torah.
When the question of unclean meats came up. The only proof text for the Sin Doctrine side given was Peter s vision in Acts 10. Even though Acts States this is about allowing gentiles into the assembly. And 5 chapters later the council forbid anyone who ate blood from even assembling in a fellowship of believers. A dietary restriction, after messiahs sacrifice. With both Paul and Peter involved, yet I still get a comment on dietary restrictions being heresy.
Some people in this forum will not even accept Pauls own definition of sin and try to make him preach sin.
As for Me. I love Messiah. I serve him best I can. Which includes loving you enough to come here and show you what the Bible says although you plainly would rather hear what churches say.
You plainly do not care about YHWH'S feasts. Which are Shadow pictures of what is to come.. In modern language we would call them drills. How to recognize an event and what to do when it happens. Well messiah fulfilled the spring feasts... He did that during his first coming... But the fall feasts are fulfilled at his second coming. Do you know them? I bet few of you in mainline churches do. But I bet you know all about the sun worshipper solstice festival known as Christmas. Where you teach your children to bow to a tree to receive presents. This is not his birthday festival. It preceded his birth by a thousand years. Read Jerimiah 10. Read the whole chapter. Read about mockery there. It says if you have a Christmas tree in your house you are mocking our creator. It says you are brutish (animal like) if you do this..it says even worse
And then before you say "that is not what it means to me.." it doesn't matter what it means to you. It matters what it means to Him.
We are told over and over not to add in things from other faiths. You may not know the story of the Golden calf... After all it is in Torah. Did you think the Israelites were worshipping some Cow Deity?
No! They thought Moses dead. But that pillar of fire was still there. They figured they ought to do some worshipping. They added in a style of worship from another religion. An idol. Egyptian style. They choose a bull because in Paleo Hebrew a bulls head represented Aleph. They did the same thing as Christians did when they Christianized christmas and Easter. They said " that's not what it means to me. And 3000 of them died for it
You can read it yourself. Most Churches only read verse 4. Read 5 too.... Here they are.
Exodus32:4**And he received them at their hand, and fashioned it with a graving tool, after he had made it a molten calf: and they said, These be thy elohim, O Israel, which brought thee up out of the land of Egypt.
*5**And when Aaron saw it, he built an altar before it; and Aaron made proclamation, and said, To morrow is a feast to*יהוה.
Only YHWH didn t like.it
YHWH told us to keep his law. His feasts. Not the law of the Jews- Talmud. Or the feasts of the jews like Chanukah.
Leviticus 23:**And*יהוה*spake unto Moses, saying,
*2**Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, Concerning the feasts of*יהוה, which ye shall proclaim to be holy convocations, even these are my feasts.
But do you know what they are? Do you know the firedrills for the unfulfilled fall feasts? Ot is it more important to keep the solstice festival with a tree forbidden in Jeremiah 10. or is it more important to replace passover with the festival of the bare breasted goddess of fertility who changed a bird into an egg laying rabbit to prove her divinity. And that still bears her name of Easter...eggs dyed in the blood of slaughtered infants has been replaced by food dye. But at least one denomination requires only red dye be used. It is now called "the holiest day of the year and is celebrated by eating forbidden swine meat in Churches. And again predated his death by a thousand years. Yet I am the "mocker".
Again.
Thank you for this comment Grandpa. It gives me a chance to correct a common error that I used to subscribe to myself when I taught the ain doctrine.
"The Pharisees were trying to live as God commanded according to the law, too."
This is the first part. The Pharisees were NOT trying to live according to the Law of YHWH as given through Moses in the Torah. They were trying to follow the laws of the Talmud!! The religion of the JEWS, not the TORAH.
The Master corrected them for it.
One place was in
Matthew 15:*1**Then came to Yahushua scribes and Pharisees, which were of Jerusalem, saying,
2**Why do thy disciples transgress the tradition of the elders? for they wash not their hands when they eat bread.
(This is rabbinic addition and not from Torah. I have heard sermons many times ascribing it to the "Mosaic Law" that is error. ..you can see this erroneous addition to the Law as taught by modern Pharisees here : https://youtu.be/QqIdLA_MkCI
Btw it is not considered a slur to be referred to as a Pharisee by Jews as it is by Christians. They embrace it. )
*3**But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of Elohim by your tradition?
(Teachings of the Jews. Talmud etc.)
*4**For Elohim commanded, saying, Honour thy father and mother: and, He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death.
*5**But ye say, Whosoever shall say to his father or his mother, It is a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me;
*6**And honour not his father or his mother, he shall be free. Thus have ye made the commandment of*יהוה*of none effect by your tradition.
*7**Ye hypocrites, well did Isaiah prophesy of you, saying,
*8**This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.
(This puts a reply to the.next line in your comment.)
*9**But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
(Such additions to Christian worship such as the addition of Easter and Christmas and Sunday Worship and more. This is a form of Pharisee teaching.)
*10**And he called the multitude, and said unto them, Hear, and understand:
*11**Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man; but that which cometh out of the mouth, this defileth a man.
(Be very worried when you do and teach things that are not commanded.or even are condemned in the Bible. That is a more honest definition of spiritual adultery... Adding in things from other faiths and saying they are of our Messiah. That is forbidden in the Old Testament too.)
*12**Then came his disciples, and said unto him, Knowest thou that the Pharisees were offended, after they heard this saying?
(First case of political correctness?)
*13**But he answered and said, Every plant, which my heavenly Father hath not planted, shall be rooted up.
(Doesn't sound like fun...)
*14**Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.
*15**Then answered Kepha and said unto him, Declare unto us this parable.
(Peter even wanted to be sure the Pharisees lifestyle was in error. It was.all They knew. They had learned it their whole lives. They were the first believers to say "truly we have inherited lies")
*16**And Yahushua said, Are ye also yet without understanding?
*17**Do not ye yet understand, that whatsoever entereth in at the mouth goeth into the belly, and is cast out into the draught?
*18**But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man.
(Do you have a heart for living in YHWH'S way? Or are you following YOUR heart? Remember the disciples called living as Yahshua walked... The Way. And he KEPT Torah)
*19**For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:
(Better not to be following YOUR heart. Better to be a man after YHWH'S heart like David who kept Torah imperfectly but was granted Grace)
*20**These are the things which defile a man: but to eat with unwashen hands defileth not a man.
You continue:
"They thought they were pleasing to God and obedient.
But they weren't."
See above...especially 8
"It wasn't*just*because they had a wrong understanding of what the law said. Its because*everyone*who works at the law in their own understanding commits the same mistake, just in different ways. They work at it in their own understanding in their own strength stubbornly sure that is what God wants. "
The above verses shows (among many other verses) what not only a Judaizer is but what the pharisees did. They add to scripture their own rules traditions and customs. The law is not hard to understand. It is hard to misinterpret! As Far as what our Father wants... He told us... He took months explaining it in detail to Moses. He protected the writing from tampering. He even sent his son to show us how to live it. And then to take the wrap for our failure.
"This is*exactly*what the Pharisees and Jews of today do as well."
You are right there
Romans 9:31-32
31*But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
32*Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;
Exactly. Salvation is not by Works. It is by Faith.
Galatians 3:11-12
11*But that*no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
12*And*the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.
Again. Salvation verses. Exactly. Salvation is a gift.
Reward however is by merit.
You continue...
"I was confused about this at first, too. How could I be obedient to God and pleasing to Him if I wasn't working at being obedient and pleasing according to what the law said?"
Great Question! Answered in Matthew 5 among other places by Messiah himself.
Matthew 5:16**Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.
(Which are good works? Living as we are taught is right? Or contradicting it?)
*17**Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
(We have already taken this back to the Greek... Fulfill does not mean finish)
*18**For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
(Heaven and earth are to pass away at the end of the millennium. 1000 years after the second coming! See revelations.)
*19**Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
(Read that through a couple times)
*20**For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.
(What did they do? Add to torah! Put their laws above YHWH'S. Place a yoke of extra rules upon the shoulders of ISRAEL. RIGHTEOUSNESS is living Right. Torah is the instructions in this. Yahushua is the example.)
"I finally realized, or it was revealed to me is a better way of putting it, that the work of God is the only work that is making me obedient and pleasing to Him."
True.
"And that's what repentance REALLY is. Turning away from yourself and all of the things you think you know and turning to Christ, and Christ alone. This can't really be taught one to another, I am convinced. It doesn't make sense to the carnal mind. It is only revealed by Christ to His People."
Repentance truly is turning to messiah and being broken from your guilt in your sin. Knowing he forgives you. And going forth to try and sin no more.
Why would you think there is a big difference between the Pharisees carnal understanding of the law and HRM carnal understanding of the law?
The talmud was just the pharisees understanding of what the law said, their interpretation of how to carnally fulfill the law.
HRM has a similar understanding of what the law says in that they attempt to carnally fulfill the law as well.
Both ways are against the disciples and against Christianity.
Acts 15:10 [FONT="]Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?
[/FONT]Galatians 3:2-3
[FONT="]2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?[/FONT]
[FONT="]3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
I find it funny that Hebrew roots and SDA and other workers of the law try to distance themselves from the Pharisees of the bible.
Those who try to be righteous by their own work and understanding can be lumped all into the same group. You could change the question from "Didn't we cast out demons in your name" to "Didn't we obey the law and your commandments?" with the end result being the same.
Its not the way of Righteousness. Its not the way of Salvation.
If you know its not the way of Righteousness or Salvation why are you wasting your time trying to follow it?
Galatians 3:11-12
[/FONT]
[FONT="]11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.[/FONT]
[FONT="]12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.
These verses speak of how those who are saved should LIVE. Not by the works of the law. They live by faith.[/FONT]
M
MacBestus
Guest
While that line was more about the responders on the side of the sin doctrine as a whole and not you in particular, BUT that YOU only called it out on the innocuous dismissal of a deflective debate technique. I.e. there was much mocking you ignored until you needed a card to play. And you used it in a weak hand so as not to address the rest of the comment.
I apologize if i did not explain my intention with the remark more plainly in the initial post. But now it is more apparent in its meaning... I stand by it.
Now, would you care to show me wrong in any of the rest of it? Or was the misinterpretedted slight the only the only thing you didn't agree with.
I'm not completely sure which posts you're referring to.
I'm also not really following your train of thought.
if you would like to give more details, please do.
is there something in particular you want me to address?
I am not ignoring you. I will respond to this. I need to put together a reply that simply explains the Melchizedek priesthood. I feel perhaps you havent studied it based on some of the things you say. Don't worry sister. You will live through it.
The Perfect, Permanent High Priesthood of Christ does not point to the Melchizedek priesthood; the Melchizedek priesthood was a shadow of the Reality in Christ to come. Does one live in a blueprint of a house or does one enter into the house once it becomes reality?
Based on what you say, you haven't realized the glory of what and Who Melchizedek pointed to - you're stuck at the road sign instead of entering into Messiah's Rest.
And let me put your mind to rest regarding your impression that I've not studied these things through. I have. For many years. And the most amazing thing happened! The wonderful Good News in Christ that God orchestrated from before time became even more clear to me, and how every single false claim made about His Gospel can be easily put to rest by the simplicity that is in Christ:
- Who Jesus is
- What He came to do
- What that actually accomplished, and
- Who those who put their trust in Him are in Christ
24 Now I rejoice in what I am suffering for you, and I fill up in my flesh what is still lacking in regard to Christ’s afflictions, for the sake of his body, which is the church. 25 I have become its servant by the commission God gave me to present to you the word of God in its fullness— 26 the mystery that has been kept hidden for ages and generations, but is now disclosed to the Lord’s people. 27 To them God has chosen to make known among the Gentiles the glorious riches of this mystery, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory.
28 He is the one we proclaim, admonishing and teaching everyone with all wisdom, so that we may present everyone fully mature in Christ. 29 To this end I strenuously contend with all the energy Christ so powerfully works in me. (from Col. 1)
28 He is the one we proclaim, admonishing and teaching everyone with all wisdom, so that we may present everyone fully mature in Christ. 29 To this end I strenuously contend with all the energy Christ so powerfully works in me. (from Col. 1)
-JGIG
M
MacBestus
Guest
Grandpa. Thanks for your comment. These kinds of replies always show me where I have not explained well enough.
You asked: "Why would you think there is a big difference between the Pharisees carnal understanding of the law and HRM carnal understanding of the law?"
Several times on this board people have spoken of HRM going it alone. Or words to that effect. Yet it is becoming common for the people across the line to do so. It Is not only unbiblical to believe the law is difficult to understand, it is also not the opinion of any mainline Christian group I have ever heard.
In fact the law being difficult to understand crossed my eyes in one place only in 40 years of study. This board. To illustrate, here are some verses from Torah followed by mainstream Christian Commentary on it.
Deuteronomy 30:10**If thou shalt hearken unto the voice of*יהוה*thy Elohim, to keep his commandments and his statutes which are written in this book of the law, and if thou turn unto*יהוה*thy Elohim with all thine heart, and with all thy soul.
*11**For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not hidden from thee, neither is it far off.
*12**It is not in heaven, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it?
*13**Neither is it beyond the sea, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it?
*14**But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it.
Some versions actually say it is not hard to understand instead of not hidden in verse 10.
So the law is easy to understand. And purposely so.
All Christian denominations say so to the best of my knowledge.
Here are some mainstream non Hebrew Roots commentaries attesting to this.:
Matthew Henry Commentary
30:11-14 The law is not too high for thee. It is not only known afar off; it is not confined to men of learning. It is written in thy books, made plain, so that he who runs may read it. It is in thy mouth, in the tongue commonly used by thee, in which thou mayest hear it read, and talk of it among thy children. It is delivered so that it is level to the understanding of the meanest. This is especially true of the gospel of Christ, to which the apostle applies it. But the word is nigh us, and Christ in that word; so that if we believe with the heart, that the promises of the Messiah are fulfilled in our Lord Jesus, and confess them with our mouth, we then have Christ with us.
Deuteronomy 30:11 Commentaries
NASB Study Bible
The Choice of Life or Death
10if you obey the LORD your God to keep His commandments and His statutes which are Written in this book of the law, if you turn to the LORD your God with all your heart and soul.*11"For thiscommandment*which*I command*you today*is not too Difficult*for you, nor*is it out of reach.*12"It is not in heaven, that you should say, 'Who will go up to heaven for us to get it for us and make us hear it, that we may observe it?'…
New American Standard Bible
Cross References
Deuteronomy 30:10
if you obey the LORD your God to keep His commandments and His statutes which are written in this book of the law, if you turn to the LORD your God with all your heart and soul.
Deuteronomy 30:12
"It is not in heaven, that you should say, 'Who will go up to heaven for us to get it for us and make us hear it, that we may observe it?'
Treasury of Scripture
For this commandment which I command you this day, it is not hidden from you, neither is it far off.
it is not hidden Or as the word {niphlaith} implies, not too {wonderful} for thee to comprehend or perform; but easily to be acquainted with, and understood, because clearly revealed: neither is it afar off; it was proclaimed in you ears from mount Sinai, and is now proclaimed in the sanctuary: it is not in heaven, for it has been already revealed: neither is it beyond the sea that you need travel for instruction, as the ancient philosophers did, or seek instruction from men, at immense labour and expense; but the word is very nigh to thee; brought to thy very doors; in thy mouth, and in thy heart; made so familiar as to afford a topic of common discourse, that it might be laid up in the memory and reduced to practice.
So you are kinda off the reservation yourself a bit here.
Torah is easy to understand. Easy enough for a child. And no single item is hard to do....we just don't.
Easy Peasy
You continue:
"The talmud was just the pharisees understanding of what the law said, their interpretation of how to carnally fulfill the law."
Actually no, no it is not. The Talmud is a collection of THOUSANDS of additional laws added to Torah. They even call the Torah laws mitzvot to separate them. And they say the Talmud can overrule Torah. Rabbi Eleazar famously argued against this and lost. The Talmud (including the mishna) and the Torah make up the Jewish Religion, which is a variant of the Hebrew (Abrahamic) faith, as is Christianity.
These extra laws are the yoke the Jews were unable to bear. YHWH said his law was perfect. The Psalmist's gushed over it. In dozens of places. Yahushua said its burden was light. Paul extolled it over and over including in Romans. And bragged about keeping it. I do hope your starting to get the picture.
You continue:
"HRM has a similar understanding of what the law says in that they attempt to carnally fulfill the law as well."
Again, you are quite mistaken. Or at least your perspective is skewed beyond recognition. And this point of view has ridden all the way through this thread in error.
HRM adherents do NOT try to fulfill the law. That is a false witness.
Not only can they NOT do it, it would be sacrilege to try. How could a mere man fulfill the law? That is Messiahs gift to us. He has already fulfilled great parts of it in his first century incarnation. And soon he will be back to fulfill the of the law and festivals and prophecies.
HRM try not to SIN, as commanded. They try to please our Father by following his instructions on how to live. They try to walk as closely to how Messiah walked as possible to bring Honor to HIM.
This is not only vastly different than "trying to fulfill" the law it is also the opposite of Pharistical legalistic Judiasm that tries to bring Honor to man and Supersede YHWH S laws.
You continue" Both ways are against the disciples and against Christianity."
The disciples lived and taught what would be called HRM today. This is non disputable.
You give this verse:
Acts 15:10*Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?"
Yup...TAlmud! Proven by even the most cursory study.
"Galatians 3:2-3
2*This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
3*Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?"
Again this is about the Pharisees.... Read who was raising the ruckus in the Jerusalem council (acts 15) that started this ruckus....the Pharisees!
You go on:
"I find it funny that Hebrew roots and SDA and other workers of the law try to distance themselves from the Pharisees of the bible."
The SDA is not the HRM. They are disciples Ellen White. I do not speak for them....as for the HRM... They are the opposite of groups that add to YHWH'S Word. So there's that. So different as to be opposite.
You continue:
"Those who try to be righteous by their own work and understanding can be lumped all into the same group. "
Yes I guess they could. As could people who try to do YHWH'S works as Messiah told us to do. Or James. He told us :
James 2:14**What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
*15**If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
*16**And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
*17**Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
*18**Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
*19**Thou believest that there is one Elohim; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
*20**But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
So THAT'S there.
You continue:
"You could change the question from "Didn't we cast out demons in your name" to "Didn't we obey the law and your commandments?" with the end result being the same."
Another verse where some attention is needed. I can see why you didn't put the whole verse in. no need I will put it in.
Matthew7:*21**Not every one that saith unto me, My Master*note, My Master, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
*22**Many will say to me in that day, My master, my master, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
*23**And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work lawlessness.
Some versions use iniquity for lawlessness in verse 23. Iniquity means lawlessness. Here is the strongs. And thayers definitions
G458
Original:*ἀνομία
Transliteration:*anomia
Phonetic:*an-om-ee'-ah
Thayer Definition:
the condition of without lawbecause ignorant of itbecause of violating itcontempt and violation of law, iniquity, wickedness
Origin: from*G459
TDNT entry: 22:05,6
Part(s) of speech: Noun Feminine
Strong's Definition: From*G459;*illegality, that is,*violation of lawor (generally)*wickedness:*- iniquity, X transgress (-ion of) the law, unrighteousness.
Thank you for yet another quote from Messiah about lawlessness being not so good.
You yo on"
Its not the way of Righteousness."
According to the Messiah it is...according to Paul it is...I am going to have to ask you how you outrank them?
You also say:
" Its not the way of Salvation."
HalleluYah we agree. As I believe I have said umpteen times in this thread... Salvation is by Grace.
You go on
"If you know its not the way of Righteousness or Salvation why are you wasting your time trying to follow it?"
Because I do not wish to dishonor my Savior, his Sacrifice, His Love, and His command. Because I wish to live how YHWH intends us to.. Because I do not wish to be the least in the Kingdom. Because I do not want Messiah to tell me to get away he never knew me. And so much more.
Then you give us:
Galatians 3:11-12
11*But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
12*And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.
These verses speak of how those who are saved should LIVE. Not by the works of the law. They live by faith"
Actually, these verses are about trying to earn salvation through righteousness...thats what Justified means. Proven just. And I keep saying salvation is by Faith in Grace.
But reward is by merit.
As Messiah said in Matthew 5:16**Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.
*17**Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
*18**For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
*19**Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
Thank You for giving me the chance to spend some time with you in this brother.
our feelings,
please try and accept them from our point of view as B&S
how could there be a weakness in the HRM if they are seeking Jesus Christ and how to
obey and adhere to what He says in the NT???
this is baffling to us in many ways as we feel that ALL who are seeking Jesus,
are on a Holy Journey for the right reasons, even though we know that there will
always be distractions along the way..just our thoughts...
please try and accept them from our point of view as B&S
how could there be a weakness in the HRM if they are seeking Jesus Christ and how to
obey and adhere to what He says in the NT???
this is baffling to us in many ways as we feel that ALL who are seeking Jesus,
are on a Holy Journey for the right reasons, even though we know that there will
always be distractions along the way..just our thoughts...
F
FreeNChrist
Guest
"Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone." Rom 9:32