There are over 6900 languages in the world, and no there is no telling how many languages there have been throughout history. I figure if God wants to arrange something like that he can. Unbelievers tend to respond to speaking in tongues with unbelief. I've got better things to do with my time. Evangelism would be a better approach. I figure if God wants to arrange something like that he can without me having to go to every remote village in the world.
Tongues Again???
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There are over 6900 languages in the world, and no there is no telling how many languages there have been throughout history. I figure if God wants to arrange something like that he can. Unbelievers tend to respond to speaking in tongues with unbelief. I've got better things to do with my time. Evangelism would be a better approach. I figure if God wants to arrange something like that he can without me having to go to every remote village in the world.
Sure, I have. I listened to his sermons promoting Strange Fire and to the sermon I mentioned on tongues and a few others. I never really heard him on the radio in my part of the country before the Internet became some big except for short blurbs.
I got Charismatic Chaos on Interlibrary Loan, so I had to rush around and skip through it to turn it back in, so I probably did not read every page. That was a couple of decades ago.
The strange thing about his conference was the lack of scripture used that actually backed up the arguments. II Timothy 3 was written to a man who lived when spiritual gifts were active. They were active when the epistle was written and after it was written. Using the passage for cessationism doesn't make sense. The gifts were still active after the passage was written. Plus, the cessationist interpretation is dyslexic and depends on the reader not actually understanding the wording of the passage. They used that passage in the conference as a prooftext.
I wouldn't recommend John MacArthur's sermons or books to anyone who wanted to study the topic of spiritual gifts seriously.
I got Charismatic Chaos on Interlibrary Loan, so I had to rush around and skip through it to turn it back in, so I probably did not read every page. That was a couple of decades ago.
The strange thing about his conference was the lack of scripture used that actually backed up the arguments. II Timothy 3 was written to a man who lived when spiritual gifts were active. They were active when the epistle was written and after it was written. Using the passage for cessationism doesn't make sense. The gifts were still active after the passage was written. Plus, the cessationist interpretation is dyslexic and depends on the reader not actually understanding the wording of the passage. They used that passage in the conference as a prooftext.
I wouldn't recommend John MacArthur's sermons or books to anyone who wanted to study the topic of spiritual gifts seriously.
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The irony about the Strange Fire conference is that the Bible actually teaches us to have meetings that allow for speaking in tongues and prophesying.
The use of the term 'strange fire' to refer to unauthorized activities in a church service dates back to the Reformation era. John Knox had a sermon on it. The term was used to refer to certain Roman Catholic practices.
The idea is that doing things in worship, in the service, in church... however you put it. that aren't Biblical authorized is akin to Nadab and Abihu offering strange fire in the temple. I am not saying I agree with that assertion. But if I did, I would find it extremely ironic that John MacArthur would choose such a passage, since scripture does not teach the church to follow many of the traditions he holds dear. It teaches an orderly exercise of the types of gifts he opposes using in church.
We have one lengthy passage of scripture that teaches us what to do in church. There are two if you count a passage that tells us how not to have the Lord's Supper. The passage is I Corinthians 14 (and the other is I Corinthians 11.)
Does Paul say when the church gathers, they are all to sit quietly while one man, the pastor, preaches a sermon? No. There are no instructions to listen to one long sermon. There is no reference to 'the pastor' in the passage, or even the elders or overseers.
Rather, what we do see is Paul saying in verse 26 'when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation.' Does he rebuke them for this? Does he tell them to stop? Does he tell them to sit down and listen to the sermon?
No, he tells them 'Let all things be done unto edifying.' So regular believers in church are allowed to sing psalms, teach, have a tongue, revelation, an interpretation 'unto edifying.' Paul says to let all things be done. It stands to reason he is talking about the things he mentioned, psalms, teaching, a tongue, etc. He puts the restriction on it that it must be done unto edifying.
Paul's instructions allow for one to speak in tongues and require interpretation. There is no mention of 'the pastor' in the passage, but Paul does mention the prophets. They are to speak two or three and the other are to judge. Paul gives instructions about yielding the floor to one sitting by who receives a revelation and says 'ye may all prophesy.'
So these types of charismatic activities are to be allowed in church. But they must be done in an orderly manner. Paul later says 'Let everything be done decently and in order.' This is not the order of a RCC church service or Presbyterian service. This is the order of the type of meeting Paul is talking about, where 'every one of you' may sing, teach, prophesy, speak int tongues, etc. Order involves such things as the speaking prophet yielding the floor for another who receives a revelation. It involves allowing for tongues and interpretation.
Paul even calls what he wrote the commandments of the Lord.
So if someone adamantly insist that we do NOT allow what Paul instructed, and instead follow rigidly a tradition of a long sermon by one speaker and few other activities like a prayer and singing in the meeting, then who is promoting church meetings contrary to scripture. If doing so is analogous to 'strange fire' in the temple (and I'm not saying I agree), then who is the one promoting the strange fire?
The use of the term 'strange fire' to refer to unauthorized activities in a church service dates back to the Reformation era. John Knox had a sermon on it. The term was used to refer to certain Roman Catholic practices.
The idea is that doing things in worship, in the service, in church... however you put it. that aren't Biblical authorized is akin to Nadab and Abihu offering strange fire in the temple. I am not saying I agree with that assertion. But if I did, I would find it extremely ironic that John MacArthur would choose such a passage, since scripture does not teach the church to follow many of the traditions he holds dear. It teaches an orderly exercise of the types of gifts he opposes using in church.
We have one lengthy passage of scripture that teaches us what to do in church. There are two if you count a passage that tells us how not to have the Lord's Supper. The passage is I Corinthians 14 (and the other is I Corinthians 11.)
Does Paul say when the church gathers, they are all to sit quietly while one man, the pastor, preaches a sermon? No. There are no instructions to listen to one long sermon. There is no reference to 'the pastor' in the passage, or even the elders or overseers.
Rather, what we do see is Paul saying in verse 26 'when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation.' Does he rebuke them for this? Does he tell them to stop? Does he tell them to sit down and listen to the sermon?
No, he tells them 'Let all things be done unto edifying.' So regular believers in church are allowed to sing psalms, teach, have a tongue, revelation, an interpretation 'unto edifying.' Paul says to let all things be done. It stands to reason he is talking about the things he mentioned, psalms, teaching, a tongue, etc. He puts the restriction on it that it must be done unto edifying.
Paul's instructions allow for one to speak in tongues and require interpretation. There is no mention of 'the pastor' in the passage, but Paul does mention the prophets. They are to speak two or three and the other are to judge. Paul gives instructions about yielding the floor to one sitting by who receives a revelation and says 'ye may all prophesy.'
So these types of charismatic activities are to be allowed in church. But they must be done in an orderly manner. Paul later says 'Let everything be done decently and in order.' This is not the order of a RCC church service or Presbyterian service. This is the order of the type of meeting Paul is talking about, where 'every one of you' may sing, teach, prophesy, speak int tongues, etc. Order involves such things as the speaking prophet yielding the floor for another who receives a revelation. It involves allowing for tongues and interpretation.
Paul even calls what he wrote the commandments of the Lord.
So if someone adamantly insist that we do NOT allow what Paul instructed, and instead follow rigidly a tradition of a long sermon by one speaker and few other activities like a prayer and singing in the meeting, then who is promoting church meetings contrary to scripture. If doing so is analogous to 'strange fire' in the temple (and I'm not saying I agree), then who is the one promoting the strange fire?
I'm saying tongues were earthly languages ... because they were. Nevertheless, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. Show me where an angel ... any angel ... spoke in a language that wasn't earthly and understood by men ? Where does scripture say anywhere that angels speak a different language than men ?
Galatians 1:8
But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
Paul's hyperbole for tongues can be used where I used it as well. Why would Paul say this if angels aren't going to preach to us ? Sound silly to you ? Yeah ... me too.
Galatians 1:8
But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
Paul's hyperbole for tongues can be used where I used it as well. Why would Paul say this if angels aren't going to preach to us ? Sound silly to you ? Yeah ... me too.
We just cannot understand the supernatural by logic. He has to be experienced...just like the new birth. One knows something has changed within. We are different...thinking about God when before we thought only of self.
God wants us to experience all He has for us.
We who have experienced His Holy Spirit in power, and giftings...want all to have the same. Its just that simple.
God wants us to experience all He has for us.
We who have experienced His Holy Spirit in power, and giftings...want all to have the same. Its just that simple.
The gospel does not require us to abandon all sense of logic and good judgment.
Proverbs teaches us that first we obtain knowledge, then understanding which leads to wisdom. We read the word of God then the Holy Spirit gives understanding which produces Godly wisdom.
Scripture further cautions us to be wary for our adversary can appear even as an angel of light.
2Co 11:14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
Proverbs teaches us that first we obtain knowledge, then understanding which leads to wisdom. We read the word of God then the Holy Spirit gives understanding which produces Godly wisdom.
Scripture further cautions us to be wary for our adversary can appear even as an angel of light.
2Co 11:14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
In an effort to disprove tongues you ignore Scripture that says we are to build ourselves up.
It's quite clear...
If Paul wanted to say build each other up he can:
1 Thes 5:11 Therefore encourage and build one another up, just as you are already doing.
Jude 1:20But you, beloved, building up yourselves in your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Spirit, 21keep yourselves in the love of God, awaiting the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.
It's clear Scripture is talking about individual people. But, you don't want to agree with that because then you would have to agree that the Bible does say to build ourselves up. You keep changing Scripture to prove your theology!
Not to mention:
You've ignored Scripture that says tongues speaks to God not to men. You ignored that it says mysteries IN THE SPIRIT... not in the Pagan... you just keep ignoring Scriptures... and then you post Scriptures that aren't even in context to prove your point. I am addressing the texts that actually discuss tongues - you are not.
Don't forbid tongues - you forbid them.
You say tongues doesn't need an interpreter, Paul says it does.
You say tongues is for speaking in people's language - Paul says people will not understand you.
You say tongues is shown in Acts as people hearing in their language - Acts shows tongues is for praising God not for speaking to men. They heard because they were given the gift of interpretation.
You say the gift have ceased - Paul says earnestly desire them.
You say was it written to you. But you don't use this same claim with any other Scripture, was Corinthians written to me? Was Ephesians?
You say tongues is known languages - Paul says they are not known. NO one understands them.
You completely ignore all Scripture. And then you have the audacity to say we do? My Bible doesn't contradict itself, but you certainly do.
C.
It's quite clear...
If Paul wanted to say build each other up he can:
1 Thes 5:11 Therefore encourage and build one another up, just as you are already doing.
Jude 1:20But you, beloved, building up yourselves in your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Spirit, 21keep yourselves in the love of God, awaiting the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.
It's clear Scripture is talking about individual people. But, you don't want to agree with that because then you would have to agree that the Bible does say to build ourselves up. You keep changing Scripture to prove your theology!
Not to mention:
You've ignored Scripture that says tongues speaks to God not to men. You ignored that it says mysteries IN THE SPIRIT... not in the Pagan... you just keep ignoring Scriptures... and then you post Scriptures that aren't even in context to prove your point. I am addressing the texts that actually discuss tongues - you are not.
Don't forbid tongues - you forbid them.
You say tongues doesn't need an interpreter, Paul says it does.
You say tongues is for speaking in people's language - Paul says people will not understand you.
You say tongues is shown in Acts as people hearing in their language - Acts shows tongues is for praising God not for speaking to men. They heard because they were given the gift of interpretation.
You say the gift have ceased - Paul says earnestly desire them.
You say was it written to you. But you don't use this same claim with any other Scripture, was Corinthians written to me? Was Ephesians?
You say tongues is known languages - Paul says they are not known. NO one understands them.
You completely ignore all Scripture. And then you have the audacity to say we do? My Bible doesn't contradict itself, but you certainly do.
C.
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I think you should look in the mirror you are the one with the self edify doctrine ,it is simply a form of self-righteousness .The same thing the apostate Jews were know for.
We walk by faith not by sight after the things we do our experiences .. The Jews as yourself required a sign before thy could believe they have the Holy Spirit.
The kingdom God does not come by sight and that not of yourselves, walking by sight make the faith principle to no-effect
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:Not of works, lest any man should boast.and that not of yourselves:Eph 2
We are saved by Christ's work of faith not some thing we can do a brag in vain.
Offering dead works towards Him is not a biblical doctrine.