Tongues Again???

[presidente]

My turn to ask three easy questions:

1 Corinthians 10:23-24 (KJV)
[SUP]23 [/SUP] All things are lawful for me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but all things edify not.
[SUP]24 [/SUP] Let no man seek his own, but every man another's wealth.

Now since we have established the words in italics mean that word is NOT in the origin language manuscripts, read those two verses without INSERTING the word wealth, like the KJV translators did.

1. Is it not clear that Paul is forbidding Self Edification in verse 24?

Now read the following verse and I will ask the second question:

1 Corinthians 14:4 (KJV)
[SUP]4 [/SUP] He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.

Paul also gives singing a psalm as an example of an activity that can be done 'unto edifying.' If singing Psalms is edifying, and you hold that self-edification is wrong, then would singing a Psalm at home alone be forbidding if it edifies you?

Paul wrote, "I would that ye all spake with tongues" and that he who speaks in tongues edifies himself. He wrote that he would rather have them/you prophesy, and that prophesying edifies the church.

Here are some ideas we get from reading the passage

Edify yourself----> desirable
Prophesy---------> even more desirable

Speaking in tongues--> edifies self
Prophesying-----------> edifies others

Paul wanted the Corinthians to speak in tongues-- by which each individual would edify himself. He wrote, "I would that ye all spake with tongues". But he preferred that they prophesied.

Greater is he who speaks in tongues than he who speaks in tongues, except he interpret, that the church may be edified. If you speak in tongues and edify yourself, that is a desirable thing. Paul would that you spoke with tongues. If you interpret the tongue, that's better. He who speaks in tongues and interprets is greater than he who speaks in tongues because he edifies the church. He who prophesies is greater than the one who speaks in tongues and doesn't interpret, because the one who speaks in tongues only builds himself up, but he who prophesies builds the church up.

We can see all these things in the passage.

To understand the passage, it helps to actually look at the specific things the verses teach, rather than focusing on pagan literature.

2. Is it not clear that Paul gave us a reason not to speak in an unknown tongue, instead of the assumption it was something he wanted us to do?

This I think should cement in place the real meaning Paul intended in verse 4:

Matthew 6:7-9 (NIV)
[SUP]7 [/SUP] And when you pray, do not keep on babbling like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many words.
[SUP]8 [/SUP] Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him.
[SUP]9 [/SUP] "This, then, is how you should pray: "'Our Father in heaven, hallowed be your name,
3. Now does not that above verse clarify that Jesus does not want us to pray in an unknown tongue, but rather in our OWN language making our requests understandable to both GOD and ourselves?

You are reading a contradiction here between what you think Jesus was saying and what Paul actually wrote. There is no reason to think that 'vain repetitions' here refers to speaking in tongues. To believe that, one would need to reject what Paul wrote in I Corinthians 14, or have a really twisted interpretation that doesn't deal with the details of the passage like you have suggested.

I posted a summary of views from different authors in a Wikipedia article. None of them accept your view, which appears to be based on a kind of folk etymology approach-- assertions based on the morphemes in the Greek words.

 

[Cee]

Self-edification:

Jude 1:20 But you, beloved, building yourselves up in your most holy faith and praying in the Holy Spirit,

You said that "unknown" doesn't exist, but I didn't say that in that post. Let me show you the Scripture again:

1 Co 14:2 For one who speaks in a tongue speaks not to men but to God; for no one understands him, but he utters mysteries in the Spirit.

Notice I don't focus on "unknown at all"

1. Speaks not to men.
2. Speaks to God.
3. No one understands him.
4. Speaks mysteries.

This is just 1 Scripture, I can pull out more, no problem.

 

[BenFTW]

Self-edification:

Jude 1:20 But you, beloved, building yourselves up in your most holy faith and praying in the Holy Spirit,

You said that "unknown" doesn't exist, but I didn't say that in that post. Let me show you the Scripture again:

1 Co 14:2 For one who speaks in a tongue speaks not to men but to God; for no one understands him, but he utters mysteries in the Spirit.

Notice I don't focus on "unknown at all"

1. Speaks not to men.
2. Speaks to God.
3. No one understands him.
4. Speaks mysteries.

This is just 1 Scripture, I can pull out more, no problem.

Hiyah!!!

That one verse was like a karate chop, but theres so many more. lol

 

[VCO]

Okay VCO, no further comment on my part for now. we'll let this pass...

I wasn't referring to your comments. As far as I can see you left it in the honest realm of discussion, which I compliment you on.

 

[fredoheaven]

Sorry VCO, forgive me but I will comment one more time the passage brought out by Cee if you mind.

Quoting Cee says, "Self-edification:

Jude 1:20 But you, beloved, building yourselves up in your most holy faith and praying in the Holy Spirit,

Jude 1:20 But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost,
Jude specifically not saying it for a self-edification but rather it is a church edification. Using your non KJV stated that this building up is not for “yourself” emphasizing a particular person but “yourselves” which the emphasis refers to a group of people. The use of “ye” in the KJV, proves that this nature of building up concerns not the individual but rather corporately.

Cee says:

1 Co 14:2 For one who speaks in a tongue speaks not to men but to God; for no one understands him, but he utters mysteries in the Spirit.
Notice I don't focus on "unknown at all"

1. Speaks not to men.
2. Speaks to God.
3. No one understands him.
4. Speaks mysteries.

Well, since no one understands him, “he that speaketh in an unknown tongue”, thus it’s mystery and mystery is something that is not known, which actually the hearers did not have any knowledge what has been said except he interprets.

1 Corinthians 14:5 “I would that ye all spake with tongues, but rather that ye prophesied: for greater ​

is

he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.” ​

 

[fredoheaven]

I wasn't referring to your comments. As far as I can see you left it in the honest realm of discussion, which I compliment you on.

Okay VCO, thanks, I have to go... Grace to you is still being aired in our local radio here in the Philippines. God bless!

 

[presidente]

Sorry VCO, forgive me but I will comment one more time the passage brought out by Cee if you mind.

Quoting Cee says, "Self-edification:

Jude 1:20 But you, beloved, building yourselves up in your most holy faith and praying in the Holy Spirit,

Jude 1:20 But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost,
Jude specifically not saying it for a self-edification but rather it is a church edification. Using your non KJV stated that this building up is not for “yourself” emphasizing a particular person but “yourselves” which the emphasis refers to a group of people. The use of “ye” in the KJV, proves that this nature of building up concerns not the individual but rather corporately.

The plural makes it nonconclusive, but our praying buildings ourselves up, collectively does say something about this.

Words have meaning, and it just does not make sense to interpret the New Testament to put a ban on all self-edifying activities. We'd have to forbid individual singing of psalms, prayer, and Bible study if that were the case. Just like we shouldn't interpret Paul's statement for each to seek another's profit to mean that one should not work to support himself. I can find scripture that says that we should work to support ourselves. I can also find where Paul says that he will pray with the Spirit, a self-edifying activity.

Well, since no one understands him, “he that speaketh in an unknown tongue”, thus it’s mystery and mystery is something that is not known, which actually the hearers did not have any knowledge what has been said except he interprets.

That seems to be a reasonable interpretation of the text. I wonder if posters on both sides of the issue will agree.

What I find odd in these discussions is that you'll have someone quote a scripture or point out some fact that both sides agree on, as if that proves their point. I am not saying you do that. But you'll see posters point out that 'unknown' is an italicized addition by the translators of the KJV. I think "So what?" It doesn't really effect most well-read interpreters on either side of the issue.

In some cases, a poster will post something that runs contrary to what the text of scripture actually says. The John MacArthur commentary quote that VCO referred to would be a good example of this. Asserting that the tongues in I Corinthians 14 are pagan tongues makes no sense in context.

 

[buddyt]

How on earth can anyone believe that God would except prayer more so from someone mumbling in some sort of gibberish. I can see him now looking down and shaking his head. Come on people God is very intelligent yet very simple. Gibberish is just that. The word Tongues means Languages. I'm sorry I don't mean to be a Jerk but please use some logic, common sense.

 

[88]

Pray in the Spirit. Pray in understanding... Be ablaze with the Spirit and Love...

 

[presidente]

How on earth can anyone believe that God would except prayer more so from someone mumbling in some sort of gibberish. I can see him now looking down and shaking his head. Come on people God is very intelligent yet very simple. Gibberish is just that. The word Tongues means Languages. I'm sorry I don't mean to be a Jerk but please use some logic, common sense.

Who exactly is posting in favor of speaking gibberish that is not a language?Btw, foreign languages sound like gibberish to those who have not learned them.

 

[plainguy]

I listened to an angel ( a real one) preaching last night at a church ... just like Paul said would happen. It was an awesome experience and the angel was pretty cool . And forego your claims of hyperbole. God's Word thru Paul makes this pretty clear. Heck .. we were even told that some of us have entertained angels unaware so don't try to change my mind on this. Who wants in ?

Galatians 1:8

But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

 

[1ofthem]

I listened to an angel ( a real one) preaching last night at a church ... just like Paul said would happen. It was an awesome experience and the angel was pretty cool . And forego your claims of hyperbole. God's Word thru Paul makes this pretty clear. Heck .. we were even told that some of us have entertained angels unaware so don't try to change my mind on this. Who wants in ?

Galatians 1:8

But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

The gifts of the Holy Spirit is not bringing or preaching any other "new" gospel...How many times and different ways can it be said that it is not adding to the scripture of God.

It is scriptural and explained in the scripture. So to call it all fake or say it doesn't exist...is taking away from the scripture.

As far as your angel example goes...if it came preaching another gospel then it is not of God and it is accursed...We don't even need the gift of discernment to know that...That's simple common sense

 

[plainguy]

The gifts of the Holy Spirit is not bringing or preaching any other "new" gospel...How many times and different ways can it be said that it is not adding to the scripture of God.

If the gift isn't consistent with what it was when first given, then what ? I've looked for an example of tongues not being an earthly language and couldn't find one. The only thing I could find was Paul's hyperbole. Maybe you know of one ?

 

[presidente]

If the gift isn't consistent with what it was when first given, then what ? I've looked for an example of tongues not being an earthly language and couldn't find one. The only thing I could find was Paul's hyperbole. Maybe you know of one ?

I sense some circular reasoning here. I Corinthians 13 'Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels'Saying that is hyperbole is just an assertion. Why would you say tongues must be 'earthly languages' when the scriptures suggest that one might speak in the 'tongues of men and of angels'? Isn't I Corinthians 13 good enough for you?

 

[VCO]

Sorry VCO, forgive me but I will comment one more time the passage brought out by Cee if you mind.

Quoting Cee says, "Self-edification:

Jude 1:20 But you, beloved, building yourselves up in your most holy faith and praying in the Holy Spirit,

Jude 1:20 But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost,
Jude specifically not saying it for a self-edification but rather it is a church edification. Using your non KJV stated that this building up is not for “yourself” emphasizing a particular person but “yourselves” which the emphasis refers to a group of people. The use of “ye” in the KJV, proves that this nature of building up concerns not the individual but rather corporately.

Cee says:

1 Co 14:2 For one who speaks in a tongue speaks not to men but to God; for no one understands him, but he utters mysteries in the Spirit.
Notice I don't focus on "unknown at all"

1. Speaks not to men.
2. Speaks to God.
3. No one understands him.
4. Speaks mysteries.

Well, since no one understands him, “he that speaketh in an unknown tongue”, thus it’s mystery and mystery is something that is not known, which actually the hearers did not have any knowledge what has been said except he interprets.

1 Corinthians 14:5 “I would that ye all spake with tongues, but rather that ye prophesied: for greater ​

is

he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.” ​

What is confusing you is your misunderstanding of comparing English meanings to Greek meanings. Greek can have more specific meanings than English, plus the fact that Greek has FOUR Primary Verb Tenses, whereas English only has THREE Primary Verb Tenses; which makes English a poor language at best to translate the Bible into.

1 Corinthians 14:4 (NASB)
[SUP]4 [/SUP] One who speaks in a tongue edifies himself; but one who prophesies edifies the church.

In English the phrase "building yourselves up" and the phrase "edifies himself" have a slightly different meaning in the Greek, whereas in English they seem identical. "Building yourselves up" in Jude 1:20 is the learning process that leads spiritual growth or maturing. The "edifies himself" is building himself up in his own estimation, which almost always spawns out of pride.

There are no contradictions in my Bible, maybe you think there are all kinds of contradictions in the Bible, but not me. Since I was born again in late 1977, one of the most important things that I have learned about studying the Bible is any time we think we found a contradiction, we have certainly made an error in interpretation.

1 Corinthians 10:23-24 (KJV)
[SUP]23 [/SUP] All things are lawful for me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but all things edify not.
[SUP]24 [/SUP] Let no man seek his own, but every man another's {and the KJV translators added the following word that is not in the original language Bible} wealth.

Clearly Paul is saying let no man seek his own edification. Can we prove that with other verses?

Romans 14:19 (ASV)
[SUP]19 [/SUP] So then let us follow after things which make for peace, and things whereby we may edify one another.

So does this insistence that GOD wants us to edify SELF generate peace or strife?

1 Thessalonians 5:11 (KJV)
[SUP]11 [/SUP] Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.

Does your understanding of 1 Cor. 14:4 generate comfort or bickering?

Now is the expression in Jude 1:20 "praying in the Spirit" a reference to the ecstatic utterances called tongues, or only a reference to strive to pray in your own language, while being led by the Spirit.

Matthew 6:7-9 (NIV)
[SUP]7 [/SUP] And when you pray, do not keep on babbling like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many words.
[SUP]8 [/SUP] Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him.
[SUP]9 [/SUP] "This, then, is how you should pray: "'Our Father in heaven, hallowed be your name,

Our Lord God does not contradict Himself. In verse 9. is He telling us to Pray in Charismatic tongues, or in our own language"

Some will say, oh it is just the Holy Spirit in us offering up His groanings.

Okay, let's look at that verse too.

Romans 8:26 (KJV)
[SUP]26 [/SUP] Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.

So what do you think cannot be uttered means?

Like I said, my Bible has no contradictions, and I am totally at peace with GOD over the understandings HE HAS GIVEN ME.

Are you totally at peace with GOD over your understandings, and do they create Contradictions in HIS WORD?



Jude 1:20 (GWT)
[SUP]20 [/SUP] Dear friends, use your most holy faith to grow. Pray with the Holy Spirit's help.

 

[presidente]

Jesus prayed other prayers besides the so-called Lord's prayer. He prayed about the cup in Gethsemene. He prayed another prayer before raising Lazarus from the dead. Chrsitians are allowed to pray.The fact that Jesus said to pray the Lord's prayer doesn't prove that no other prayer is allowed. I've read the argument before that Christians should only pray the Lord's prayer. It's bad logic though. If Jesus said to pray this prayer, that doesn't forbid other prayers in addition.It kind of reminds me of how some people are opposed to public prayer based on the passage where Jesus said not to be like the hypocrites who pray in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets that they may be seen of men. But Jesus prayed publically. Paul implies it is important to pray in such a way that your prayer edifies others when praying publically in church. Jesus did not forbid public prayer. He wants us to have the right attitude. We aren't to pray to be seen of men. There is a heart attitude issue. Jesus prayed in public so that those who heard might believe. He had the right motivation for doing so. And interpreting scripture to forbid self-edification is another wooden way of reading passages that doesn't make sense. If it were really wrong to edify yourself, why would you study the Bible or pray alone? Wouldn't it have been wrong for David to encourage himself in the Lord? And wouldn't it be wrong to receive edifying, also, if the verse about not seeking your own is meant as a verse against being edified? Paul said, "I would that ye all spake with tongues, but rather that ye prophesied." He explained why. He that speaks in tongues edifies himself. He who prophesies edifies the church. So it is good to edify yourself, but better to edify the church.

 

[VCO]

Who exactly is posting in favor of speaking gibberish that is not a language?Btw, foreign languages sound like gibberish to those who have not learned them.

Put your reasoning to the test. Tape record yourself, then try to find someone who can positively identify the language.

 

[VCO]

Jesus prayed other prayers besides the so-called Lord's prayer. He prayed about the cup in Gethsemene. He prayed another prayer before raising Lazarus from the dead. Chrsitians are allowed to pray.The fact that Jesus said to pray the Lord's prayer doesn't prove that no other prayer is allowed. I've read the argument before that Christians should only pray the Lord's prayer. It's bad logic though. If Jesus said to pray this prayer, that doesn't forbid other prayers in addition.It kind of reminds me of how some people are opposed to public prayer based on the passage where Jesus said not to be like the hypocrites who pray in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets that they may be seen of men. But Jesus prayed publically. Paul implies it is important to pray in such a way that your prayer edifies others when praying publically in church. Jesus did not forbid public prayer. He wants us to have the right attitude. We aren't to pray to be seen of men. There is a heart attitude issue. Jesus prayed in public so that those who heard might believe. He had the right motivation for doing so. And interpreting scripture to forbid self-edification is another wooden way of reading passages that doesn't make sense. If it were really wrong to edify yourself, why would you study the Bible or pray alone? Wouldn't it have been wrong for David to encourage himself in the Lord? And wouldn't it be wrong to receive edifying, also, if the verse about not seeking your own is meant as a verse against being edified? Paul said, "I would that ye all spake with tongues, but rather that ye prophesied." He explained why. He that speaks in tongues edifies himself. He who prophesies edifies the church. So it is good to edify yourself, but better to edify the church.

The Lord's Prayer was NEVER meant to be a memorized prayer to recite; but rather a MODEL for all Prayer.

 

[VCO]

John MacAthur has some of the worst teachings on speaking in tongues I've ever heard. There is an old video on YouTube where he talks about I Corinthians 14. I don't know if this was before he started teaching verse by verse, but he makes assertion after assertion that are easily debunked by just reading verse by verse through the text, at least if you assume the passage is inspired by God and that Paul is a faithful teacher of the Gospel.

. . .

Has anyone besides me noticed this Judgement and Criticism of Dr. John MacArthur, Jr. comes from one who in all probability NEVER has listened to one complete Sermon by Dr. MacArthur, and probably NEVER has read one complete book by Dr. MacArthur. Dr. John MacArthur's biography is on gty.org if anyone is interested.

 

[shittim]

Yep, VCO, "Pray in this manner", not "pray this prayer".
Although we can and have until we have grown more and understand the manner He was directing us to follow.