that brings up an interesting question as to the atonement... but that's beyond the scope of this thread, which i've already derailed enough.
Calvinism - Total Depravity
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that brings up an interesting question as to the atonement... but that's beyond the scope of this thread, which i've already derailed enough.
another problem in people's minds is evangelism.
'why share the gospel with people whose fate is to reject it?' -- is the criticism, usually phrased a bit differently, admittedly..
for one thing, God chose the foolishness of preaching. another thing is the purpose of evangelism: is it to win souls or is it to find lost sheep? if man is totally unable to respond, then doing the work of an evangelist does not have as its goal one man convincing another to do something that he is unable to do. if this must be the work of the Father through the Spirit, then the evangelist is only facilitating the work of God by bringing the one thing that is missing: the word of God, which magnifies Christ. the purpose of an evangelist is to praise Jesus Christ in the hearing of people - and when He is lifted up, His sheep hear His voice.
so total inability leads to that the purpose of evangelism is to praise the Lord - not to convince, coerce, persuade, argue into, move, seduce or otherwise to 'win' souls; that is God's own work. the gospel of Christ preached is a call to His people and a condemnation to the Devil and his children, which we once were, but the Word entered into us and changed us.
so why share the gospel if it falls on deaf ears? because it praises God, and through it God calls His own to Himself. that people who believe this doctrine aren't interested in 'missions' or don't believe in evangelizing is a myth, and here is justification for it on the basis of total inability
'why share the gospel with people whose fate is to reject it?' -- is the criticism, usually phrased a bit differently, admittedly..
for one thing, God chose the foolishness of preaching. another thing is the purpose of evangelism: is it to win souls or is it to find lost sheep? if man is totally unable to respond, then doing the work of an evangelist does not have as its goal one man convincing another to do something that he is unable to do. if this must be the work of the Father through the Spirit, then the evangelist is only facilitating the work of God by bringing the one thing that is missing: the word of God, which magnifies Christ. the purpose of an evangelist is to praise Jesus Christ in the hearing of people - and when He is lifted up, His sheep hear His voice.
so total inability leads to that the purpose of evangelism is to praise the Lord - not to convince, coerce, persuade, argue into, move, seduce or otherwise to 'win' souls; that is God's own work. the gospel of Christ preached is a call to His people and a condemnation to the Devil and his children, which we once were, but the Word entered into us and changed us.
so why share the gospel if it falls on deaf ears? because it praises God, and through it God calls His own to Himself. that people who believe this doctrine aren't interested in 'missions' or don't believe in evangelizing is a myth, and here is justification for it on the basis of total inability
If we are unable to choose God and if we cannot will ourselves to God because we are enslaved to sin, how does 'free will' get left out of the whole thing? I agree that we choose and make decisions but my question is will we ever choose God at all unaided by his grace? Can we really choose God even though we dont want to? and if we want to where does this desire come from? a load of questions for anybody to be served...:0
The hand of the LORD was upon me, and He brought me out by the Spirit of the LORD and set me down in the middle of the valley; and it was full of bones. He caused me to pass among them round about, and behold, there were very many on the surface of the valley; and lo, they were very dry.
He said to me,
He said to me,
“Son of man, can these bones live?”
And I answered,
“O Lord GOD, You know.”
Again He said to me,
“Prophesy over these bones and say to them,
‘O dry bones, hear the word of the LORD.’
“Thus says the Lord GOD to these bones,
‘Behold, I will cause breath to enter you that you may come to life.
‘I will put sinews on you, make flesh grow back on you,
cover you with skin and put breath in you that you may come alive;
and you will know that I am the LORD.’”
‘I will put sinews on you, make flesh grow back on you,
cover you with skin and put breath in you that you may come alive;
and you will know that I am the LORD.’”
(Ezekiel 37:1-6)
I like this question because it is very hard to picture.
It is like saying, if you come to a T junction which way should you go. If the right
way is right, and the wrong way left, should the left way exist at all?
Now if you wanted to create beings who grew, developed of their own accord, of
the random mix of forces, to create a being who could potentially commune with the
immortal, is giving the chance to all at life worth more than the suffering of failure?
I would reply a life of a few years that can become immortal, is worth everything
compared to the mortal, which fades like the flowers of the field. Evil is limited, bounded
by existance, inevitably doomed to judgement and destruction, so the risk involved is
defined, controlled, contained, while the upside in infinite and forever.
And has anyone listened to the Father. Love unbounded, serving, caring, building, structuring,
honouring, finding, saving, reaching out, supporting. Whatever He chooses to do will be Amen,
glorious. I do not see very much, but my temporary understanding of His word is He is worthy,
the Lamb who was slain. It is just staggering, beyond our loyalties and schemes, our desires
and things we fight for, that we even know fade and disappear.
But those who have not been touched in their hearts by the King, it is like a dream, which
patches up a running sore, but not quite, and it still oozes.
amen, as He says everyone who sees the Son and believes - but He also said
"unless you are born again, you cannot see the kingdom"
and
"flesh and blood have not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven"
and
"flesh and blood have not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven"
& v.39 here --
This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing
now this is either universal salvation, or the Father has given the Son an unique gift, countable ((in the sense it can be mapped to the natural numbers)) but by measure, "no man can number" - no man, but the Father can.
so the ones the Father has given Him -- this number?
God knows it?
((what i asked in the other thread, that i think is a "reasonable question"))
& does He know it by observation and inspection, or by foresight and design? before He created the universe, was that a random variable? is life, the universe and everything a cosmic dice roll?
He knows the number of the hairs on my head, and i think it's just the number of hairs that pleases Him. if that's His nature, i believe He knows how many brothers and sisters He gave the Son, too.
For consider your calling, brothers: not many of you were wise according to worldly standards, not many were powerful, not many were of noble birth.
But God chose what is foolish in the world to shame the wise; God chose what is weak in the world to shame the strong;
God chose what is low and despised in the world, even things that are not, to bring to nothing things that are, so that no human being might boast in the presence of God.
And because of Him you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, righteousness and sanctification and redemption,
so that, as it is written, “Let the one who boasts, boast in the Lord.” (1 Cor 1:26-31)
with apologies. the doctrines of grace are inextricably bound to one another.
There is none righteous no not one there are none that seeketh after God.
Romans 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
13 Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:
14 Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:
15 Their feet are swift to shed blood:
16 Destruction and misery are in their ways:
17 And the way of peace have they not known:
18 There is no fear of God before their eyes.
John 1:9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
God is not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance. God has concluded them all in unbelief that He might have mercy on all.
How can man choose? Why must man choose? Because of Adam and the knowledge of good and evil that was passed upon all mankind. Man has the ability and the responsibility to choose. Man is able to distinguish between good and evil. Christ has made the atonement. God has given His word and His Holy Spirit. All man must do is submit himself to the will of God and receive Jesus Christ as his personal Savior.
God will not violate mans will and save a man against his will.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
Romans 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
13 Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:
14 Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:
15 Their feet are swift to shed blood:
16 Destruction and misery are in their ways:
17 And the way of peace have they not known:
18 There is no fear of God before their eyes.
John 1:9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
God is not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance. God has concluded them all in unbelief that He might have mercy on all.
How can man choose? Why must man choose? Because of Adam and the knowledge of good and evil that was passed upon all mankind. Man has the ability and the responsibility to choose. Man is able to distinguish between good and evil. Christ has made the atonement. God has given His word and His Holy Spirit. All man must do is submit himself to the will of God and receive Jesus Christ as his personal Savior.
God will not violate mans will and save a man against his will.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
John Calvin was an attorney and self professed theologian. He was rich, privileged, and decided to create a tradition that would appoint special dispensation by God to the special privileged class that he was member of. Hence his coinage of, "The Elect".
John Calvin was also a sadist and a psychopath. He had Michael Servius burned to death at the stake and ordered green wood for his pyre so that Michael would burn to death very slowly, roasting as it were, because green wood smolders and burns very slowly because it is wet.
Today John is very very surprised how much he burns and for all eternity to come. There isn't a single scripture in the new testament that supports TULIP.
John Calvin was also a sadist and a psychopath. He had Michael Servius burned to death at the stake and ordered green wood for his pyre so that Michael would burn to death very slowly, roasting as it were, because green wood smolders and burns very slowly because it is wet.
Today John is very very surprised how much he burns and for all eternity to come. There isn't a single scripture in the new testament that supports TULIP.
SIMPLICITY HERE: We were "predestined" by the Blood of Jesus to become heirs of God, but sadly most people Reject this gift of Salvation. Jesus was crucified before the foundations of the World. We were not predestined, some to heaven and some to hell. We were all predestined to Heaven via the Blood of Jesus (God is not willing that any shall perish...) but we have to accept that free gift of Salvation. So God planed (PREDESTINED) everyone to go to Heaven.
So do you espouse the Arminian view point? It is akin to Roman Catholic teaching that a man earns his salvation and cooperates with God in the redemption of his soul.
Best we just stick with the bible doctrine of salvation by grace through faith. Faith wrought in the hearing of Gods word. Let's allow God to deal with every soul as He deems appropriate as He loves all mankind.
Let's not create a false paradigm of who is elected to salvation and who is elected to condemnation.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
P
PinkDiamond
Guest
This post is full of unsubstantiated claims. There are equally absurd claims or accusations of most of the reformers. I could include all kinds of vile stories for Luther, Savonarola, etc. It's best not to repeat sensationalism and actually research history from several sources.
Also, not wise to rejoice in anyone's eternal damnation.
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I have read his book "The Institution of the Christian Religion" and it is an amazing work.
Have you read it? Yeah, not perfect, there are some wierd things, but still very good book concerning the reformation teaching.
This is pure nonsense. Calvin thought the burning is too painful and tried to convince the city council to kill him in more human way. So the opposite is true.
We are forbidden to say such things.
I am not exactly a Calvin/TULIP guy, I am more to J.A. Komenský, Jan Hus or G.W.Leibniz, but I can find many Scriptures supporting TULIP.
We should try to understand, not to quickly condemn.
Romans 10:16-17
King James version(KJV)
16.)But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
17.)So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
+++
And doesn't the gospel have to be explained and understood?
+++
Matthew 13:19
King James version(KJV)
19.)When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.
E
eternally-gratefull
Guest
It comes from a knowledge of our fate, which Paul says we already know. And many other things, Like th law. Which acts as a tutor.. It comes from a desire to seek.. Yes God has to help us understand, but the desire must come. God will not force things on us
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eternally-gratefull
Guest
Yes, and I go back to John 3. We are born again by belief. The disciples followed Jesus, But not all believed. The ones who did still had to closer to stay. As Peter said, We know you have the words of eternal life.
God may reveal it, But we still have to chose.
C
CoooCaw
Guest
E
eternally-gratefull
Guest
Romans 1 explains this well
Man knows God
Man knows righteous judgment of God.
If man knows these two facts. man can chose to seek God and allow God to show them truth.
E
eternally-gratefull
Guest
That is pretty judgmental don;t you think? You are God? David killed a woman's husband so he could hide his sin, then took that mans wife as his own.
What makes David's sin any worse than anyone else's sin.
Try to stick to the truth, and let God judge, you would be better served.
And the one on whom seed was sown on the good soil, this is the man who hears the word and understands it; who indeed bears fruit and brings forth, some a hundredfold, some sixty, and some thirty.
(Matthew 13:23)
(Matthew 13:23)
i need to know, how i can become good, deep soil, free from thorns, safe from birds ??
But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
(1 Corinthians 2:14)
(1 Corinthians 2:14)