Calvinism - Total Depravity

[eternally-gratefull]

because of Him who calls​

Yep.. He called a NATION, (Two Nations are in your womb, One will serve the other, one will be stronger, One I love, the other I hate) not a person.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

we do know something of the purpose of it:

And not only this, but there was Rebekah also, when she had conceived twins by one man, our father Isaac; for though the twins were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad, so that God’s purpose according to His choice would stand, not because of works but because of Him who calls, it was said to her,
“THE OLDER WILL SERVE THE YOUNGER.”
Just as it is written,
JACOB I LOVED, BUT ESAU I HATED.”
(Romans 9:10-13)​

Still have to put it in context.

It speaks of two nations. Not two individual souls.

It speaks of God calling out Isreal BEFORE they were born. Not that God saved one baby and rejected the other baby to hell.

There is no proof that Esau was never saved. And no proof he is even in hell.

 

[Depleted]

Still have to put it in context.

It speaks of two nations. Not two individual souls.

It speaks of God calling out Isreal BEFORE they were born. Not that God saved one baby and rejected the other baby to hell.

There is no proof that Esau was never saved. And no proof he is even in hell.

There is proof of what happened to Esau's descendents -- his "nation." It was called Edom. They found the nation. It was built in a place on a huge hill that is surrounded on three sides with water -- with nothing but cliff there. The other side was impenetrable because of the defensive strategy there.

The ruins show it was never destroyed in battle. The people just ceased to be. Archaeologists can't figure out what happened to it. It's a big mystery, and one that'a amusing, since archaeologists also said it was a fable.

So, God wiped out all of Esau's descendants at once. Now THAT is hate! I sure wouldn't want God to hate me. He's very good at hate.

As for no proof that Esau wasn't ever saved? Are you suggesting God saved someone he hated? Doesn't seem very biblical to me. I thought salvation had to do with love, not hate.

 

[stonesoffire]

Esau despised the birthright. His name was changed to Edom or Adam. Its the act that God hates. IMHO

 

[stonesoffire]

Not sure who the rep came from but thank you.

 

[StanJ]

I know there is already discussion going on about this on other threads but i wanted to break it down at its key points and discuss biblically the accuracy or inaccuracy of Calvinism. I do this because it is such a vast topic to discuss with many different things which tie into each other and it can so often get really confusing to the point where we are misinterpreting someones statements or unfortunately even worse, reverting to name calling and outright mockery.

T.U.L.I.P

Total depravity
Unconditional Election
Limited Atonement
Irresistible Grace
Preservation of the saints

The arguments against calvinism are as follows:

Partial Depravity
Conditional Election
Unlimited Atonement
Resistible Grace
Loss of Salvation

I understand these arent exactly all of it in specific but generally speaking will do.

So to the first point the letter T - Total Depravity?

We are totally unable to respond to God in any capacity until Gods grace awakens our sinful hearts to respond to the gospel.
We are so 'dead in sin' that there is no desire for us to want God at all unless God overcomes our wicked hearts and transforms us to now be able to love him and want him.

Are these biblical affirmations or not?

Called in Calvinism, Total Depravity, but actually taught as the Total Inability of man to choose Truth. The Calvinist plays many such word games. The Word of God teaches that God created man with the ability to reason, choose, and receive Truth.):

Ephesians 2:8: "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God."

Romans 10:17: "So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God."

James 1:21: "Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and RECEIVE with meekness the engrafted Word, which is able to save your souls."

Isaiah1:18: "Come now, and let us REASON together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool."

Deuteronomy 30:19: "I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore CHOOSE LIFE, that both thou and thy seed may live."

Joshua 24:15: "And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, CHOOSE you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD."

Psalm 119:30, 111, 173: "I have CHOSEN The Way of Truth: Thy Judgments have I laid before me....Thy Testimonies have I taken as an heritage for ever: for They are the rejoicing of my heart....Let Thine hand help me; for I have chosen Thy Precepts."

John 1:12: "But as many as RECEIVED him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name."

2 Timothy 1:12: "...I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have COMMITTED unto him against that day."

Excerpt from Calvinism Refuted By Scripture

 

[Bladerunner]

Quote Originally Posted by eternally-gratefull View Post

who said it was true?

If the dead in sin can not chose God, then no one can be saved, because one can not be made alive until they have faith. As Jesus clearly explains in John 3.

Only the Death that are 'in Christ' .....that means that they believed in Christ before they died.

 

[Bladerunner]

There is proof of what happened to Esau's descendents -- his "nation." It was called Edom. They found the nation. It was built in a place on a huge hill that is surrounded on three sides with water -- with nothing but cliff there. The other side was impenetrable because of the defensive strategy there.

The ruins show it was never destroyed in battle. The people just ceased to be. Archaeologists can't figure out what happened to it. It's a big mystery, and one that'a amusing, since archaeologists also said it was a fable.

So, God wiped out all of Esau's descendants at once. Now THAT is hate! I sure wouldn't want God to hate me. He's very good at hate.

As for no proof that Esau wasn't ever saved? Are you suggesting God saved someone he hated? Doesn't seem very biblical to me. I thought salvation had to do with love, not hate.

Are you talking about Edommites?

 

[dcontroversal]

Still have to put it in context.

It speaks of two nations. Not two individual souls.

It speaks of God calling out Isreal BEFORE they were born. Not that God saved one baby and rejected the other baby to hell.

There is no proof that Esau was never saved. And no proof he is even in hell.

God did say that he loved Jacob and hated Esau and laid his heritage waste.....Malachi......not saying he was lost or cooking...I think God hated his actions.....and not necessarily the person...!

 

[Bladerunner]

Faith is the spiritual voice of God and Spirit in our inner hearing. Faith is of God and not of ourselves. Not our own voice.

When God speaks there is always manifestation on His part but if we don't move by it or change by it or we don't respond to the instruction then it will fall by the wayside. We move on it. We change by it in some way.

The Word of God comes to us but we need to change the Word into the Verb.

When the Bible says, "Not of works" pertaining to the flesh and our own ego or earthly wisdom that means that we do something or moved in some direction that was not based on His Voice and Spirit directing us.

What does that even mean........ You simply change the Word of God according to how you are feeling today or what.

 

[GODisLOVE7]

Hi everyone!

I'm new to this whole site and have been enjoying this thread and the other thread that this one came from.

So although I have nothing to offer in terms of wisdom or enlightening others on this subject specifically, I just wanted my first post to let you know that I love reading so many different perspectives and also love seeing the passion we share for God! Thank you!

I'm certainly no expert, but I trust God to reveal what wisdom and knowledge I need at the right time. In the end, I just focus on my Bible and spend a lot of time alone with Him, with my door closed. He hasn't let me down yet with this approach! Lol!

All good intent with this post and hoping to not get any nasty sounding replies! I have to say, I definitely feel a bit shy after reading everyones posts... I'm human, after all. Ah... What would the world be if we didn't have interesting characters to make conversations more engaging!

Whew... First post complete. Now you can all let me have it... Eek! Lolol

 

[Ugly]

Hi everyone!

I'm new to this whole site and have been enjoying this thread and the other thread that this one came from.

So although I have nothing to offer in terms of wisdom or enlightening others on this subject specifically, I just wanted my first post to let you know that I love reading so many different perspectives and also love seeing the passion we share for God! Thank you!

I'm certainly no expert, but I trust God to reveal what wisdom and knowledge I need at the right time. In the end, I just focus on my Bible and spend a lot of time alone with Him, with my door closed. He hasn't let me down yet with this approach! Lol!

All good intent with this post and hoping to not get any nasty sounding replies! I have to say, I definitely feel a bit shy after reading everyones posts... I'm human, after all. Ah... What would the world be if we didn't have interesting characters to make conversations more engaging!

Whew... First post complete. Now you can all let me have it... Eek! Lolol

Nice post. (=
But if you have any hope of not being attacked then don't post in the Bible Discussion Forum. It is a notoriously vile, mean spirited, ego driven gun range.

 

[StanJ]

Hi everyone!

I'm new to this whole site and have been enjoying this thread and the other thread that this one came from.

So although I have nothing to offer in terms of wisdom or enlightening others on this subject specifically, I just wanted my first post to let you know that I love reading so many different perspectives and also love seeing the passion we share for God! Thank you!

I'm certainly no expert, but I trust God to reveal what wisdom and knowledge I need at the right time. In the end, I just focus on my Bible and spend a lot of time alone with Him, with my door closed. He hasn't let me down yet with this approach! Lol!

All good intent with this post and hoping to not get any nasty sounding replies! I have to say, I definitely feel a bit shy after reading everyones posts... I'm human, after all. Ah... What would the world be if we didn't have interesting characters to make conversations more engaging!

Whew... First post complete. Now you can all let me have it... Eek! Lolol

Welcome.

 

[GODisLOVE7]

Well at least I can say I've posted something... Yeah, I personally do not do well with ego driven gun ranges... Best to sit on the sidelines, sift through the information, and gather whatever gems of knowledge I find and bring them directly to Him! He sorts out the riff raff...

 

[Ugly]

Well at least I can say I've posted something... Yeah, I personally do not do well with ego driven gun ranges... Best to sit on the sidelines, sift through the information, and gather whatever gems of knowledge I find and bring them directly to Him! He sorts out the riff raff...

Or you could go to safer areas of the site.

 

[Depleted]

Are you talking about Edommites?

Yup. I am.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

There is proof of what happened to Esau's descendents -- his "nation." It was called Edom. They found the nation. It was built in a place on a huge hill that is surrounded on three sides with water -- with nothing but cliff there. The other side was impenetrable because of the defensive strategy there.

The ruins show it was never destroyed in battle. The people just ceased to be. Archaeologists can't figure out what happened to it. It's a big mystery, and one that'a amusing, since archaeologists also said it was a fable.

So, God wiped out all of Esau's descendants at once. Now THAT is hate! I sure wouldn't want God to hate me. He's very good at hate.

As for no proof that Esau wasn't ever saved? Are you suggesting God saved someone he hated? Doesn't seem very biblical to me. I thought salvation had to do with love, not hate.

2 thoughts.

1. You correctly started off by showing how God hated the nation. and did what he said he would do later
2. Then you went backwards, and took it back to Esau the "man". God never said he hated "esau" the man, And you will never find it, It says he in hebrew an idion which means to "love less" the nation of Edom, ie, He loved Isreal or Isreal had a place in his heart that Edom did not.

so why did you go back to God hated a baby? WHen that is not found in scripture?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

God did say that he loved Jacob and hated Esau and laid his heritage waste.....Malachi......not saying he was lost or cooking...I think God hated his actions.....and not necessarily the person...!

God was not talking about "him" in Malachi, He was talking to th enation of Isreal (who he called Jacob) and refering to the nation of Edom (who he called Esau)

Also. the term hate means to love less. Much like in the NT when god told us if we d not hate our parents, our spouse and our children we can not be his disciple and walk in the kingdom. But Jesus did nto say HATE, God never told us to hate anyone. In fact it is against his character. God said we muist love him MORE than our parent child or spouse.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Hi everyone!

I'm new to this whole site and have been enjoying this thread and the other thread that this one came from.

So although I have nothing to offer in terms of wisdom or enlightening others on this subject specifically, I just wanted my first post to let you know that I love reading so many different perspectives and also love seeing the passion we share for God! Thank you!

I'm certainly no expert, but I trust God to reveal what wisdom and knowledge I need at the right time. In the end, I just focus on my Bible and spend a lot of time alone with Him, with my door closed. He hasn't let me down yet with this approach! Lol!

All good intent with this post and hoping to not get any nasty sounding replies! I have to say, I definitely feel a bit shy after reading everyones posts... I'm human, after all. Ah... What would the world be if we didn't have interesting characters to make conversations more engaging!

Whew... First post complete. Now you can all let me have it... Eek! Lolol

welcome to CC, And your thoughts are always welcome

 

[Depleted]

Esau despised the birthright. His name was changed to Edom or Adam. Its the act that God hates. IMHO

Let's put this in a more modern situation. I'm one of six kids, but, thankfully, not the oldest. My oldest brother got "birthright" in spades this last few years. Dad gave everything into his hands, particularly Dad's four favorite things: Dad, his house, his money, and his alcohol. Dad was diagnosed with Stage One Dementia, and Dad understood what his four favorite things were, so handed over responsibility to the one who got the birthright.

Why my brother and not one of the other kids? Because he knew my brother was up to the task. Which, BTW, is why Jacob should have received his father's through legitimate reasoning. It was the same back then as it is today in that matter.

It's six years later, and my brother is still working that birthright, although most of it has been dealt with. He did what Dad wanted him to do before Dad's mind was corrupted by that disease. (Those diseases, but the alcoholism Dad has has since gone into the lesser-of-two-evils bin by now.) Dad stayed at home and was left alone as much as possible, despite pleading with him to let one of us live with him. (Two of us had the means and opportunity to live with him, and we would have if he'd allow it.) He got lost more than once, but brother let him stay home. It wasn't until Dad burnt down a huge outside woodpile for hours before a neighbor called in the fire department and then had black mold in his garage from never fixing a leak, (and his garage is in the basement, so it was dangerous in more than one way), that brother decided it was best to get Dad into assisted living.

It was a long struggle after that, including driving 90 minutes to Dad's house with police backup to retrieve a gun that Dad was threatening to use, (brother thought he had already taken Dad's guns and bullets out of the house, but Dad had one hidden), before the case went to court. And courts cannot put insane people away without the insane person agreeing to it. (Dad would not, but God changed his mind just long enough in court, that to this day Dad doesn't know he can't be kept in that care facility without his permission. lol)

And when Dad was taken from his home my brother sold what was left of a house originally worth about a million dollars for $100,000 to someone who flips houses once he does the work to restore the house. And he did with that money what Dad would have done -- give 10% to charity, give some of it to his kids (my brother didn't need it, so didn't take any. We do and did), and stockpiled the rest into Dad's investments, given the same brother is a financial planner and has been taking care of Dad's retirement money so well, that Dad has been riding on just part of the interest even during the last 8 years when most people lost money on their retirement accounts.

Brother was the one who had to face Dad in the courtroom to plead with him to get help. THE thing he didn't want to do from the beginning. THE thing that made us all not want that birthright.

So, seriously? What is a birthright? Do you really want that kind of responsibility? In biblical days, the birthright told which kid inherits everything the father owns and has to take care of Dad until he dies. Isaac's included a ship load, (no mere boatload) of sheep and goats. Isaac was rich, but a rich shepherd. Esau was a hunter. Jacob was the shepherd.

Do you honestly think God hated Esau because before Esau was born God knew he didn't have the heart of a shepherd? Would you want to want that inheritance? Would you take it without at least some desire to get out of it? It wasn't even God's herd Esau was passing on. It was just a herd, a bunch of people to take care of, and an endless life of wandering to feed all those animals. To dismiss Esau on something like that requires us to dismiss every son who wouldn't take their father's business like they were supposed to.

If you look at these twins lives without the bias we're all taught through the years a different picture emerges. Esau was the easy-going, kind-hearted brother. Jacob was the arrogant, self-centered guy. Esaus wanted food. Jacob forced the birthright thing on him before feeding his starving brother. Jacob tricked his father into the birthright. When Jacob returned many years later with two wives, some of his kids, and his own ship-load of sheep, he feared Esau was going to kill him, so he sent his wife and kids out before him to see if Esau would embrace them or kill them. He was NOT the good guy. Esau was!

And yet God, once again, took the worst of humanity to make Himself a people. God chose to love Jacob and hate Esau. Why can only be summed up in one line, "because God chose it out of his own glory."

But don't lay it all on Esau's feet by making it as simple as not wanting a birthright!