Tongues Again???
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I certainly have the Grace of GOD, and have been totally at Peace with GOD pertaining to my Forgiveness, my having been SAVED, and the understanding the Holy Spirit has given me about the Scriptures, ever since the night of my 3rd attempt at suicide the last week of 1977. I have never spoken in your style of tongues, I have seen a great deal of all of Spiritual FRUITS in my life, especially JOY, numerous miracles, especially in answer to prayer, have been FILLED with the Spirit more times than I could ever count, PLUS a great deal of spiritual GROWTH in my Walk with Jesus, and all of that is that MINUS the Charismatic Experience. I learned EARLY in my Christian WALK, that if I kept my FOCUS on HIM, and serving and edifying others, HE WOULD FAITHFULLY TAKE CARE OF ME, without my ever focusing on SELF or Self-Edification.
I will not doubt that if a missionary had only one chance to reach a specific remote Tribe, especially if somehow someone in that tribe was connected to being a descendant of Israel; GOD could and would give that Missionary miraculous command of that language. However it would not be an ongoing ministry, because I believe it is GOD's will that Missionaries actually learn their language and start translating the Bible into their language as soon as possible, or hire Translators.
WHY do I believe that? Because you never know how long you actually have to work with that tribe. I had a personal friend that I used to go to Church with back in the late 80's, by the name of Dave Mankins. Dave and his wife Nancy became involved with New Tribes Missions and they were sent to a remote tribe near the Colombian boarder in southern Panama. The very first thing they began to do was put every single word they learned in that tribes language, into their Computer to start forming a Dictionary to use when they started translating the Bible into their own Language. The last letter that I got from Dave was the first part of December, 1992. He told me that translation of the New Testament into the Kuna Language was going very well. So my wife and I were planning a trip to go to Panama to visit Dave and Nancy the following May. On January 31st, 1993, Colombian Gorillas came in the Kuna Village and took all three of the Missionary men prisoners to hold for ransom. The Gorillas were demanding a million dollars for each of the three Missionaries. Their wives were left in the village, and they came home from the mission field. Of course New Tribes Missions refused to pay the ransom, and they demanded it at least three times from what I heard. To Pay Ransom for a Single Missionary is to paint a bulls-eye on the back of every Missionary in the field. The day I heard from a fellow Church member, that the men had been executed by the Gorillas, it hit me hard. I was a mailman, and I had to take an early lunch break, because I had way too many tears flowing to drive my mail truck for awhile. The tears still flow as I remember the great price Dave and Nancy paid to put most of the New Testament in the Kuna Language.
http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2001/septemberweb-only/9-24-44.0.html
THAT is how I believe GOD intends to reach remote tribes today.
Yes, at the time of the Apostles traveling and teaching the new revelation that when completed would become our New Testament, things were a little different. BUT I doubt that being given permanent, and complete command of a new language was necessary when unbelieving Jews were not present. The reason is obvious, when you look at why the GREEK language was used to write the New Testament. Whenever Merchants hired help to travel to other Countries to find imports to buy, they ALWAYS hired someone who had learned GREEK, which was the accepted language of all merchants seeking to negotiate deals for merchandise they wanted to sell in their shops. Therefore as they arrived in new Countries, it was easy to find Translators that spoke and wrote Greek. Apparently even the Apostles learned the Greek Language.
WHY do I believe that? Because you never know how long you actually have to work with that tribe. I had a personal friend that I used to go to Church with back in the late 80's, by the name of Dave Mankins. Dave and his wife Nancy became involved with New Tribes Missions and they were sent to a remote tribe near the Colombian boarder in southern Panama. The very first thing they began to do was put every single word they learned in that tribes language, into their Computer to start forming a Dictionary to use when they started translating the Bible into their own Language. The last letter that I got from Dave was the first part of December, 1992. He told me that translation of the New Testament into the Kuna Language was going very well. So my wife and I were planning a trip to go to Panama to visit Dave and Nancy the following May. On January 31st, 1993, Colombian Gorillas came in the Kuna Village and took all three of the Missionary men prisoners to hold for ransom. The Gorillas were demanding a million dollars for each of the three Missionaries. Their wives were left in the village, and they came home from the mission field. Of course New Tribes Missions refused to pay the ransom, and they demanded it at least three times from what I heard. To Pay Ransom for a Single Missionary is to paint a bulls-eye on the back of every Missionary in the field. The day I heard from a fellow Church member, that the men had been executed by the Gorillas, it hit me hard. I was a mailman, and I had to take an early lunch break, because I had way too many tears flowing to drive my mail truck for awhile. The tears still flow as I remember the great price Dave and Nancy paid to put most of the New Testament in the Kuna Language.
http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2001/septemberweb-only/9-24-44.0.html
THAT is how I believe GOD intends to reach remote tribes today.
Yes, at the time of the Apostles traveling and teaching the new revelation that when completed would become our New Testament, things were a little different. BUT I doubt that being given permanent, and complete command of a new language was necessary when unbelieving Jews were not present. The reason is obvious, when you look at why the GREEK language was used to write the New Testament. Whenever Merchants hired help to travel to other Countries to find imports to buy, they ALWAYS hired someone who had learned GREEK, which was the accepted language of all merchants seeking to negotiate deals for merchandise they wanted to sell in their shops. Therefore as they arrived in new Countries, it was easy to find Translators that spoke and wrote Greek. Apparently even the Apostles learned the Greek Language.
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No, I didn't say that last part. Of course it is wrong to assume that the perposes of the 'new tongues' is to directly evangelize in foreign languages when:1. The Bible never says their purpose was to evangelize in foreign languages.2. There is no example of anyone actually preaching the Gospel in tongues in the scriputre3. Paul shows how unbelievers respond to speaking in tongues with unbelief, in accordance with the scripture 'and yet for all that, they will not hear Me'.As for speaking tongues of angels, Paul suggests idea so we should allow for it. I wouldn't say that is the norm, but I wouldn't say it is impossible either.
VCO, I'm sorry for your loss of your friend back then. The apostles rejoiced that they were counted worthy to suffer for Christ. It is an honor to die for the cause of Christ. If we suffer with Him, we will also reign with him. Some of the prophets in the Old Testament 'were totured, not accepting deliverance, that they might obtain a better resurrection.'
VCO,I don't see any examples of tongues being used to preach the Gospel in the Bible, and the Bible does not teach that that is its purpose, but I would not same God is restricted from using speaking in tongues in this way. And of course, God is not limited to only use these spiritual gifts among Jews. We should not take one passage of scripture and invent our rigid rules around it. Even if you take "I will speak unto this people" to refer to Israel (though in this case, Paul applies it to one who is an unbeliever or unlearned without specifying his people-group, c.f. how he applies the 'not My people' prophecy from Hosea in Romans 9 to include Gentiles) that is not evidence for this view.If God says He will speak to Israel through men of other lips and another tongue, that does not mean He will speak to no one else in this way. Saying He will not is kind of like saying this:"The Bible says Jesus ate fish. Therefore no one else in history ate fish. And fish no longer exist anymore." That's fish cessationism logic.Tongues are for a sign to them that believe not. That doesn't mean that every time that tongues are used, unbelievers have to be present. Tongues do not only function as a sign. We see in I Corinthians that speaking in tongues edifies the speaker. With interpretation, it edifies the church. There is another 'purpose' given in scripture for tongues and interpretation: 'the profit withal' in chapter 12. This interpretation on this that you propose is very wooden. You are restricting what God can do where He has not restricted Himself
J
if tongues were not a foreign language then explain how the angel language would be a sign for unbelievers? keep in mind the Jews of the time knew good and well of the greek / Babylonian pagan oracle priest that chanted in the oracle / prophesy state of mind. how would speaking in a way that mirrored the pagans be a sign, if i were one of those Jews i would have disbelief.
Agree to disagree? If the issue is whether chocolate cake or pound cake is better, I suppose it is okay to do that.If the issue is whether the gifts of the Spirit, including the ones in the Bible, are from pagan sources are not, how would it be ethical for me to approve of someone believing in and promoting such an error. I don't agree with anyone believing or promoting that. Why would I agree with lies? Why would I say that it is okay to believe in lies? I do not want to be complicit in the error.As far as you putting me on your ingore list, you seem to have put anyone who points out the scriptures that contradict your view, and the scriptures they post, on your metaphorical ignore list anyway. You've promoted error on the forum. Especially the idea that the speaking in tongues the Corinthians were doing were pagan, when Paul wanted them interpreted to edify the body. Whether you respond to me or not, I can respond to error you promote on the forum so that others can read.
I believe in the gifts of the Spirit for this is backed up by the bible. I do not believe this so called Pentecostal movement that started around 1906 is of God. I think this can be proven to any open minded Christian who really wants to know the truth. Since the gifts of the Spirit are, and always have been, in effect, therefore there are some people who speak in tongues and some who do not, that have experienced the power of God moving through them. I spent years in fundamental non tongue speaking churches, and also many years in tongue speaking churches. The non tongue speaking Christians generally were more grounded in the Lord then the tongue speaking Christians. I believe that is because Pentecostalism has so many false spirits that people call the Holy Spirit, while in non Pentecostal churches they do not have nearly so much of that sort of thing.
Look at the 'sign to them that believe not' passage. Paul quotes a scripture, applies it to speaking in tongues. The scripture from Isaiah says 'and yet for all that, ye will not hear Me.' Then he gives an example of an unbeliever or uninstructed person who goes into church, all speak in tongues, and he says 'ye are mad.' So he responds with unbelief. What is the sign? The sign is the type of sign that is a fulfillment of a prophecy. The unbeliever witnesses speaking in tongues, but he still won't 'hear' God. That's the sign. Tongues being a sign to them that believe not doesn't mean they hear speaking in tongues and believe. The sign is the fulfillment of their hearing tongues and not believing. In Acts, some of the people scoffed and said the disciples were drunk when they heard them speak in tongues.
The idea that speaking in tongues mimics pagan practices is a made-up idea that certain anti-spiritual-gifts preachers and VCO promote. Of course, some secular type people who don't believe the Bible who think all religions are the same might think that way. But the Bible doesn't present them as the same thing. The Corinthian believers were speaking in tongues but others did not understand, and the gift of interpretation enabled an interpretation and for the congregation to be edified.
If you believe in genuine spiritual gifts and that there are genuine Pentecostal Christians, then it doesn't make sense to believe that Pentecostal gifts are categorically false or something like that. You didn't say that. But if there are Pentecostal believers who believe God to operate in gifts and pray for them (e.g. I Corinthians 14:13), it makes sense, considering Jesus' teaching on prayer, that there will be Pentecostals who operate in the gifts.After the Azusa Street Revival, there has been huge growth in evangelism and missions activity, much of which was directly connected with the Pentecostal revival.
Much of the huge growth of the church in China is through the Pentecostal and/or Charismatic churches over there. A reporter, I believe the chief correspondent for Time in Beijing for a while, whose lecture I saw on YouTube. It was about the healings in China, how that Christians and non-Christians heard reports of many healings there and they believed them. He was talking about this as a journalist, how he interviewed a policeman who'd arrested Christians who was healed of medically incurrable cancer, became a Christian, and fled from the government himself to Hong Kong.I've spent time in Indonesia, and it used to be that ethnic Chinese were typically Buddhist. Now, it seems like it is more common for them to be Christians. So it seems that the revival among the Chinese extends beyond Chinese national borders. A large number of these Chinese Christians are in Pentecostal and Charismatic churches.
The lines between the movements are blurred in Indonesia, too, with some churches in Pentecostal denominations calling themselves 'Karismatik' which you would not see in the US.You could have gone to a Pentecostal church that was kind of flaky, or have been in a kind of flaky end of the movement. I know there are preachers who stand up and preach opinions really loud who are Pentecostal or Charismatic.
There are Fundamentalists who do the same thing. As far as stereotyping the movement they way you do goes, maybe you should look at some Barna surveys. Several years ago, Barna did a survey where he asked people who went to church what they believed about basic evangelical doctrines. I believe it included things like beliefs about the Bible, beliefs about Hell, the Devil, etc. (I don't remember the details. I read the page a while back.) He had Assemblies of God, a Pentecostal denomination, parseled out as separate from 'Pentecostal' in his results. But he found that A/G people and other Pentecostals were at the top of the list for believing Biblical doctrines and other Pentecostals were second. In another one of his surveys, he found that Charismatics were at the top of the list for Biblical knowledge among Evangelicals he surveyed. I either did not see or do not recall the questions or the methodology. There are churches that aren't very solid in the word that you can find in these groups, but some that are very much into the Bible and following it. 'Charismatic' is a theological persuasion, not a denomination. To some extent 'Pentecostal; is too, but it is more associated with certain historical denominations. There are independent churches that can call themselves Pentecostal, too.
Much of the huge growth of the church in China is through the Pentecostal and/or Charismatic churches over there. A reporter, I believe the chief correspondent for Time in Beijing for a while, whose lecture I saw on YouTube. It was about the healings in China, how that Christians and non-Christians heard reports of many healings there and they believed them. He was talking about this as a journalist, how he interviewed a policeman who'd arrested Christians who was healed of medically incurrable cancer, became a Christian, and fled from the government himself to Hong Kong.I've spent time in Indonesia, and it used to be that ethnic Chinese were typically Buddhist. Now, it seems like it is more common for them to be Christians. So it seems that the revival among the Chinese extends beyond Chinese national borders. A large number of these Chinese Christians are in Pentecostal and Charismatic churches.
The lines between the movements are blurred in Indonesia, too, with some churches in Pentecostal denominations calling themselves 'Karismatik' which you would not see in the US.You could have gone to a Pentecostal church that was kind of flaky, or have been in a kind of flaky end of the movement. I know there are preachers who stand up and preach opinions really loud who are Pentecostal or Charismatic.
There are Fundamentalists who do the same thing. As far as stereotyping the movement they way you do goes, maybe you should look at some Barna surveys. Several years ago, Barna did a survey where he asked people who went to church what they believed about basic evangelical doctrines. I believe it included things like beliefs about the Bible, beliefs about Hell, the Devil, etc. (I don't remember the details. I read the page a while back.) He had Assemblies of God, a Pentecostal denomination, parseled out as separate from 'Pentecostal' in his results. But he found that A/G people and other Pentecostals were at the top of the list for believing Biblical doctrines and other Pentecostals were second. In another one of his surveys, he found that Charismatics were at the top of the list for Biblical knowledge among Evangelicals he surveyed. I either did not see or do not recall the questions or the methodology. There are churches that aren't very solid in the word that you can find in these groups, but some that are very much into the Bible and following it. 'Charismatic' is a theological persuasion, not a denomination. To some extent 'Pentecostal; is too, but it is more associated with certain historical denominations. There are independent churches that can call themselves Pentecostal, too.
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Stephen63,Where is the evidence that the Corinthians had a specific problem with the Diana cult in Corinth? There were probably worshippers of any of these false gods in any of those cities back then, since they were polytheists. The problem is with really bad, dark hermeneutics that equates a gift of the Holy Spirit described in scripture with a pagan practice.
Regarding ecstatic utterances in Apollo, what is the evidence for that? I know some theorize that the oracle at Delphi mumbling due to being drugged by volcanic gas seeping up from beneath the surface. In an earlier ancient Greek drama's, Cassandra, the priestess in whose mouth Apollos spit after she asked for the gift of prophecy but refused to sleep with him so that she might remain one of his virgins would prophesy but no one would believe her. In later dramas, people could not understand what she said. Is it clear at all what their priests or priestesses were supposed to have sounded like?
In a Roman legend, a Roman, before becoming king, went to the oracle of Delphi, understood her prophecy, but others couldn't. Is it even clear or understood what kind of things the oracle at Delphi said? Was it supposed to be riddles or gibberish? I wonder how much of this scholarship is guesswork, just theories. Fortunately, we have the Holy Spirit and we have the Bible. We have scripture about Christians operating in real gifts of the Spirit, but we have no scripture about Corinthian Christians involved in some kind of pagan utterance.
Regarding ecstatic utterances in Apollo, what is the evidence for that? I know some theorize that the oracle at Delphi mumbling due to being drugged by volcanic gas seeping up from beneath the surface. In an earlier ancient Greek drama's, Cassandra, the priestess in whose mouth Apollos spit after she asked for the gift of prophecy but refused to sleep with him so that she might remain one of his virgins would prophesy but no one would believe her. In later dramas, people could not understand what she said. Is it clear at all what their priests or priestesses were supposed to have sounded like?
In a Roman legend, a Roman, before becoming king, went to the oracle of Delphi, understood her prophecy, but others couldn't. Is it even clear or understood what kind of things the oracle at Delphi said? Was it supposed to be riddles or gibberish? I wonder how much of this scholarship is guesswork, just theories. Fortunately, we have the Holy Spirit and we have the Bible. We have scripture about Christians operating in real gifts of the Spirit, but we have no scripture about Corinthian Christians involved in some kind of pagan utterance.
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EASY, there is NO SUCH THING AS AN ANGEL LANGUAGE. Every time an angel spoke in the Bible they spoke in the language of the people they were talking to. The only difference is that angels were known to speak in a louder voice, more eloquent, and their voice was noticably one speaking from Authority.
LOL, oh that is a good one. Corinth had a HUGE TEMPLE of Apollo. LOL, nice try.
Here are the ruins of that Temple today.
The Temple of Apollo at Corinth
NOTICE: there was a Temple of Apollo and a Peribolos of Apollo.
[TABLE="width: 800"]
[TR]
[TD]
[TR]
[TD="width: 469"][SIZE=-1]History of Construction and Use:[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]The Peribolos of Apollo was a marble peristyle court offering shelter from inclement weather and respite from the noise and traffic of the adjacent Lechaion road. Adorned with a statue of Apollo and a painting of Odysseus fighting the suitors, according to Pausanias, the court also had stairs leading down to the refreshing water of the fountain of Peirene to the south.
[/SIZE]http://corinth.sas.upenn.edu/ad150peribolos.html
QUOTE: Too often we regard speaking in tongues as a purely Christian phenomenon, but it was known in the ancient ecstatic religions; and Aristophanes in Frogs mentions ’the tongue of Bacchos’ (357). While a heathen might babble without consciousness of what he was saying, there is no indication that speaking a known language without prior instruction was practiced outside of a Christian context.
Pandemonium and Silence at Corinth
QUOTE: [FONT="]It is not a new thought that pagan forces were hard at work in the church at Corinth, but their identity and to what degree they influenced that congregation, is a matter of debate. Scholars of the History of Religions school earlier in this century believed that Christians, including those at Corinth, were affected by the Hellenistic mystery religions.[/FONT] [FONT="] On the other hand Schmithals and others have posited Gnostic influence in the church at Corinth.
[/FONT][FONT="]Religious ecstasy, particularly glossolalia, is found in the mystery religions or the religion of Apollo, rather than in Gnosticism as Bultmann and others have argued. Some of the characteristics of Gnosticism were already present in the general religious attitudes in the first century A.D.; but since Gnosticism was a later Christian heresy,[/FONT] [FONT="] it would be anachronistic to see Gnosticism in Corinth. Whatever the cause, the church in this hub of pagan perversity was in grave trouble; the church abounded in nonbiblical and immoral practices.
[/FONT]http://www.seeking4truth.com/tongues_corinth.html
[FONT="]QUOTE: Although Glossolalia is a very ancient practice it is still practiced nowadays in many religions, especially those where one seeks contact with the spirit world (witchcraft/shamanism, voodoo) or a mystical union with the "All". Mohamed, the founder of Islam, is probably the most famous of those who have practiced glossolalia. The phenomenon often occurs during a state of trance. Another person may receive the "interpretation" of the sounds uttered by the first person.[/FONT]
[FONT="]Given the importance of the hellenestic (issued from the kingdom of Alexander the Great) world for the study of Christianity we will focus on the Greek language and culture. Three Greek roots can be used to describe the phenomenon: "mantia" (manteia) which is the most commonly used for describing glossolalia, "chresteria" (crhsthria) and "chrao" (craw).[/FONT]
[FONT="]Glossolalie and its interpretation are mentionned in the Old Testament (Deuteronomy 18:10) as part of pagan religious practices (deu 18:9). The words used in the Septuaginta, the Greek version of the Old Testament are:[/FONT]
[FONT="]The phenomenon was very well known during the hellenistic antiquity. It was often used to know the thoughts of a god, or "daimonon" (daimonion, which gave the word "demon".) One would consult the oracles given by some mediums; the Greek for "medium" was "prophitis" (profhthV which gave the word "prophet".) A first medium would receive the oracle as an utterance of glossolalia, and other mediums would receive the interpretation of this oracle. The most famous mediums were probably the Pythia at Delphi and the Sibyls; these would practice glossolalia and were then interpreted by other mediums, as was the case of the many other mediums mentionned by the authors of the antiquity. [/FONT]
Glossolalia (Tongues) and 1 Corinthians 14 in Pagan Religions
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Here are the ruins of that Temple today.
The Temple of Apollo at Corinth
NOTICE: there was a Temple of Apollo and a Peribolos of Apollo.
[TABLE="width: 800"]
[TR]
[TD]
[SIZE=+2]Peribolos of Apollo[/SIZE]
[TABLE="width: 800"][TR]
[TD="width: 469"][SIZE=-1]History of Construction and Use:[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]The Peribolos of Apollo was a marble peristyle court offering shelter from inclement weather and respite from the noise and traffic of the adjacent Lechaion road. Adorned with a statue of Apollo and a painting of Odysseus fighting the suitors, according to Pausanias, the court also had stairs leading down to the refreshing water of the fountain of Peirene to the south.
[/SIZE]http://corinth.sas.upenn.edu/ad150peribolos.html
QUOTE: Too often we regard speaking in tongues as a purely Christian phenomenon, but it was known in the ancient ecstatic religions; and Aristophanes in Frogs mentions ’the tongue of Bacchos’ (357). While a heathen might babble without consciousness of what he was saying, there is no indication that speaking a known language without prior instruction was practiced outside of a Christian context.
Pandemonium and Silence at Corinth
QUOTE: [FONT="]It is not a new thought that pagan forces were hard at work in the church at Corinth, but their identity and to what degree they influenced that congregation, is a matter of debate. Scholars of the History of Religions school earlier in this century believed that Christians, including those at Corinth, were affected by the Hellenistic mystery religions.[/FONT] [FONT="] On the other hand Schmithals and others have posited Gnostic influence in the church at Corinth.
[/FONT][FONT="]Religious ecstasy, particularly glossolalia, is found in the mystery religions or the religion of Apollo, rather than in Gnosticism as Bultmann and others have argued. Some of the characteristics of Gnosticism were already present in the general religious attitudes in the first century A.D.; but since Gnosticism was a later Christian heresy,[/FONT] [FONT="] it would be anachronistic to see Gnosticism in Corinth. Whatever the cause, the church in this hub of pagan perversity was in grave trouble; the church abounded in nonbiblical and immoral practices.
[/FONT]http://www.seeking4truth.com/tongues_corinth.html
[FONT="]QUOTE: Although Glossolalia is a very ancient practice it is still practiced nowadays in many religions, especially those where one seeks contact with the spirit world (witchcraft/shamanism, voodoo) or a mystical union with the "All". Mohamed, the founder of Islam, is probably the most famous of those who have practiced glossolalia. The phenomenon often occurs during a state of trance. Another person may receive the "interpretation" of the sounds uttered by the first person.[/FONT]
[FONT="]Given the importance of the hellenestic (issued from the kingdom of Alexander the Great) world for the study of Christianity we will focus on the Greek language and culture. Three Greek roots can be used to describe the phenomenon: "mantia" (manteia) which is the most commonly used for describing glossolalia, "chresteria" (crhsthria) and "chrao" (craw).[/FONT]
[FONT="]Glossolalie and its interpretation are mentionned in the Old Testament (Deuteronomy 18:10) as part of pagan religious practices (deu 18:9). The words used in the Septuaginta, the Greek version of the Old Testament are:[/FONT]
- - "mantevomenos" (manteuomenoV): "he who practices glossolalia" (unfortunately translated by "he who practices divination"in the French translation by Louis Segond);
- - "mantian klidonizomenos" (manteian klhdonizomenoV): "he who interprets glossolalia (unfortunately translated by "he who looks for omens" by L.Segond).
[FONT="]The phenomenon was very well known during the hellenistic antiquity. It was often used to know the thoughts of a god, or "daimonon" (daimonion, which gave the word "demon".) One would consult the oracles given by some mediums; the Greek for "medium" was "prophitis" (profhthV which gave the word "prophet".) A first medium would receive the oracle as an utterance of glossolalia, and other mediums would receive the interpretation of this oracle. The most famous mediums were probably the Pythia at Delphi and the Sibyls; these would practice glossolalia and were then interpreted by other mediums, as was the case of the many other mediums mentionned by the authors of the antiquity. [/FONT]
Glossolalia (Tongues) and 1 Corinthians 14 in Pagan Religions
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Not sure where you got that someone had to interpret for others to be edified. The only one that could be edified is Christ. To Him,through Him and of Him is the glory , No such thing as self edification glorying in ones own flesh .We do not know Christ after any self righteous act we can perform . Christian will be found with no righteousness of their own.
He does all the work of interpreting.Scripture is of no private interpretation of men, as the witness of men. Once we leave God out of the gospel a person is simply following another, gospel another Christ.
In their case a good study on what it means to "walk by faith" could be beneficial . It appears it is there they stumble over the cross.
2Co 5:7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight
He does all the work of interpreting.Scripture is of no private interpretation of men, as the witness of men. Once we leave God out of the gospel a person is simply following another, gospel another Christ.
In their case a good study on what it means to "walk by faith" could be beneficial . It appears it is there they stumble over the cross.
2Co 5:7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight
Peter explained what had just happened ... (Acts 2:15-16) .. "These people are not drunk as you suppose. It's only nine in the morning. No .. this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel". You neglected to say that each heard the spoken tongues (glorifying God) in their own languages. Why do you do this ? And why do you deny what the purpose of tongues were for at pentecost, if not for the preaching of God's fulfilled promise of salvation in Christ ? Who here is truly denying the power of God's gift ?
LOL, oh that is a good one. Corinth had a HUGE TEMPLE of Apollo. LOL, nice try.
Here are the ruins of that Temple today.
The Temple of Apollo at Corinth
NOTICE: there was a Temple of Apollo and a Peribolos of Apollo.
[TABLE="width: 800"]
[TR]
[TD]
[TR]
[TD="width: 469"][SIZE=-1]History of Construction and Use:[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]The Peribolos of Apollo was a marble peristyle court offering shelter from inclement weather and respite from the noise and traffic of the adjacent Lechaion road. Adorned with a statue of Apollo and a painting of Odysseus fighting the suitors, according to Pausanias, the court also had stairs leading down to the refreshing water of the fountain of Peirene to the south.
[/SIZE]http://corinth.sas.upenn.edu/ad150peribolos.html
QUOTE: Too often we regard speaking in tongues as a purely Christian phenomenon, but it was known in the ancient ecstatic religions; and Aristophanes in Frogs mentions ’the tongue of Bacchos’ (357). While a heathen might babble without consciousness of what he was saying, there is no indication that speaking a known language without prior instruction was practiced outside of a Christian context.
Pandemonium and Silence at Corinth
QUOTE: It is not a new thought that pagan forces were hard at work in the church at Corinth, but their identity and to what degree they influenced that congregation, is a matter of debate. Scholars of the History of Religions school earlier in this century believed that Christians, including those at Corinth, were affected by the Hellenistic mystery religions. On the other hand Schmithals and others have posited Gnostic influence in the church at Corinth.
Religious ecstasy, particularly glossolalia, is found in the mystery religions or the religion of Apollo, rather than in Gnosticism as Bultmann and others have argued. Some of the characteristics of Gnosticism were already present in the general religious attitudes in the first century A.D.; but since Gnosticism was a later Christian heresy, it would be anachronistic to see Gnosticism in Corinth. Whatever the cause, the church in this hub of pagan perversity was in grave trouble; the church abounded in nonbiblical and immoral practices.
http://www.seeking4truth.com/tongues_corinth.html
QUOTE: Although Glossolalia is a very ancient practice it is still practiced nowadays in many religions, especially those where one seeks contact with the spirit world (witchcraft/shamanism, voodoo) or a mystical union with the "All". Mohamed, the founder of Islam, is probably the most famous of those who have practiced glossolalia. The phenomenon often occurs during a state of trance. Another person may receive the "interpretation" of the sounds uttered by the first person.
Given the importance of the hellenestic (issued from the kingdom of Alexander the Great) world for the study of Christianity we will focus on the Greek language and culture. Three Greek roots can be used to describe the phenomenon: "mantia" (manteia) which is the most commonly used for describing glossolalia, "chresteria" (crhsthria) and "chrao" (craw).
Glossolalie and its interpretation are mentionned in the Old Testament (Deuteronomy 18:10) as part of pagan religious practices (deu 18:9). The words used in the Septuaginta, the Greek version of the Old Testament are:
The phenomenon was very well known during the hellenistic antiquity. It was often used to know the thoughts of a god, or "daimonon" (daimonion, which gave the word "demon".) One would consult the oracles given by some mediums; the Greek for "medium" was "prophitis" (profhthV which gave the word "prophet".) A first medium would receive the oracle as an utterance of glossolalia, and other mediums would receive the interpretation of this oracle. The most famous mediums were probably the Pythia at Delphi and the Sibyls; these would practice glossolalia and were then interpreted by other mediums, as was the case of the many other mediums mentionned by the authors of the antiquity.
Glossolalia (Tongues) and 1 Corinthians 14 in Pagan Religions
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Here are the ruins of that Temple today.
The Temple of Apollo at Corinth
NOTICE: there was a Temple of Apollo and a Peribolos of Apollo.
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[SIZE=+2]Peribolos of Apollo[/SIZE]
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[TD="width: 469"][SIZE=-1]History of Construction and Use:[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]The Peribolos of Apollo was a marble peristyle court offering shelter from inclement weather and respite from the noise and traffic of the adjacent Lechaion road. Adorned with a statue of Apollo and a painting of Odysseus fighting the suitors, according to Pausanias, the court also had stairs leading down to the refreshing water of the fountain of Peirene to the south.
[/SIZE]http://corinth.sas.upenn.edu/ad150peribolos.html
QUOTE: Too often we regard speaking in tongues as a purely Christian phenomenon, but it was known in the ancient ecstatic religions; and Aristophanes in Frogs mentions ’the tongue of Bacchos’ (357). While a heathen might babble without consciousness of what he was saying, there is no indication that speaking a known language without prior instruction was practiced outside of a Christian context.
Pandemonium and Silence at Corinth
QUOTE: It is not a new thought that pagan forces were hard at work in the church at Corinth, but their identity and to what degree they influenced that congregation, is a matter of debate. Scholars of the History of Religions school earlier in this century believed that Christians, including those at Corinth, were affected by the Hellenistic mystery religions. On the other hand Schmithals and others have posited Gnostic influence in the church at Corinth.
Religious ecstasy, particularly glossolalia, is found in the mystery religions or the religion of Apollo, rather than in Gnosticism as Bultmann and others have argued. Some of the characteristics of Gnosticism were already present in the general religious attitudes in the first century A.D.; but since Gnosticism was a later Christian heresy, it would be anachronistic to see Gnosticism in Corinth. Whatever the cause, the church in this hub of pagan perversity was in grave trouble; the church abounded in nonbiblical and immoral practices.
http://www.seeking4truth.com/tongues_corinth.html
QUOTE: Although Glossolalia is a very ancient practice it is still practiced nowadays in many religions, especially those where one seeks contact with the spirit world (witchcraft/shamanism, voodoo) or a mystical union with the "All". Mohamed, the founder of Islam, is probably the most famous of those who have practiced glossolalia. The phenomenon often occurs during a state of trance. Another person may receive the "interpretation" of the sounds uttered by the first person.
Given the importance of the hellenestic (issued from the kingdom of Alexander the Great) world for the study of Christianity we will focus on the Greek language and culture. Three Greek roots can be used to describe the phenomenon: "mantia" (manteia) which is the most commonly used for describing glossolalia, "chresteria" (crhsthria) and "chrao" (craw).
Glossolalie and its interpretation are mentionned in the Old Testament (Deuteronomy 18:10) as part of pagan religious practices (deu 18:9). The words used in the Septuaginta, the Greek version of the Old Testament are:
- - "mantevomenos" (manteuomenoV): "he who practices glossolalia" (unfortunately translated by "he who practices divination"in the French translation by Louis Segond);
- - "mantian klidonizomenos" (manteian klhdonizomenoV): "he who interprets glossolalia (unfortunately translated by "he who looks for omens" by L.Segond).
The phenomenon was very well known during the hellenistic antiquity. It was often used to know the thoughts of a god, or "daimonon" (daimonion, which gave the word "demon".) One would consult the oracles given by some mediums; the Greek for "medium" was "prophitis" (profhthV which gave the word "prophet".) A first medium would receive the oracle as an utterance of glossolalia, and other mediums would receive the interpretation of this oracle. The most famous mediums were probably the Pythia at Delphi and the Sibyls; these would practice glossolalia and were then interpreted by other mediums, as was the case of the many other mediums mentionned by the authors of the antiquity.
Glossolalia (Tongues) and 1 Corinthians 14 in Pagan Religions
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Not sure where you got that someone had to interpret for others to be edified. The only one that could be edified is Christ. To Him,through Him and of Him is the glory , No such thing as self edification glorying in ones own flesh .We do not know Christ after any self righteous act we can perform . Christian will be found with no righteousness of their own.
He does all the work of interpreting.Scripture is of no private interpretation of men, as the witness of men. Once we leave God out of the gospel a person is simply following another, gospel another Christ.
In their case a good study on what it means to "walk by faith" could be beneficial . It appears it is there they stumble over the cross.
2Co 5:7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight
He does all the work of interpreting.Scripture is of no private interpretation of men, as the witness of men. Once we leave God out of the gospel a person is simply following another, gospel another Christ.
In their case a good study on what it means to "walk by faith" could be beneficial . It appears it is there they stumble over the cross.
2Co 5:7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight
[SUP]5 [/SUP] and I wish you all to speak with tongues, and more that ye may prophecy, for greater is he who is prophesying than he who is speaking with tongues, except one may interpret, that the assembly may receive edification.
The word prophesying at the time of Paul meant to proclaim the Word and Truths of GOD without error. Remember, there were not individual Bibles back then, mostly these huge scrolls, and a Synagogue may have only had ONE copy, because they were very expensive. So you were dependent on someone's memorized scripture remaining perfect, or the gift of prophecy or prophesying. Because human memory does not remain perfect. If you doubt that, wait till you get older, your day is coming.
