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"replacement theology" - what is it?
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eternally-gratefull
Guest
But the Jews are not all of Israel
Actually in the time of CHrist they were, All 12 tribes were represented in Judah, which is why they are called jews..
However, the northern kingdom (Israel) has not been a nation since Assyria destroyed them.. And will not be a nation again until Ezek 37 is fulfilled, and roma 11 is fulfilled.
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eternally-gratefull
Guest
Matt 21: [SUP]20 [/SUP]And when the disciples saw it, they marveled, saying, “How did the fig tree wither away so soon?”[SUP]21 [/SUP]So Jesus answered and said to them, “Assuredly, I say to you, if you have faith and do not doubt, you will not only do what was done to the fig tree, but also if you say to this mountain, ‘Be removed and be cast into the sea,’ it will be done. [SUP]22 [/SUP]And whatever things you ask in prayer, believing, you will receive.”
It was done to teach the disciple a lesson.. Nothing more nothing less
No fruit will be produced by Israel forever the verse says. Doesn't sound like a lesson to me, it sounds like the end of Israel ever producing fruit again.
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eternally-gratefull
Guest
Matt 20:
[SUP]18 [/SUP]Now in the morning, as He returned to the city, He was hungry. [SUP]19 [/SUP]And seeing a fig tree by the road, He came to it and found nothing on it but leaves, and said to it, “Let no fruit grow on you ever again.” Immediately the fig tree withered away.
[h=3]The Lesson of the Withered Fig Tree[/h][SUP]20 [/SUP]And when the disciples saw it, they marveled, saying, “How did the fig tree wither away so soon?”
[SUP]21 [/SUP]So Jesus answered and said to them, “Assuredly, I say to you, if you have faith and do not doubt, you will not only do what was done to the fig tree, but also if you say to this mountain, ‘Be removed and be cast into the sea,’ it will be done. [SUP]22 [/SUP]And whatever things you ask in prayer, believing, you will receive.”
There it is, Where does it say no fruit will be produced by Israel again..
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eternally-gratefull
Guest
[SUP]12 [/SUP]Now the next day, when they had come out from Bethany, He was hungry. [SUP]13 [/SUP]And seeing from afar a fig tree having leaves, He went to see if perhaps He would find something on it. When He came to it, He found nothing but leaves, for it was not the season for figs. [SUP]14 [/SUP]In response Jesus said to it, (notice, he did not say Israel, or reference Israel His context was this ONE TREE!!! ) “Let no one eat fruit from you ever again.”
And His disciples heard it.
Now go back to Mathew. to see what he meant.
[SUP]20 [/SUP]And when the disciples saw it, they marveled, saying, “How did the fig tree wither away so soon?”
[SUP]21 [/SUP]So Jesus answered and said to them, “Assuredly, I say to you, if you have faith and do not doubt, you will not only do what was done to the fig tree, but also if you say to this mountain, ‘Be removed and be cast into the sea,’ it will be done. [SUP]22 [/SUP]And whatever things you ask in prayer, believing, you will receive.”
So I ask again, where does it say ISRAEL (not the tree) will never bear fruit again??
Actually you are incorrect. They were called Jews because they came from the southern kingdom of Judah.
Ezekiel 37 was fulfilled after the Exile. Romans 11 will be fulfilled when the whole church is gathered in. There is no salvation outside the church (ekklesia old and new).
Mark contained the fuller account. And everyone except your small group know that the fig tree represented Israel.
I suppose you don't know what the mountain represented either?
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eternally-gratefull
Guest
Um No, Because they LIVED in the southern kingdom of Judah Read the OT. When they went back to the city from babylonian exile. All 12 tribes were represented.
And they were all called jews.
Could not have been, there are things which are spoken of in Ezek 37 that have not yet occurred.You should know this.
Rom 11 will be fulfilled when the time of the gentile is complete. At which times Israel as a nation will repent, and they will all be saved.
There is no salvation outside of Christ.
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eternally-gratefull
Guest
Oh, I quoted the whole account of mark. it was missing the whole response to the disciples about what happened. So no. Matt was the fuller account
And please. do tell where Jesus spoke of Israel. Not what you THINK it said.. I do not follow men, I follow the word of God. so I could care less what your church or any other church thinks,, That is what the catholics use as an excuse, seems you like to follow them, thanks but no thanks.
so please. do tell. where did Jesus say ANYTHING other than to encourage the disciples. :If your faith is great, You will do this also. if you want to move mountains, they will move. "
Because nothing else in either passage says otherwise. I posted the WHOLE passage.. on BOTH books.
And they all came from the southern kingdom
. Ezekiel 37 was all fulfilled after the exile up to the coming of Jesus. I KNOW THIS.
The ALL ISRAEL which will be saved is the WHOLE CHURCH (Rom 11.12-24), the gentiles being incorporated into Israel.
The whole unbelieving nation of Israel will never be saved,
On that we are agreed.
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eternally-gratefull
Guest
And they all came from the southern kingdom
Not the representatives of the other 10 tribes. Many went to Judah when Syria attacked.
Well I know this..
This did not happen then.
I will take the children of Israel from among the nations, wherever they have gone, and will gather them from every side and bring them into their own land; [SUP]22 [/SUP]and I will make them one nation in the land, on the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king over them all; they shall no longer be two nations, nor shall they ever be divided into two kingdoms again.
And still has not happened till this day.
[SUP]23 [/SUP]They shall not defile themselves anymore with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions; but I will deliver them from all their dwelling places in which they have sinned, and will cleanse them. Then they shall be My people, and I will be their God.
This has not happened yet. They continued in their sins, In fact, they crucified Christ, they did not receive him. so please. Rom 11 says they are blinded in part. They are not even united as his people/
[SUP]24 [/SUP]“David My servant shall be king over them, and they shall all have one shepherd; they shall also walk in My judgments and observe My statutes, and do them. [SUP]25 [/SUP]Then they shall dwell in the land that I have given to Jacob My servant, where your fathers dwelt; and they shall dwell there, they, their children, and their children’s children, forever; and My servant David shall be their prince forever.
Not happened until this day, In fact, in ad70 they were completely removed from the land for the first time in Judah's history, and up to this day, they are not walking in Gods judgment or observing Gods statutes. So nice try.
finally, this is not new jerusalem, This is the same land there fathers lived in, So it is earthly Israel or Jerusalem, or whatever you want to call it.
what you CLAIM you KNOW, and what God says are two different things..
WRONG, Paul did not spend a whole chapter trying to seperate believing Isreal from Believing Gentile only to say they are one.. In fact he told believing gentiles not to be so proud that they have made it, Because one day, ALL ISREAL will be saved (he did not include them) He also told them, Israel was blind in part. Our enemy concerning the gospel. but beloved because of the promises.
God does not go back on his word. whether you like it or not. His promises still stand.
Well of course they will never be saved.
Believing Israel will be saved. they will not be saved, until they repent, At that time, there will be no partially blinded isreal. As the OT prophets said They will obey Gods commands, they will observe his statutes they will recieve him as their messiah, And he will be there god.
This can not happen UNTIL they repent.
If you would stop making this a salvation issue, we may agree on more than this.
Matthew 21:19 KJV
And when he saw a fig tree in the way, he came to it, and found nothing thereon, but leaves only, and said unto it, Let no fruit grow on thee henceforward for ever. And presently the fig tree withered away.
Yes Saul a Jew,hated the Christians having them killed until his conversion. You could say he was converted from being an outward Jew, according to the flesh, to an inward Jew born of the spirit under the new name He named His people Christian.. Not all is Israel are the born again Israel .
Its not replacement theology but is reformed .Its what reformations do, restore not replace .
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eternally-gratefull
Guest
No where does that verse say it is Israel. You can not even use it as an opinion, because as I already PROVED, the next 3 verses give context. Is context lost on people?
[SUP]20 [/SUP]And when the disciples saw it, they marveled, saying, “How did the fig tree wither away so soon?”
[SUP]21 [/SUP]So Jesus answered and said to them, “Assuredly, I say to you, if you have faith and do not doubt, you will not only do what was done to the fig tree, but also if you say to this mountain, ‘Be removed and be cast into the sea,’ it will be done. [SUP]22 [/SUP]And whatever things you ask in prayer, believing, you will receive.”
It was nothing more than a teaching tool to show the disciples. If you have faith, you can make a tree wither also. You can also move mountains, in fact, anything you ask, you will receive.
there is no way without taking this verse out of context you can make it to mean what your claiming.
But hey, if you feel it is ok to add to the word. that's on you..
It's impossible to debate with a person who doesn't read the bible for what it says.... If YOU have faith and do not doubt, YOU can curse the fig tree also. If you have faith, you can say to the mountain of legalisitc Jews be removed and cast into the sea!
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eternally-gratefull
Guest
Wow dude, I not only showed you what it said, I showed you the CONTEXT..
Your right, It is impossible to debate with a person who does not read the BIBLE FOR WHAT IT SAYS (you want to take a verse out of cobntext, and make it say something IT DOES NOT SAY)
wow. I thought your spiritualization and allegoryism was bad, but this cuts the cake.
It does not say this, This is your twist, No where in the passage does it mention jews. It speaks of having faith, Moving mountains, Causing a tree to stop bearing fruit. Anything you ask it will be given.
Then again, You thin the "land your fathers lived on (ez 37) is spiritual isreal also. so I guess I should not be suprised.
Sad. just sad!
and people wonder why there are so many belief systems. We can twist the word of God and make it say anything we want, there is no foundation.. The bible is useless.
My two cents..
First and foremost God is no respecter of persons. He purifies the heart of a Jew by a work of His faith just as a Gentile .He puts no difference between the two.Never did never will. He works the same way in any dispensation
I would suggest it is speaking of cutting off a false authority. Therefore over throwing the money changers as one witness
and the second witness cutting them off from any further work, as false prophets.
The Jew in regard to the flesh had become apostate. The time of reformation was right around the corner. Reformations restore, It was restored to a period of Judges when there was no outward representation used as signs and shadows of the eternal Kingdom of God..
The Holy Spirit had given the Jew over to do that which they should not of. In effect ,they should not have been jealous of the surrounding Pagan nations in that way. They rejected God as their King.
The reformation simply restored that order as part of the new government. The veil was rent. The shadows and types that where once used the Jews had come to an end , signified by the cutting off of the fig tree.
Mat 21:21 Jesus answered and said unto them, Verily I say unto you, If ye have faith, and doubt not, ye shall not only do this which is done to the fig tree, but also if ye shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; it shall be done.
Above that which is done to the fig tree (no more outward false representation) But adds also along the same line, if we would say to that false kingdom represented by the word mountain, as represented by false prophets, a person should use proper judgment represented by the sea.
Christian is the new name He promised to name His people. She as His one bride is made up of all the nations of the world .
It is not replacement theology but reformed.
First and foremost God is no respecter of persons. He purifies the heart of a Jew by a work of His faith just as a Gentile .He puts no difference between the two.Never did never will. He works the same way in any dispensation
I would suggest it is speaking of cutting off a false authority. Therefore over throwing the money changers as one witness
and the second witness cutting them off from any further work, as false prophets.
The Jew in regard to the flesh had become apostate. The time of reformation was right around the corner. Reformations restore, It was restored to a period of Judges when there was no outward representation used as signs and shadows of the eternal Kingdom of God..
The Holy Spirit had given the Jew over to do that which they should not of. In effect ,they should not have been jealous of the surrounding Pagan nations in that way. They rejected God as their King.
The reformation simply restored that order as part of the new government. The veil was rent. The shadows and types that where once used the Jews had come to an end , signified by the cutting off of the fig tree.
Mat 21:21 Jesus answered and said unto them, Verily I say unto you, If ye have faith, and doubt not, ye shall not only do this which is done to the fig tree, but also if ye shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; it shall be done.
Above that which is done to the fig tree (no more outward false representation) But adds also along the same line, if we would say to that false kingdom represented by the word mountain, as represented by false prophets, a person should use proper judgment represented by the sea.
Christian is the new name He promised to name His people. She as His one bride is made up of all the nations of the world .
It is not replacement theology but reformed.
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eternally-gratefull
Guest
I would just say, Unless God tells us otherwise (like he always did when he spoke in parable) to not add anything to the words written.
Jesus told them what it meant, If he meant to speak in a parable or symbolically, He would have told them, He told them flat out. If you have faith, You can do this to (a miracle, and they did many miracles such as that) He was trying to encourage them, Anything you ask, if you even ask for this mountain to be moved (if it is Gods will) then that will happen.
to try to add anything to it, when it is not said, is dangerous..
As you said, God has never made it easier for a jew, or played favorites. Many gentiles were saved in the OT. (king Davids grandmother was a gentile) The whole gentile city of Nineveh repented and was saved at the teaching of Jonah.
Replacement theology, says the church took over ALL Gods promises to Israel. And makes it a salvation issue.. That is not reformed theology, that is actually catholic theology.
God did not reform his way by giving the Church over to gentiles. the only thing which changed was the people Everything else was the same, Saved by grace through faith (even david understood this)