Tongues Again???

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presidente

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i agree, paul is making an exaggeration to prove a point, sad the point is missed by so many.
From the context, it insist he's exaggerating. That's a possibility, but other things he gives as examples in the same list are possible, just extreme, things. For example, giving all one has to the poor is possible. Giving one's body to be burned is possible. It wasn't that long after the Nero has Christians as 'human candles'. Plenty of Christians were burned and tortured in other ways rather than deny their faith.

Paul also wrote of moving mountains. Would you insist that mountains don't exist?
 

fredoheaven

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From the context, it insist he's exaggerating. That's a possibility, but other things he gives as examples in the same list are possible, just extreme, things. For example, giving all one has to the poor is possible. Giving one's body to be burned is possible. It wasn't that long after the Nero has Christians as 'human candles'. Plenty of Christians were burned and tortured in other ways rather than deny their faith.

Paul also wrote of moving mountains. Would you insist that mountains don't exist?
Good one for history where Christians were burned and tortured because they “…earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.” Jude 1:3 that this faith has nothing to do with the exercise of the speaking of tongue. We cannot fully known but the early Christian died in the cruel hands of Nero as it was “… rumored to have had captured Christians dipped in oil and set on fire in his garden at night as a source of light.”

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nero

Bibilical account of persecutions of these early believers were due to the preaching of the gospel where Paul and others “turned the world upside down.”

Acts 7:3 Opening and alleging, that Christ must needs have suffered, and risen again from the dead; and that this Jesus, whom I preach unto you, is Christ.

Acts 7:4 And some of them believed, and consorted with Paul and Silas; and of the devout Greeks a great multitude, and of the chief women not a few.

Acrts 7:6 And when they found them not, they drew Jason and certain brethren unto the rulers of the city, crying, These that have turned the world upside down are come hither also;
 

VCO

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Thanks for the Hebrew or Greek lesson 101 but English is fairly good for me. I'm okay with it. Should there be any hard to understand English words, I often look with a good English dictionary but sometimes, a well worth study is indeed a blessing! You have just to discover that the Bible defines it's words. Here is an example as you trying to point.

Ephesians 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,


True, to believe in Christ is not just a historical belief, a one mental assent but rather a full trust in Jesus to save.

God bless
True, but numerous people in this age of Lukewarm Laodiceanism, actually think acknowledging that all the stories about Jesus in the Bible are true, and that He really is Son of GOD, equals Saving Faith. If that lie were the case, even the demons in the Demoniacs at Gadera were saved. How do I know there are MANY who think that is what the Bible means by BELIEVE in JESUS? I used to be one of those watered down false believism unsaved who was claiming to be a Christian, until after a third attempt at suicide at 29 years of age. That is the night, I willingly repented and surrendered control of my life to JESUS, becoming genuinely born again. A VAST DIFFERENCE!
 

fredoheaven

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True, but numerous people in this age of Lukewarm Laodiceanism, actually think acknowledging that all the stories about Jesus in the Bible are true, and that He really is Son of GOD, equals Saving Faith. If that lie were the case, even the demons in the Demoniacs at Gadera were saved. How do I know there are MANY who think that is what the Bible means by BELIEVE in JESUS? I used to be one of those watered down false believism unsaved who was claiming to be a Christian, until after a third attempt at suicide at 29 years of age. That is the night, I willingly repented and surrendered control of my life to JESUS, becoming genuinely born again. A VAST DIFFERENCE!
Hi VCO,

Thanks for enlightenment and your good testimony too "becoming genuinely born again."

God bless
 

presidente

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Tongues - Abraham's Descendants International

here is a better link, the Jews hold the same position as i do, tongues are languages of this world, the Father, Jesus, the angels, the patriarchs, the prophets, etc all speak to us in our own language and we can pray in our own language as the Most High is more than fully capable of understanding us in our own language.
Most people use 'the Jews' to refer to the Jews who do not believe in Jesus. This fellow appears to be some kind of Messianic. He quotes from mystical Jewish sources from streams of Judaism that are not known for believing in Jesus. It's a bit odd to me when Messianics quote from the Zohar. If they are using it for some sort of historical background or evangelism to those who believe in it, maybe that's okay. There are Jews who read Jewish stuff but don't really dig deep into the Bible.

His arguments seem to be strong man arguments to me. I know there are some Charismatics who call tongues an angelic language. That's not the historical Pentecostal viewpoint on it, and it hasn't been the view of Pentecostals I've spent much time around. Occasionally, I come across someone on a forum who thinks that. I don't remember any Pentecostals insisting tongues are categorically 'tongues of angels' and that would be a weird and unjustified assertion based on I Corinthians. We should allow for the possibility of tongues being tongues of angels since Paul suggested it.

I'd like to see this author point to a Jewish source that says that you can only establish a doctrine by three witnesses of scripture. I've never heard of Jews teaching that. But he could surprise me. Some Jew might hold to that opinion. There area a number of things that we learn from just one scripture. We know that Judas was the one who complained about the ointment not being sold to the poor from one verse in the Bible. One verse tells us his guts poured out. One passage tells us that where were people standing buy who heard speaking in tongues on the day of Pentecost. Why would someone insist that tongues MUST always be understood by the crowd, or that unbelieving Jews must be present (which isn't even the point Paul makes from Isaiah 28 in I Corinthians 14) if he holds to the idea that a doctrine must be established by two witnesses of scripture?

He talked about people trying to prompt speaking in tongues and calling it baby tongues, or something along those lines. I'd agree that there are some flaky and childish practices when it comes to this topic. I wouldn't say that everything that claims to be speaking in tongues really is, either. I haven't heard the 'baby tongues' thing in a Pentecostal church. I have heard WOFers do such things. There is some influence back and forth, so I wouldn't say there is no Pentecostal church that does such things.

I spent part of my youth in the Assemblies of God. I moved a lot growing up. In the A/G, I heard a missions director tell a story about a preacher preaching in tongues when he had no interpreter. I also heard a testimony about a missionary who heard a message in tongues in a language he knew a bit of, that was about the Bread of life. The interpretation was about the Bread of life. The A/G, back in the 1980's when I was in it, seemed to have the idea of tongues as actual languages, if from nothing else, than the testimonies about it from the missions field. The A/G has a huge missions outreach which is why it is so large internationally. At a 'Full Gospel' church I also heard about tongues as real languages. This was more like an independent Pentecostal church in belief and style (for the era I went there), rather than a Charismatic church.

Saying Pentecostals think tongues are 'tongues of angels' sure seems like a straw man argument to me. Maybe certain groups of Charismatics think that way. WOFers may be more inclined to have some beliefs that aren't majority Pentecostal views on certain issues, in addition to the whole prosperity emphasis, emphasis on name it and claim it and all that stuff.
 
Mar 28, 2016
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Originally Posted by garee

Not sure where you got that someone had to interpret for others to be edified. The only one that could be edified is Christ.

Presidente offered..Why don't you read I Corinthians 14 through to the end in a translation that uses the word 'edify?' and maybe you'll see it. The word translated 'edify' means 'to build' or 'to build up.' It is used of construction as well.

I Corinthians 14
3 But he that prophesieth speaketh unto men to edification, and exhortation, and comfort.
4 He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.
5 I would that ye all spake with tongues but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.

See. Prophesying edifies the church. Interpreted tongues edify the church. Later in the chapter, Paul points out that if someone blesses with the spirit, he gives thanks well, but the other is not edified.
Prophesying is not a sign.Others said tongues was used for self edification as evidence they have the Holy Spirit. Signs are for those who believe not. The work at Pentecost was twofold it confirmed unbelief (no faith ) as an outward sign to the unbelieving Jew. And the prophecy, the faith principle to the three thousand souls. How can we believe, if we receive honor (venerate) one of another edifying each other , and seek not the honor that comes from God only? For of Him, through him and to him are to the glory of all things .


He that speaks in an unknown tongue edifieth himself. There is no approval to that act of self-righteousness.
No such thing as a sign gift .We walk by faith not by sight after our own experiences.

Prophesying edifies the church because it is what builds the church..(The word of God)

The church does not edify the church as if the kingdom of God was of this world or ever could be.. No such thing as self-edification by doing a work as an outward sign. They have already received their reward according to the outward sign.

The edifying (God building up) comes after the interpretation of prophecy, the bible. No prophecy no interpretation.no edification of the church.

Co 14:5 I would that ye all spake with tongues but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.


2Co 5:7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight


If our faith leads to real results, like building people up, that is not what Paul is talking about when he says walking by sight. Peter had faith and could walk on water, a miracle which people could see and which Peter could physically experience. When Peter saw the wind and waves, he doubted and could no longer do the miracle. He sank, and Jesus helped him back into the boat.
Peter never performed the miracle as if we could glory in the flesh . We walk by faith not by sight.

It’s His (Christ’s) faith that leads us (not of our own selves).

This is a good illustration of what it means to walk by sight. Peter looked at the circumstances and wavered his faith to do what Christ told Him to do. Notice he saw the wind of the waves, and the Bible says not to walk by sight.
He wavered between the imagination of his own heart and the faith of Christ that worked in him .It was not Peter’s faith that suspended the law of gravity. When Peter heard the words of faith it is God who changed the law of gravity. (Peter come) No such thing as a sign of self-edification.

The walking by faith and not by sight doctrine had to do with those who were faithless and required a sign before they world believe.

The cross, the faith issue was their stumbling block. The Jew used the ceremonial laws (shadows) as their experiences walking by sight in lieu of that work of self-edification.. Glorying in that seen, their own flesh . And not the invisible glory of God not seen through prophecy

Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow. 1Pe 1:9

Because they required a sign before they could believe, being comfortable in their own Jewish flesh as those who worked to bring the ceremonial laws that pointed ahead to the unseen glory. Christ informed them as below.

Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life. I receive not honour from men How can ye believe, which receive honour one of another, and seek not the honour that cometh from God only? They said therefore unto him, What sign shewest thou then, that we may see, and believe thee? what dost thou work?John 6:30

Joh 4:48 Then said Jesus unto him, Except ye see signs and wonders, ye will not believe.....have faith
 

presidente

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Prophesying is not a sign
The NASB translations I Corinthians 14:22 as follows:
"So then tongues are for a sign, not to those who believe but to unbelievers; but prophecy is for a sign, not to unbelievers but to those who believe"

Some prophecies are signs. One type of sign is a predictive prophecy.
Signs are for those who believe not.
In Matthew 24, the disciples ask Jesus for the sign of His coming and of the end of the age, and Jesus gives them a number of signs.

So signs are not only for them that believe not. I've pointed this types of things out to you over and over again. Yet you still keep writing these types of things.

if we receive honor (venerate) one of another edifying each other
I suggest you do a word study on the 'edification' so you can understand what it means. You seem to be confusing veneration and building up.
He that speaks in an unknown tongue edifieth himself. There is no approval to that act of self-righteousness.
Paul does not call this self-righteousness. The Bible does not call self-edification self-righteousness. Those are two different concepts. Equating them doesn't make sense.

And in the passage, speaking in tongues is good. If you speak in tongues, you edify yourself. But Paul would rather have you prophecy or interpret. In the passage, speaking in tongues-- by which you edify yourself is good. Prophesying or speaking in tongues with interpretation is better, because you edify others.

3 But one who prophesies speaks to men for edification and exhortation and consolation. 4 One who speaks in a tongue edifies himself; but one who prophesies edifies the church. 5 Now I wish that you all spoke in tongues, but even more that you would prophesy; and greater is one who prophesies than one who speaks in tongues, unless he interprets, so that the church may receive edifying. (NASB)

Your trying to make speaking in tongues out to be bad doesn't match with the flow of argument Paul is making in the text.
Paul says that he who speaks in tongues edifies himself. He wishes that you all spoke with tongues. Paul wishes that we would all edify ourselves through speaking in tongues.

Paul says that he who prophesies edifies the church. He'd rather have us prophesy than speak in tongues (or speak in tongues and interpret), so that the church might receive edifying.

Edifying yourself is something good. Paul is in favor of it. Edifying the church is better. Paul is more in favor of that.
Again, lets stick with the text.

I notice on this topic that you use a lot of religious and Biblical words and phrases to argue for ideas that the Bible does not teach, in some cases, ideas that contradict scriptures.
The church does not edify the church as if the kingdom of God was of this world or ever could be.
You should get a concordance or use an online tool like BlueLetterBible. Look up cases where 'edify', 'edication', etc. are used. It might also help to look up 'edify' in an English dictionary or a dual language dictionary with whatever you native language is. The word translated 'edify' can also be translated 'build up.' In the Bible, individual members of the body can build up the church with their spiritual gifts.

That does not make the kingdom of God of this world.

No such thing as self-edification by doing a work as an outward sign. They have already received their reward according to the outward sign.
More religious words and phrases, phrases from the Bible strung together to communicate a confusing message the Bible does not say.
The edifying (God building up) comes after the interpretation of prophecy, the bible. No prophecy no interpretation.no edification of the church.
Those aren't the only gifts that edify. Teaching also edifies. Paul treats teaching and prophesying as separate gifts. Those who prophesy operate in a revelatory gift. Teachers often explain what was revealed through revelation in the past. The gifts of the Spirit work through people. The Holy Spirit works through people, through the gifts of the Spirit, to edify others.
Peter never performed the miracle as if we could glory in the flesh . We walk by faith not by sight.
Paul did perform miracles. What does Paul performing miracles have to do with the idea of us glorifying in the flesh? What do you mean? What does this line of reasoning have to do with walking by faith and not by sight?
He wavered between the imagination of his own heart and the faith of Christ that worked in him .It was not Peter’s faith that suspended the law of gravity. When Peter heard the words of faith it is God who changed the law of gravity. (Peter come) No such thing as a sign of self-edification.
Sign of self-edification? What does that mean? Maybe you have your own private definition of self-edification.

Peter walked on water by the power of God. He was able to do so when he believed. The miracle Peter did was something physical that happened. It is wrong to think that if someone does a miracle that effects physical reality that he must be walking by sight. When Peter walked by faith, he could do the miracle. When he went by what he saw, he began to sink.
The walking by faith and not by sight doctrine had to do with those who were faithless and required a sign before they world believe.
Where do you get this idea about requiring a sign from the passage in II Corinthians which talks about walking by faith and not by sight? What is your 'walking by faith and not by sight doctrine' and where do you get it from the Bible?

There were those who would not believe unless they did a sign. God did great wonders in Egypt before people who were slow to believe. When God stretched out His hand on Egypt, the Egyptians knew that He was the Lord. God split the Red Sea through Moses. Jesus did great signs and wonders among the people, too, even though some of them would not believe without seeing a sign and wonder.

The cross, the faith issue was their stumbling block. The Jew used the ceremonial laws (shadows) as their experiences walking by sight in lieu of that work of self-edification.
It almost looks like you are using self-edification in a positive sense, here.

Because they required a sign before they could believe, being comfortable in their own Jewish flesh as those who worked to bring the ceremonial laws that pointed ahead to the unseen glory. Christ informed them as below.
This looks like a list of nearly random stream-of-consciousness, disjointed theological concepts strung together somehow in one sentence. It kind of looks like the result of playing some sort of theology MadLibs game. You'd need to explain this in detail if you want someone us to get what you are trying to say.
 

notuptome

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Sum it all up. Israel lacked faith so Israel sought signs from Jehovah God. Tongues and prophecy are sought today because of a lack of faith. Faith does not require signs. Faith requires hearing the word of God.

Joh 20:29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.


For the cause of Christ
Roger
 

stonesoffire

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The baptism of Holy Spirit is given by the Lord to His body on earth, that we might be a victorious church without spot or wrinkle. Dunamis power to proclaim and exhibit His Presence on earth!
 

notuptome

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Dunamis power is the gospel. Rom 1:16

His Spirit witnesseth with our spirit that we are His.

Ro 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 

presidente

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Sum it all up. Israel lacked faith so Israel sought signs from Jehovah God. Tongues and prophecy are sought today because of a lack of faith. Faith does not require signs. Faith requires hearing the word of God. ]
You should know better. You probably have a Bible on your shelf or on your nightstand, and we've discussed these verses before. Paul says to earnestly desire spiritual gifts, especially that ye may prophesy. So how can you say that prophesy is sought today because of a lack of faith?

The apostles prayed for signs and wonders. The Jews, particularly in Paul's day, may have asked for signs. Most unbelievers aren't out seeking for tongues and prophecies. It is not a sin, or a lack of faith, for believers to seek to function in spiritual gifts or to do signs. In Acts 4, the apostles prayed for God to stretch out His hand and to do signs and wonders for the sake of His servant Jesus. Paul tells the one who speaks with an unknown tongue to pray that he may interpret. So it is not wrong to seek God for spiritual gifts. We are commanded to covet to prophesy.

Joh 20:29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.
Refusing to believe God did a miracle without seeing it? Who does that remind me of? That is more like some of the cessationists in this discussion. Thomas did not receive the power to do heal and raise the dead because of his lack of faith. He demanded to see a miracle because of his lack of faith, before he would believe God did it.
 

notuptome

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You should know better. You probably have a Bible on your shelf or on your nightstand, and we've discussed these verses before. Paul says to earnestly desire spiritual gifts, especially that ye may prophesy. So how can you say that prophesy is sought today because of a lack of faith?

The apostles prayed for signs and wonders. The Jews, particularly in Paul's day, may have asked for signs. Most unbelievers aren't out seeking for tongues and prophecies. It is not a sin, or a lack of faith, for believers to seek to function in spiritual gifts or to do signs. In Acts 4, the apostles prayed for God to stretch out His hand and to do signs and wonders for the sake of His servant Jesus. Paul tells the one who speaks with an unknown tongue to pray that he may interpret. So it is not wrong to seek God for spiritual gifts. We are commanded to covet to prophesy.



Refusing to believe God did a miracle without seeing it? Who does that remind me of? That is more like some of the cessationists in this discussion. Thomas did not receive the power to do heal and raise the dead because of his lack of faith. He demanded to see a miracle because of his lack of faith, before he would believe God did it.
You are just fried a little hard on one side. There are more gifts for service in the body of Christ than tongues. Every believer should desire to serve the Lord in the body of Christ. Those that have the witness of the Holy Spirit know who they are and serve with humility.

You remain estranged from the truth.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 

presidente

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You are just fried a little hard on one side. There are more gifts for service in the body of Christ than tongues. Every believer should desire to serve the Lord in the body of Christ. Those that have the witness of the Holy Spirit know who they are and serve with humility.

You remain estranged from the truth.
So you consider me an unbeliever because I actually believe what the New Testament teaches on a subject, a teaching you reject?

A true witness of the Spirit is not what leads a man to reject what the Spirit has revealed. You post foolishness.

I know there are many other gifts besides speaking in tongues, the topic of this thread. I have often pointed out the importance of prophecy, a gift Paul certain emphasized and taught believers to covet. You said that people seek prophecy because of a lack of faith. Paul says he that prophesies, to let him do so according to the proportion of faith. Paul says one thing, and you say another. You are so prejudiced against spiritual gifts that you contradict scripture.

Judging people as lacking faith for obeying the Bible is a bad thing.
 

VCO

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The baptism of Holy Spirit is given by the Lord to His body on earth, that we might be a victorious church without spot or wrinkle. Dunamis power to proclaim and exhibit His Presence on earth!

You may have come up with something that I can agree with, and that is Baptism of the Holy Spirit, instead of like many who falsely label it Baptism into the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is the Baptizer, and it is the Spiritual Body of Christ that the Holy Spirit immerses us into HIM.

My understanding is the moment we Truly BELIEVE, the Holy Spirit does five Primary things:

1. He the Holy Spirit enters our heart and He will never leave us. (Jn. 14:16, Jn. 14:17, 1 Jn. 4:1-4)

2. HE births our once dead human spirit into eternal Life.
(Jn. 3:6, Col. 2:13, Jn. 3:36, Jn 5:24, Jn. 6:47)

3. He IMMERSES us into the Spiritual Body of Christ. (1 Co. 12:13. 1 Pet 5:14, Rom. 12:5, Jn. 17:23)

4. He pours GOD's Love directly into our hearts. (Rom. 5:5, Rom. 8:39 , 1 Jn. 4:12, 1 Jn. 4:16)

5. GOD's LOVE that He planted in our Hearts, produces a continuous desire to walk in obedience to HIM. (Jn. 14:15, 1 Jn 2:4-5, Ps. 52:8, 2 Thess. 3:5, 1 Jn. 3:17)
 

presidente

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The Holy Spirit baptizes us into one body.

Jesus baptizes us with the Holy Spirit.
 
B

BROROB

Guest
Paul said, "Forbid not to speak with tongues" (I Corinthians 14:39) and "I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all" (I Corinthians 14:8).
 

fredoheaven

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The NASB translations I Corinthians 14:22 as follows:
"So then tongues are for a sign, not to those who believe but to unbelievers; but prophecy is for a sign, not to unbelievers but to those who believe"

Some prophecies are signs. One type of sign is a predictive prophecy.

In Matthew 24, the disciples ask Jesus for the sign of His coming and of the end of the age, and Jesus gives them a number of signs.

So signs are not only for them that believe not. I've pointed this types of things out to you over and over again. Yet you still keep writing these types of things.
The NASV along with ASV, HNV and the ESV translated where lacking in Greek “for a sign”. ESV in all honesty, admitted that it lacks “a sign” in the Greek which may end up to some inaccuracies. Other non KJV which simply put “prophecy” which is “not a sign” would include the NIV, NKJV, NLT, HSCB, NET, RSV, YLT, DBY and WEB.

There is a problem that might be created in equating the signs of Matthew with the sign that Paul stressed in 1 Corinthians. The sign in Matthew are the signs of Christ Coming again whereas; Paul talks about tongues, a VAST DIFFERENCE. Okay, signs are not only to them that believe not as in Matthew but tongues are for a sign for those who believe not.

God bless
 

fredoheaven

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What is good in tongues is when there is one that interprets but if none interpret does no good according to Paul. This is the reason why Paul had to stress prophesying against speaking in tongues in the church.
 

fredoheaven

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The NASB translations I Corinthians 14:22 as follows:

And in the passage, speaking in tongues is good. If you speak in tongues, you edify yourself. But Paul would rather have you prophecy or interpret. In the passage, speaking in tongues-- by which you edify yourself is good. Prophesying or speaking in tongues with interpretation is better, because you edify others.

3 But one who prophesies speaks to men for edification and exhortation and consolation. 4 One who speaks in a tongue edifies himself; but one who prophesies edifies the church. 5 Now I wish that you all spoke in tongues, but even more that you would prophesy; and greater is one who prophesies than one who speaks in tongues, unless he interprets, so that the church may receive edifying. (NASB)

Your trying to make speaking in tongues out to be bad doesn't match with the flow of argument Paul is making in the text.
Paul says that he who speaks in tongues edifies himself. He wishes that you all spoke with tongues. Paul wishes that we would all edify ourselves through speaking in tongues.

Paul says that he who prophesies edifies the church. He'd rather have us prophesy than speak in tongues (or speak in tongues and interpret), so that the church might receive edifying.

Edifying yourself is something good. Paul is in favor of it. Edifying the church is better. Paul is more in favor of that.
Again, lets stick with the text.
Personal edification is not what for Paul in the Church of Corinth. Speaking in tongue which is assumed to be for self -edification is not in line with what Paul is teaching. He rather speak five words that multiple words that cannot be comprehended. Good to you this speaking of tongues is not gibberish or ecstatic yet you are still letting your Pentecostal understanding above biblical usage so far.