Tongues???

[presidente]

AND Faith based purely on what you SEE, instead of doing the research to Test the spirits behind what you SEE; is down right disobedience.

What I see in your posts, in regard to I Corinthians 14 is faith in commentaries that contradict the passage, instead of faith in what the Bible says.

Its not a matter of not doing research. It is a matter of being discerning about commentaries.

Paul wrote in that chapter about a genuine gift of speaking in tongues, encouraging the Corinthian believers to interpret speaking in tongues so that the church could be edified. He did not write about false tongues or encourage the Corinthian church to interpret pagan tongues so that the church could be edified.

We need to believe the Bible. As far as research goes, many of us have read secondary or primary sources about paganism in the Greco-Roman world. College students even get a bit of this if they take a Classics class. Throwing up a smoke screen of quotes from the ancient world, then insisting a passage doesn't mean what it actually says if you examine the verse in detail, but that it really refers to something having to do with your pagan sources is something that liberals, including homosexuality apologists do. It is sad when conservatives resort to the same approach to support cessationism.

It is interesting that cessationists' views contradict each other. You'll find that many cessationists who comment on I Corinthians 14 basically agree with Pentecostals as to what was going on. Many Pentecostals would agree with that brief quote you gave from J. Vernon McGee as to what was going on in Corinth, even though he was a cessationist and was against the operation of some of the gifts of the Spirit in modern times.

2 Corinthians 5:7 (NIV)
[SUP]7 [/SUP] We live by faith, not by sight.

This is why we should believe what the Bible teaches, even if we haven't experienced something first hand for ourselves. This applies to the topic of spiritual gifts as well.

1 John 4:1 (ESV)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God,
for many false prophets have gone out into the world.

Matthew 24:24-25 (ESV)
[SUP]24 [/SUP] For false christs and false prophets will arise and perform great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if possible, even the elect.
[SUP]25 [/SUP] See, I have told you beforehand.

2 Thessalonians 2:8-9 (NASB)
[SUP]8 [/SUP] Then that lawless one will be revealed whom the Lord will slay with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the appearance of His coming;
[SUP]9 [/SUP] that is, the one whose coming is in accord with the activity of Satan, with all power and signs and false wonders,

The proper approach is to test the spirits, not assume any spiritual activity is from demons. There are two extremes in erring on this issue. One is to assume all spiritual manifestations are from God without testing them. The other is to assume that all spiritual manifestations are from an evil source without testing them.

The Bible warns of false prophets. Jesus warned of false prophets like you quoted above. But he also said that He sent prophets. In fact, if you look at the previous chapter, chapter 23, Jesus said, 'Behold, I send unto you prophets, wise men, and scribes.' Acts mentions prophets in the church. I Corinthians mentions prophets in the church. Paul's co-laborer Silas was a prophet.

Paul did signs and wonders. He wrote about the manifestation of the Spirit of the working of miracles. So while he warned about false signs and wonders, his writings establish that there are true signs and wonders as well. A proper balanced approach to scripture acknowledges both true and false prophecy and true and false signs and wonders.

An extreme would be accepting all prophecies, all signs, and all wonders as true without discerning or testing. Another extreme would be to reject all prophecies, signs, and wonders as false without discerning or testing. The interpretation you are promoting on speaking in tongues is an extreme view, not the Biblical view. It is characterized by lack of discernment, not Biblical discernment.

 

[presidente]

The legitimate TONGUES that were NOT to be forbidden were those demonstrated by the Apostles,

Like Paul said when he wrote, "I speak with tongues more than ye all" after saying if he prayed in a tongue, his understanding was unfruitful. I Corinthians 14 tongues are the same kind the apostles practiced. There just wasn't anyone present who understood unless someone there had the gift of interpretation.

I wonder how the gift of 'interpretation of tongues' can fit into your belief system if you rely on commentaries that indicate that tongues that needed to be interpreted were false. I don't know if you, or John MacArthur actually deal with the nitty gritty of each verse. That's an ironic observation to make about John MacArthur considering his tendency to go verse by verse. But I've heard him not do that on the topic of tongues, and go into a diatribe referring to pagan sources and contradicting the text of I Corinthians 14 while he does so.

where Unbelieving Jews from all over the known world heard every word in their own dialektos. That is NOT what the Charismatic movement is practicing.

This is a convoluted way of reading I Corinthians 14. There are passages that have dual fulfillment. Ephraim had already been carried off into captivity, with the Assyrians shouting orders at them in a foreign language, exacting discipline and judgment upon them for their disobedience to God, before Paul quoted from Isaiah 28. This is a dual fulfillment prophecy, or a prophecy which was fulfilled in the past, but the situation speaks in type of the future. There are many of these, including 'Out of Egypt have I called my Son', which also speaks of Ephraim. Yet, prophetically, it speaks of Jesus, who interestingly enough was also known as the Son of Joseph.

The point Paul makes from this passage which says, "and yet for all that, ye will not hear me" has to do with unbelievers hearing speaking in tongues and responding with unbelief, saying "ye are mad." Like the passage predicts, "and yet for all that, ye will not hear me." Paul does not say that this is specific to Jews.

In Romans 9, Paul also quotes from Hosea, where he says that in the place where it was said unto them, "ye are not My people, there shall they be called the people of the living God." That applied to Israel in the immediate context, but it also applies to the church, including Gentiles.

Paul's application of Isaiah 28 found in I Corinthians 14 is to the uninstructed or unbeliever. One does not have to be Jewish to be uninstructed or an unbeliever. I prefer to let Paul tell us how he is using the verse, rather than to believe someone else's convoluted commentary which makes a totally different point from the Isaiah passage than what Paul says.

And it is important to note that if someone accepted your commentary, above, so far, there is no reason to believe tongues has ceased since Jews still exist.

The reason they were of limited duration is their purpose for the sign gifts were for unbelieving Jews who would not believe the N.T. was of GOD any other way. But once the N.T. was complete, and once it had been confirmed to a sufficient number of unbelieving Jews, the purpose for the gift ended, and the short duration of the sign gifts ran out.

Limited duration? Once the N.T. was complete? Made up doctrine. Not taught in scripture. Not part of the faith once delivered to the saints.

1 Corinthians 14:22 (NIV)
[SUP]22 [/SUP] Tongues, then, are a sign, not for believers but for unbelievers; prophecy, however, is for believers, not for unbelievers.

It kind of helps to read the verses before and after it. The sign is fulfilled when people hear tongues and won't hear God, for example if an unbeliever or uninstructed person comes into a church meeting, and all spoke in tongues, and he says 'ye are mad.'

And interestingly enough, this seems to be one of Paul's arguments against either speaking in tongues in mass or taking turns speaking in tongues without interpretation. At least it leads up to instructions regarding the interpretation of tongues.

Let's stick with the points Paul is actually making in the passage. He uses the verse from Isaiah in a razor-focused way.

1 Corinthians 1:22 (NIV)
[SUP]22 [/SUP] Jews demand miraculous signs and Greeks look for wisdom,

That's what they demanded. Sometimes God granted them. But the Bible also shows that Paul and Barnabas did signs and wonders among the Gentiles, as we read about in the account of their testimony in Acts 15.

 

[presidente]

OK, my understanding. Certain gifts were given to the church and we are told that they would not cease until the perfect condition of the church. Of course the church will not be perfect until we are with Christ, so the gifts are still here, always have been.

Interesting observations. It kind of reminds me of this verse, I Corinthians 1:7:
So that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ:

The Bible makes more sense when we use the Bible to understand the Bible, for example, when we look at the flow of argument in the same epistle to get a sense of what the author says, instead of pulling from some unrelated pagan source like some commentators do.

 

[Cee]

Okay good. So you realize now that saying tongues has ceased doesn't work. Because if "tongues" is known languages, we know they can't cease. Now to address what you've written to me. My comments in red.

The legitimate TONGUES that were NOT to be forbidden were those demonstrated by the Apostles, where Unbelieving Jews from all over the known world heard every word in their own dialektos.

Here you say "legitimate" tongues. You say this because you realize you're coming against Scripture when you forbid tongues. So now you are saying that YOU know what is legitimate and what isn't. Now let me compare your arguments to Scripture.

1. You say: "Tongues is performed by Apostles". There is no Scripture evidence for this statement. And it goes against a lot of Scripture. Paul says in his letter to Corinthians that he desires them to speak in tongues just like him. And also addresses the fact that they are currently. And the Acts accounts show believers speak in tongues not the "Apostles". Jesus says, "believers will speak in new tongues..." Not apostles.

2. You say: "Unbelieving Jews" are supposed to hear their languages in their dialect. Paul disagrees. Tongues is speaking to God not to man. NO ONE knows what is being spoken unless they can interpret supernaturally. In Acts the "Jews" were given ears to interpret what was being spoken TO God not to them.

Act2:11both Jews and proselytes, Cretans and Arabians—we hear them telling in our own tongues the mighty works of God.”

In Acts the believers are given utterance by the Spirit. They are speaking TO God. The focus of Acts 2:11 is not on the speaking, but the HEARING. They are praising and worshiping God.

That is NOT what the Charismatic movement is practicing. The reason they were of limited duration is their purpose for the sign gifts were for unbelieving Jews who would not believe the N.T. was of GOD any other way. But once the N.T. was complete, and once it had been confirmed to a sufficient number of unbelieving Jews, the purpose for the gift ended, and the short duration of the sign gifts ran out.

Okay so now once again you are saying "the sign gifts ended". What Scripture are you using for this? 1 Co 13:8 is clearly talking about love. Not the completed "N.T." You're saying that tongues is for the Jews, but Paul says he is speaking to God not men. I think I'll take his word over yours.

1 Co 14:2 For one who speaks in a tongue speaks not to men but to God; for no one understands him, but he utters mysteries in the Spirit.

Since tongues is to God and not to men. There is NO reason that it would have ceased and there is NO Scripture that shows it has ceased.

Mark 16:20 (NIV)
[SUP]20 [/SUP] Then the disciples went out and preached everywhere, and the Lord worked with them and confirmed his word by the signs that accompanied it.

1 Corinthians 14:22 (NIV)
[SUP]22 [/SUP] Tongues, then, are a sign, not for believers but for unbelievers; prophecy, however, is for believers, not for unbelievers.

1 Corinthians 1:22 (NIV)
[SUP]22 [/SUP] Jews demand miraculous signs and Greeks look for wisdom,

To address your last points as well:

The Spirit was poured on Gentiles. Not Jews. It wasn't for Jews only. It was the SPIRIT giving utterance to God. It wasn't a gift to allow believers to speak in different languages. This is completely against the Scripture. It was the Spirit speaking to God. Just like Paul explains in 1 Co 14.

Jesus didn't give a time frame on signs that would accompany believers. He didn't say Jews, He didn't say until Scripture was completed. He said THOSE who believe in My Name would speak in NEW tongues not known languages. And not NEW known languages.

And these signs will accompany those who believe: In My name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues;

So like I said before follow Scripture.

1 Co 14:1Earnestly pursue love and eagerly desire spiritual gifts, especially the gift of prophecy.

And don't be a stumbling block to other people who are following Scripture:

1 Co 14:23If, therefore, the whole church comes together and all speak in tongues, and outsiders or unbelievers enter, will they not say that you are out of your minds?

Isn't that exactly what you say are saying now? You think we are out of our minds. Why? Because you can't understand us. Just like people in Paul's day as well.

Stop forbidding people to speak in tongues.

C.

 

[VCO]

Okay good. So you realize now that saying tongues has ceased doesn't work. Because if "tongues" is known languages, we know they can't cease. Now to address what you've written to me. My comments in red.



To address your last points as well:

The Spirit was poured on Gentiles. Not Jews. It wasn't for Jews only. It was the SPIRIT giving utterance to God. It wasn't a gift to allow believers to speak in different languages. This is completely against the Scripture. It was the Spirit speaking to God. Just like Paul explains in 1 Co 14.

Jesus didn't give a time frame on signs that would accompany believers. He didn't say Jews, He didn't say until Scripture was completed. He said THOSE who believe in My Name would speak in NEW tongues not known languages. And not NEW known languages.

And these signs will accompany those who believe: In My name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues;

So like I said before follow Scripture.

1 Co 14:1Earnestly pursue love and eagerly desire spiritual gifts, especially the gift of prophecy.

And don't be a stumbling block to other people who are following Scripture:

1 Co 14:23If, therefore, the whole church comes together and all speak in tongues, and outsiders or unbelievers enter, will they not say that you are out of your minds?

Isn't that exactly what you say are saying now? You think we are out of our minds. Why? Because you can't understand us. Just like people in Paul's day as well.

Stop forbidding people to speak in tongues.

C.

You do not get it. We do not consider the Charismatic ecstatic utterances to be the genuine Apostolic TONGUES, therefore we are NOT violating that command. PERIOD. You are not crazy, you work yourself up into a excited state, relinquish control of your vocal chords, and out comes a the psychological phenomena known as Glossolalia or ecstatic utterances, that are Identical to those done in the Temple of Apollo, a few blocks from the Corinthian Church, or in the Mormon Church, or Hinduism of today. It is NOT the GOD given Apostolic xenoglossia (to speak a language with which they are unfamiliar), which is the genuine BIBLICAL TONGUES.

What is glossolalia? - GotQuestions.org

[quote]https://gotquestions.org/glossolalia.html


Glossolalia is sometimes confused with xenoglossia, which is the biblical “gift of tongues.” However, whereas glossolalia is babbling in a nonexistent language, ...[/quote]

 

[presidente]

You do not get it. We do not consider the Charismatic ecstatic utterances to be the genuine Apostolic TONGUES, therefore we are NOT violating that command. PERIOD.

False statement. Bad logic. Bad reasoning. Reality is not contingent on what you consider. God's commandments are not contingent on what you consider. If you violate the commandment you violate the commandment, whether you consider it a violation or not.

- I Corinthians 12 teaches that the Spirit gives the gift of divers tongues to members of the body of Christ as He wills.
- There are Charismatics who, through faith in Christ, have become members of the body of Christ.

Rejecting all 'Charismatic utterances' of tongues as false is not Biblical or logical.

You are not crazy, you work yourself up into a excited state, relinquish control of your vocal chords, and out comes a the psychological phenomena known as Glossolalia or ecstatic utterances,

This is rude, telling people what they do. What if someone wrote to you, 'You work yourself up into an emotional frenzy, and then post these messages on Christian Chat?' You probably wouldn't appreciate it. We don't know you. We don't know what you do. As far as speaking in tongues go, some people who do so, do so in an emotional state. Some of those people get pretty emotional, or appear to be so when they pray in their own language, or when they preach if they are preachers. But not everyone gets emotional when they pray, in tongues or in English.

You've got some stereotype in your mind and you are make broad, sweeping assumptions.

Cee, do you get whipped up into an emotional frenzy before you speak in tongues, if you do?

It is NOT the GOD given Apostolic xenoglossia (to speak a language with which they are unfamiliar), which is the genuine BIBLICAL TONGUES.

Feigning omniscience is not cool. My guess is that you haven't met Cee or seen Cee speak in tongues. Am I right? You don't know all languages, and if Cee spoke in a language, you wouldn't know if it were a language or if it were, what language it is. How many of the languages in the world that exist today or have ever existed do you understand?

Btw, the Biblical term is glossa=olalia. Some academic fields have redefined this word to be something else, and the term xenoglossia has been used to describe speaking in languages you do not know. I've seen 'xenoglossic glossolalia' as a term used to try to fit with Biblical and academic terminology.

 

[Cee]

In answer to your question: I do not "whip myself up into a frenzy".

I didn't even think I would speak in tongues until the day Holy Spirit transformed my life.

And to VCO: As far as "Biblical tongues" being known languages explain this since I don't get it.

Why do you say Biblical tongues is for people to hear their own language when Paul says this:

1 Co 14:23If, therefore, the whole church comes together and all speak in tongues, and outsiders or unbelievers enter, will they not say that you are out of your minds?

If as you confidently assert tongues is for known languages...

1. Why does Paul say don't speak in tongues to unbelievers?
2. Why does Paul say they won't understand them?
3. Why does Paul say tongues needs an interpreter (if tongues is the interpretation)?
4. Why does Paul say they will think they are "crazy" if it's simply the gospel like you assert?
5. Why does Paul say he speaks to God not men? Yet YOU say tongues is only for speaking to God.

If spiritual gifts are so wrong, why does Paul say earnestly desire them? Should I listen to you VCO or should I follow Scripture?

And finally, if someone told you to ignore everything Scripture says, would you listen to them?

I repeat:

Stop forbidding people to speak in tongues.

If you choose to not speak in tongues, that's your choice, and you can talk to God about that when you give an account for your life. But obey Scripture don't forbid others to do so.

C.

 

[hornetguy]

Was his post any harsher than the one you just made? He made all valid points, addressing a serious problem. Some of Paul's corrections were heavier and probably more difficult for the readers to read.

You seem to have a problem with people knowing they are right. Have you been influenced by post modern thought? Confidence in the word of God is not wrong. Even confidence in genuine experience with God, a Biblical thing, is not wrong.

Do you think sitting on the theological fence of 50/50 in your beliefs is more spiritual? I haven't read back over the thread, but I wonder if you corrected zone for painting followers of Christ as demonic.

Good grief... my response was harsh? I never accused any of you of needing to "seek out the Lord", implying that you have no relationship with him, which would mean that you are not saved. I have gone out of my way to make allowances for the beliefs that YOU have, that I may or may not agree with, and have never made the implication that you are somehow not as "spiritual" as I am.... but I'm harsh? I guess this is NOT a back and forth discussion after all.

And, I would appreciate it if you would stop trying to analyze me spiritually. You don't know me, or what I've been through, or what I've witnessed in my walk with God. Your accusing me of being influenced by "post modern thought" is a clumsy attempt at deflection by trying to paint me as something I'm not.

It's ironic that you accuse me of having a problem with people that believe they are right, when you are doing the EXACT same thing to VCO and Zone.

I'm leaving this "discussion" now... I won't continue in a one-sided attempt to put my point across only to be painted as a post-modernist non-believer, or whatever else you can come up with to avoid serious consideration of my points.

I guess that means (to you) that you WIN.... congratulations.

 

[presidente]

Good grief... my response was harsh?

Yes

THAT'S the spirit of division that I detest. "If you don't believe in the same way I do, then you are somehow a 'lesser' believer" or "you should seek the Lord" as if we have never even FOUND the Lord.

'Seek the Lord' is an idiom for a period of serious prayer, kind of like 'seek His face.' You've never heard that? It's nothing to judge the man over.

The 'very unChristlike' comment seemed harsh and judgmental to me, too, especially considering what he was responding to.

We have someone calling the spiritual gifts of half a million people who profess faith in Christ demonic. How would Jesus have responded to that? Jesus warned people who attributed His casting out of demons to Beelzebub, when He did it by the Holy Spirit, of the unpardonable sin. I think his post was quite mild in comparison. If you really think its 50/50, then why get on his case and not hers?

And, I would appreciate it if you would stop trying to analyze me spiritually. You don't know me, or what I've been through, or what I've witnessed in my walk with God.

You don't know me either. I've only tried to analyze you when you've done the same to me or others. You've expressed your own judgments of me and a couple of other posters, based on our being confident in our knowledge of the word.

Your accusing me of being influenced by "post modern thought" is a clumsy attempt at deflection by trying to paint me as something I'm not.

Well, it was a question. I think you're being a bit thin skinned. Deflection? No. I'm wondering why you attack if you aren't sure. If it's 50-50, and us posters are right, then why wouldn't be right in offering correction. Why would you post what you did if you were undecided. I notice you seem to attack people for posts based on knowing something when you say you think it's 50/50. That seems post-modern, since post-moderns seem sure of little else than the idea that you can't be sure of something.

It's ironic that you accuse me of having a problem with people that believe they are right, when you are doing the EXACT same thing to VCO and Zone.

The difference is, these two posters have been opposing what the Bible says on the topic.

You say you think its 50/50, but you judge those on one side of the issue, but not the other. Do you think it is okay to call the spiritual gifts of other believers (including the spiritual gifts of believers mentioned in the Bible) demonic? Why would it be wrong for someone to call out those who do such things, even rebuke them? WWJD? What did Jesus do?

I guess that means (to you) that you WIN.... congratulations.

It's not a competition.

 

[zone]

I love when people say tongues is "known languages". But then use 1 Co 13:8 to say "tongues ceased" so known languages have ceased?.

what a LAME argument
of course languages haven't ceased.
the supernatural gift of speaking and hearing in them HAS CEASED.
carry on
cough

 

[zone]

what Paul means and says is that these charismata (gifts) generally, as being designed only for the age of the partial that we are in now, and not in correspondence with the future age of the perfect that Christ is yet to bring about. and will cease to exist at the Parousia; their design, which is merely temporary, is then fulfilled at the coming. With the advent of the Parousia the other charismata too in 13:8 will cease altogether: but not simply that the imperfection of the way in which they are exercised ceases, but in its own time, of completion. In spiritual things, those of weaker age ought not too eagerly to aim at what belongs to those, who have reached greater maturity in there spiritual growth. in the end though, in all Christian growth that, which is perfect, comes at death, and at the last day. not before. Therefore prophecy and knowledge, and the gifts or charismata never entirely pass away in this life.

would you like me to dissect another verse...

only if you can do a better job than the above

you didn't ask for gifts you asked for evidence of the dead raising, and you can dodge the truth all you want its there, God still moves us in His gifting. you can see it if you soften your heart to it and open your eyes a little. btw theres a lot of love in them too, might help with that "Fear you have"

uh, no, I'm not afraid for myself, I'm afraid for you.
but if you're comfortable with what you're doing, hey! at least you can say you were warned.
those gifts ceased.
thank GOD they weren't like the nonsense happening today.

 

[zone]

....But here's a Scripture that shows that tongues is for today:

1 Co 14:39 So, my brothers, earnestly desire to prophesy, and do not forbid speaking in tongues...

hahaha.
that passage doesn't show anything of the sort.
it's in the present tense because paul was still alive, and the gifts were underway.
they ceased not long after.
why not just repent of the sinful activity?
hopefully you will sooner rather than later.
but it's your choice obviously.
do me a favor though - if you come out from under the pentismatics' teaching, drop me a line.

 

[HisHolly]

Honest question so I can understand what you believe.. What do we have today? The folks throughout the Bible had folks who operated in gifts and such.. If they needed those, why don't we?

hahaha.
that passage doesn't show anything of the sort.
it's in the present tense because paul was still alive, and the gifts were underway.
they ceased not long after.
why not just repent of the sinful activity?
hopefully you will sooner rather than later.
but it's your choice obviously.
do me a favor though - if you come out from under the pentismatics' teaching, drop me a line.

 

[zone]

.... I wonder if you corrected zone for painting followers of Christ as demonic....

the practices are demonic.
the ppl can just repent (I assume)

 

[presidente]

hahaha.
that passage doesn't show anything of the sort.
it's in the present tense because paul was still alive, and the gifts were underway.

The passage is still in the present tense today.

Before Paul sat down to write this epistle which addressed gifts like speaking in tongues and prophesying, he wrote,
7 So that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ:

Does it bother you that you can't find anyone who believed in your interpretation of I Corinthians 13 before the 1700s? Why didn't native speakers of Greek who lived near in time to the first century believe that way?

 

[zone]

I don't know what is hard about it. A major problem with the idea that the Corinthian Christians tongues were pagan is that it does not work with the passage. .

I said I don't need the passage to be about pagan tongues.
if the disciples (who actually spoke real languages during the supernatural events), were admonished for misusing the REAL gift, how harsh would paul's rebuke be for millions today who babble on in blah blah land?

The one who says their tongues were demonic is calling a gift of the Spirit demonic. .

garbage.
the Spirit's gifts were INCREDIBLE! actually amazing and powerful....not like the sorry excuse (not Spirit) we see in the Pente/Charis movement.

That's a serious charge. The shocking thing is, it is calling the very gifts of the Spirit in the Bible demonic. .

I'm always intrigues to see deceivers' tactics when trying to argue this issue.
president, it's obvious to all that you have no argument when you stoop to this sort of debate.
it's trash.
I said the pente/charis movement's stuff is demonic.

the true gifts of the Spirit I read about were very real and very divine.
they have nothing to do with the junk your ppl practice.

Talk about extreme prejudice against the gifts of the Spirit.....

yawn.
find a new debate tactic. this is awfully lame.
no prejudice or malice toward the Spirit or anything He does - what does that have to do with your stuff?
the two are world apart.

.....to the extent that the very gifts in scripture are demonic. .

wow. can you figure any other way to make that false assertion?

That's seriously off-balanced teaching.

yes, the things you teach are off balance.
and extremely serious. just quit it and beg for forgiveness

 

[VCO]

Okay good. So you realize now that saying tongues has ceased doesn't work. Because if "tongues" is known languages, we know they can't cease. Now to address what you've written to me. My comments in red.



To address your last points as well:

The Spirit was poured on Gentiles. Not Jews. It wasn't for Jews only. It was the SPIRIT giving utterance to God. It wasn't a gift to allow believers to speak in different languages. This is completely against the Scripture. It was the Spirit speaking to God. Just like Paul explains in 1 Co 14.

Jesus didn't give a time frame on signs that would accompany believers. He didn't say Jews, He didn't say until Scripture was completed. He said THOSE who believe in My Name would speak in NEW tongues not known languages. And not NEW known languages.

And these signs will accompany those who believe: In My name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues;

So like I said before follow Scripture.

1 Co 14:1Earnestly pursue love and eagerly desire spiritual gifts, especially the gift of prophecy.

And don't be a stumbling block to other people who are following Scripture:

1 Co 14:23If, therefore, the whole church comes together and all speak in tongues, and outsiders or unbelievers enter, will they not say that you are out of your minds?

Isn't that exactly what you say are saying now? You think we are out of our minds. Why? Because you can't understand us. Just like people in Paul's day as well.

Stop forbidding people to speak in tongues.

C.

JEWS did not believe that GOD would save Gentiles to the same degree that He saved JEWS. Some even believed that GOD would not Save Gentiles at all, and ALL OF THEM believed that Gentiles were unclean. That is what Peter's dream was all about, clarifying that they were to no longer consider Gentiles unclean. ONLY PETER HAD THAT DREAM. Therefore those that went to Cornelius' house with Peter were the unbelieving Jews, (unbelieving that HE would save Gentiles to the same degree that HE saved Jews). THOSE unbelieving JEWS, were the ones who HEARD Cornelius and his family speak in Tongues in their own Dialektos, proclaiming the mighty works of GOD.

1 Corinthians 1:22 (NIV)
[SUP]22 [/SUP] Jews demand miraculous signs and Greeks look for wisdom,

Acts 10:47 (GW)
[SUP]47 [/SUP] “No one can refuse to baptize these people with water. They have received the Holy Spirit in the same way that we did.”


What the Charismatics do is NOTHING LIKE what the APOSTLES did, therefore it is NOT the same thing. NO ONE IN THE CHARISMATIC CHURCHES are hearing what is being said in their own native dialect.

 

[zone]

You seem confident indeed in your obedience to scripture. Paul said 'Quench not the Spirit. Despise not prophesyings. Prove all things. Hold fast to that which is good.'

You seem rather confidence in quenching the Spirit and despising false prophesyings.

That's the problem when ones confidence is in some sort of 'theology' rather than in the word of God. The contradiction between the two leads to disobedience.

I am 100% confident that no one today speaking in tongues has anything to do with the actual tongues in scripture.

easy

 

[zone]

Honest question so I can understand what you believe.. What do we have today? The folks throughout the Bible had folks who operated in gifts and such.. If they needed those, why don't we?

because they didn't have the scriptures (in full) like we have today.
they were given miraculous powers to buttress or confirm the message they had - proof that their message was from God.
God has told them in advance (prophecy/Joel) that He would pour out His Spirit at Pentecost and He did.
WHEN HE DID, this happened:

Acts 2
5There were Jews living in Jerusalem, devout men from every nationf under heaven. 6When this sound occurred, a crowd came together and was confused because each one heard them speaking in his own language. 7And they were astounded and amazed, saying,g “Look, aren’t all these who are speaking Galileans?h 8How is it that each of us can hear in our own native language? 9Parthians, Medes, Elamites; those who live in Mesopotamia, in Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and •Asia,i 10Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the parts of Libya near Cyrene; visitors from Rome, both Jews and •proselytes,j 11Cretans and Arabs — we hear them speaking the magnificent acts of God in our own languages.” 12They were all astounded and perplexed, saying to one another, “What could this be? ” 13But some sneered and said, “They’re full of new wine! ”

 

[presidente]

JEWS did not believe that GOD would save Gentiles to the same degree that He saved JEWS. Some even believed that GOD would not Save Gentiles at all, and ALL OF THEM believed that Gentiles were unclean. That is what Peter's dream was all about, clarifying that they were to no longer consider Gentiles unclean. ONLY PETER HAD THAT DREAM.

It was a vision. We don't know if only Peter had it. The Bible doesn't say.

Therefore those that went to Cornelius' house with Peter were the unbelieving Jews, (unbelieving that HE would save Gentiles to the same degree that HE saved Jews).

There's some gymnastics. I could do some gymnastics, too. We could try to make you out to be a 'spiritual Jew' or say you had some unknown Jewish heritage (both may be a stretch, the first of interpretation, the second... I don't know your ethnic background.) You are 'unbelieving' when it comes to spiritual gifts. People speak in tongues around you. If you stretch the text enough, you can make it fit.

You make Peter's fellow Jewish Christians out to be 'unbelievers' to force it into your interpretation of Isaiah 28 as quoted by Paul in I Corinthians 14. If you would interpret the passage from Isaiah the way Paul interprets it right there in the text of I Corinthians 14, you wouldn't need to do the interpretive gymnastics.

THOSE unbelieving JEWS, were the ones who HEARD Cornelius and his family speak in Tongues in their own Dialektos,

Totally made up. Classic eisegesis, reading a pre-conceived idea into the text. There is no justification in the text for these Jews hearing Cornelius speak in their own tongues/dialects. How many would they have had? The Acts 2 crowd was from around the empire. Why should we believe that these Jews spoke diverse dialects?

There is no evidence for anyone present understanding what was spoken in tongues in Acts 10. If we assume that was the case, we just assume it.

If one's beliefs about the Bible rely on reading ideas into passages in the Bible that aren't in there, there may be a problem with one's beliefs.