Continuationism or Cessationism

[posthuman]

i believe there is one gift, that is varied in its expression in each of us. all of these expressions are to be sued in service of one another -- we are all for each other. i don't believe anywhere they are mentioned in the scriptures, either by Paul or Peter, is meant to be any kind of exhaustive list, but examples common among and familiar to the audiences the epistles were written to.

some of these expressions have the purpose of being a sign.

some of the need for a sign, the time for signs, largely doesn't exist in many of our experiences. it may yet exist in times and places.

and we know that Satan himself has power to perform signs, and will perform them openly, as the cup of wrath fills.

so i'm not going to say i'm 'cessationist' or that i'm 'continuist' -- but the primary thing in my mouth to say is be careful, and don't follow signs, but follow the truth of the gospel of Jesus the Christ. it is better to have faith that whist not signs, than to be always demanding or seeking them.

God can do as He wills, and it is apparently His will that the power manifest in the apostles is not manifest today in the same way.

 

[posthuman]

it is better to have faith that whist not signs, than to be always demanding or seeking them.

heehee

 

[posthuman]

heehee

View attachment 163951

although maybe i should have spelled it "wist"

 

[Dino246]

although maybe i should have spelled it "wist"

On occasion I feel wistful about playing whist.

 

[popeye]

The doctrine of spiritual gifts is one of the things I am currently on the fence about. Men I admire greatly are arrayed on the side of both continuation of relevatory gifts and the cessation of them.

I see room for abuse of doctrines on both sides- on one extreme there is tendency for a cold reduction of the spiritual realm. An over-rationalization of the spiritual. On the other this crazed cacophony of baseless prophetic assertions and bizarre behavior.

Going by the text alone, I find myself being Cessationist one day and Continuationist the next to the point I suspect it's all dependent on how I brew my coffee in the morning.

So I'm leaving it to you, Christian Chat.

Where do you tend to fall- Cessation or Continuation?

Why?

Are there Biblical limitations you see that stop you from falling into the two extremes mentioned above?

Its like a baseball player that is a pro,has a fantastic salry,and a awesome batting average.

Someone goes up to him and says "have you seen the great authors in debate about whether baseball is still played,or did it cease in 1957"?

 

[nowyouseem033]

"If private revelations agree with scriptures, they are needless; if they disagree, they are false" John Owen

it seems that for 1800 years Christians were quite fine without the signs and wonders gifts. its only a recent resurfacing that has gone as John Macarthur would say 'charismatic chaos' on us.

 

[GODisLOVE7]

I think the revelatory gifts are on going. Meaning that I think it is necessary to receive revelation of Who Christ is and What He does for us.

So, if a person is shown their salvation and how it works, that is a gift, a revelation of Christ.

Do I think there are Prophets now? Not really. Only people who tell you the finished work of Christ, which you could read about in the bible. So really, all Christians who have received revelation of Christ can 'prophecy' of His Work and what He does.

Do I think the Holy Spirit sometimes shows people, in advance, things that will shortly come to pass? Yes. I do think that. But I don't think the Holy Spirit picks the same person every time to show these things to. So one person isn't 'THE' prophet all the time. The Holy Spirit holds prophecy and can come through different people.


Can I give proof of any of this? Not really. I can only tell you of the way the Holy Spirit gave me revelation in the knowledge of Christ. And the revelation I received did not go against any of scripture. It made scripture make sense. To me...


2 Corinthians 3:14-16
14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.
15 But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.
16 Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.

Ephesians 1:17-18

17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:
18 The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,

I really like how you said this. I know what I believe, but hard to "prove" it other than what the Holy Spirit has uncovered.

The Holy Spirit reveals to a person whether they have a spiritual gift. I would hope that one would treasure it with a humble heart and not feel the need to prove it to anyone or boast about it. If its truly from God, they would be shown how/why that gift is bestowed upon them.

As for being able to tell if others claimed gifts are truly from God or not? Well, we can pray for discernment if its a situation where we really need to know if its authentic or not.

So ya, I would likely belong in the continuation catagory!

 

[BenFTW]

"If private revelations agree with scriptures, they are needless; if they disagree, they are false" John Owen

it seems that for 1800 years Christians were quite fine without the signs and wonders gifts. its only a recent resurfacing that has gone as John Macarthur would say 'charismatic chaos' on us.

Hm... revelation is progressive is it not? I think of "justified by faith" in the Reformation. It was there all along but then people's eyes were opened to its reality. Who knows what else we are missing but can be revealed in scripture? There is much to learn. People often think they've got it down and then God drops another nugget. Every time I've felt like I had a grasp of God's Word and all there is to know thats when another nugget came along. We mustn't become complacent.

 

[BenFTW]

Cessation-ism ought to cease, it is doubt and disbelief masquerading as wisdom. None of the gifts have ceased, only people's belief. People often say they don't see any of the gifts in operation today, or haven't seen a genuine gift in operation, and use that to justify their disbelief in their activity. However, there is an issue with this. Its self-defeating. They don't believe the gifts are for today and their experience agrees with this.

Why? For the very reason that they don't believe. There is a confirmation bias that is related to expectation and faith. One might say that no one can walk on water today, and they would be right in their own estimation of disbelief. Yet, get someone who believes and that water would be as a sidewalk.

What I'm saying is that their faith has done it unto them. In fact, its what you would expect for someone who doesn't believe in anything. Nothing. Just like Jesus and His home town. Those that say they don't witness such supernatural things today is for the very reason that they don't believe in the first place. Want to see healing today? Go and do it yourself in the name of Jesus, believing Him that whatsoever you ask in His name He shall do to glorify the Father.

Cessationism is directly related to a lack of experience that is a result of disbelief. It is ignorance to the reality of the Holy Spirit's activity in equipping the saints for service, to edify one another. It ought to cease.

 

[tanakh]

I believe that certain people do have a gift of healing or discernment but not everyone. I also think that the whole subject has been brought into disrepute by people who claim to have them but don't. The whole area has become a minefield

 

[presidente]

If someone claims a direct word of knowledge are they not claiming they've received a information from God equal to the authority and value of scripture?

Saul's servant suggested Saul go to a prophet to find out where his father's lost donkeys were. Going to soothsayers was forbidden, but going to prophets of the LORD was allowed. Samuel must have received other requests to help find lost farm animals, maybe even people.

Are all the requests Samuel received to inquire of the Lord as to the location of lost sheep, donkeys, etc. of equal value of the account of his helping Saul with this issue-- and also prophesying of Saul's future as ruler over Israel? If Samuel told someone else, prophetically, where to find a donkey, that had authority. But how could it be of equal value to scripture? the account of Kish's lost donkeys is mentioned, but it ties into the narrative of what God was doing in the nation, part of a story that led up to David, etc.

Btw, you have an appropriate avatar for someone who is on the fence on this issue. Jonathan Edwards gets quoted by Charismatics on certain issues, but he may have been the one to invent notuptome's interpretation of I Corinthians 13.

By the way, you know the understanding Paul had when he wrote I Corinthians, having spent time with the Lord in the desert and all those great revelations? Well, when the perfect comes, that understanding will be like a child's understanding in comparison to Paul's understanding when the perfect gets here.

Some people interpret the passage to mean that they have greater understanding of such things than the apostles, just because they have a Bible on their desk. That doesn't make sense. There is a Martyn Lloyd Jones quote about this problem somewhere.

As Paul prepared to write I Corinthians and discuss these issues related to prophecy, speaking in tongues and interpretation, and the other gifts he would write about, he wrote,

'So that ye come behind in no spiritual gift, waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.' (I Cor. 1:7.)

We should keep that in mind when interpreting I Corinthians 13 as well.

 

[presidente]

"If private revelations agree with scriptures, they are needless; if they disagree, they are false" John Owen

That's rather narrow thinking, and certainly not in line with Biblical teaching on the subject. Think of the type of prophecies Timothy received that he might fight a good warfare. A prophecy like that is valuable to the believer who receives it. If God tells you to go to Africa and be a missionary, that's useful. It's not in the Bible, but it is not needless.

it seems that for 1800 years Christians were quite fine without the signs and wonders gifts. its only a recent resurfacing that has gone as John Macarthur would say 'charismatic chaos' on us.

Ireneaus lived around 200 AD and he was fine with gifts of the Spirit. He wrote of speaking in tongues, prophesying, foreknowledge, and raising the dead in his own day. He wrote of his own church having success with raising the dead.

St. Patrick was fine with signs and wonders. The actual works that historians recognize from him that are genuine give his testimony of a vision that rescued him from Ireland and a supernatural voice that led him back. There are many accounts of signs and wonders throughout history. You should do a little reading on the subject.

And for signs and wonders in the Reformed movement during the Reformation, read about George Wishart or for a little later in history, prophet Peden.

Btw, John MacArthur either doesn't know the history on this and pretends to, or dismissed all the accounts in history as not reliable without letting his reader know they exist.

 

[SovereignGrace]

The problem I have with the these gifts is how ppl abuse them. Everytime you turn around, it seems someone is saying someone told them that God told them something about them. It's like everybody wants to be a prophet. But I tend towards cessations(sp?) of these gifts.

The WoF'ers say they can lay hands on ppl and they receive the baptism of the Spirit, as Paul did. Then there are these 'prayer cloths' where a church comes together and prays over some limp rags and give them to the infirmed, expecting there to be power to heal the sick.

#Bleck

 

[JesusRules1]

The Church is the Church all through the Church age,and if the gifts were for back then they are for now.If there were essential back then,they are essential now.

1Co 13:8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
1Co 13:9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
1Co 13:10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
1Co 13:11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
1Co 13:12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
1Co 13:13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.

Love never fails,but whether there be prophesies they will fail,tongues will cease,and knowledge will vanish away,but we know that there is still prophesy to go,so how did it fail,and why would knowledge vanish away when God wants us to have knowledge.

They did not fail.

Love never fails,but those things will fail,but not on earth,but in heaven,for those gifts are not needed in heaven,but only on earth,and love will be the only thing that goes on forever.

We need faith,hope,and love,while on this earth,but the greatest of those is love,because faith,and hope,are only needed on this earth,not in heaven,for in heaven you do not need faith,for you see it and are there,and you do not need hope,for you have it and do no not need to hope for it anymore,but love will go on forever,which charity is love in action.

Love is the only thing that will go on forever out of all that we did concerning the kingdom of God on earth.

Prophesy is not needed in heaven,tongues is not needed in heaven,knowledge in the word of God is not needed in heaven,healing is not needed in heaven,faith is not needed in heaven,hope is not needed in heaven.

Love will be the only thing that remains out of that we did concerning the kingdom of God,and the Bible says that the old earth shall pass away,and will not be remembered,or come to mind,and at the New Jerusalem the saints will feel like they have always been there,and nowhere else,and love is the only thing that will go on forever and forever.

The gifts have not ceased,but are temporary on this earth,and they cease in heaven,for love never fails,and will go on forever,but the other things will fail when in heaven,and love is the greatest out of faith,hope,and charity,because faith,and hope,will cease in heaven,but love will go on forever.

What was for the Church at the disciples time is for now,for the operation of the Church is the same no matter the Church period.Why would it be different.

 

[BenFTW]

Saul's servant suggested Saul go to a prophet to find out where his father's lost donkeys were. Going to soothsayers was forbidden, but going to prophets of the LORD was allowed. Samuel must have received other requests to help find lost farm animals, maybe even people.

Are all the requests Samuel received to inquire of the Lord as to the location of lost sheep, donkeys, etc. of equal value of the account of his helping Saul with this issue-- and also prophesying of Saul's future as ruler over Israel? If Samuel told someone else, prophetically, where to find a donkey, that had authority. But how could it be of equal value to scripture? the account of Kish's lost donkeys is mentioned, but it ties into the narrative of what God was doing in the nation, part of a story that led up to David, etc.

Btw, you have an appropriate avatar for someone who is on the fence on this issue. Jonathan Edwards gets quoted by Charismatics on certain issues, but he may have been the one to invent notuptome's interpretation of I Corinthians 13.

By the way, you know the understanding Paul had when he wrote I Corinthians, having spent time with the Lord in the desert and all those great revelations? Well, when the perfect comes, that understanding will be like a child's understanding in comparison to Paul's understanding when the perfect gets here.

Some people interpret the passage to mean that they have greater understanding of such things than the apostles, just because they have a Bible on their desk. That doesn't make sense. There is a Martyn Lloyd Jones quote about this problem somewhere.

As Paul prepared to write I Corinthians and discuss these issues related to prophecy, speaking in tongues and interpretation, and the other gifts he would write about, he wrote,

'So that ye come behind in no spiritual gift, waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.' (I Cor. 1:7.)

We should keep that in mind when interpreting I Corinthians 13 as well.

1 Corinthians 13:12 is where you get the Cessationists.

12 [FONT=&quot]For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

He speaks of experiencing "that which is perfect is come" face to face, even saying in verse twelve that he will know even as he is known. Did the apostle Paul live until the bible completed and was formed? No, he died in 67 AD and the bible wasn't completed until the early part of the 2nd century AD. Earliest list being A.D. 140.

So if the apostle Paul didn't live to see that which is perfect is come, if that which is perfect is in reference to the Bible, then we have an issue. Or, just maybe, it is in reference to the 2nd coming of Christ and for that reason the gifts have not ceased and are still in operation today. [/FONT]

 

[presidente]

TThen there are these 'prayer cloths' where a church comes together and prays over some limp rags and give them to the infirmed, expecting there to be power to heal the sick.

#Bleck

Why do you 'bleck' that? They took cloths that Paul had touched to the sick and they were healed in Acts?

An elder at a church I attended was hesitant about anointing the sick with oil. He said that back then, oil was considered to be like a medicine and considered anointing with oil to be the cultural equivalent of giving an aspirin. I told him if that were the case, then the Bible teaches that oil is medicine, so he should anoint with oil.

The other elders were anointing the sick with oil, and one day he just decided to join in. I guess he wasn't from a church background that did that.

Are you against anointing the sick with oil, too? Is praying for the person while laying hands on the cloth and sending the cloth to that person any different?

 

[Desdichado]

Cessationists are not unbelievers. Many of them are very strong Christians with a very real appreciation for the power of the Holy Spirit and His status as God.

Cessationism and continuationism differ not in levels of belief in that regard, but rather how precisely the Holy Spirit acts. Why should they seek extra revelation or spiritual experience if they have reason via Scripture to believe such things are unnecessary and possibly dangerous?

Even as a Bush League Continuationist, I would argue that Cessationism shouldn't cease. It's a sign that people are having a care with how they interpret Scripture and living by it rather than opening Pandora's box at the other end of the spectrum.

My issue as it stands now with Cessationism is that it just seems incomplete in a way. Granpa and GodisLove touched on this too- but when the Lord sets out to find that one lost sheep, can He not use any crazy means at His disposal?

A car that automatically turns on. A supernatural visit to a Iranian who never heard of Jesus because that Iranian had to know.

If these things orient people toward God and His revealed Word and a life of faith, who is to say it didn't happen? Who is to say it wasn't God.

I mean I guess they could claim it to be an hallucination, but did God not use the hallucination?

This is my quandary, I suppose. Especially in light of the stories I've been hearing of late. A man on here had a vision while under the influence of drugs that led him to saving faith (he isn't here anymore). Another just picked up a Bible with no prompting and the Words seemed to speak to her. An Iranian Muslim pulls a 180 after a supernatural encounter.

The Gospel itself is the miracle of miracles. Wouldn't small miracles here and there serve to support that miracle?

Cessation-ism ought to cease, it is doubt and disbelief masquerading as wisdom. None of the gifts have ceased, only people's belief. People often say they don't see any of the gifts in operation today, or haven't seen a genuine gift in operation, and use that to justify their disbelief in their activity. However, there is an issue with this. Its self-defeating. They don't believe the gifts are for today and their experience agrees with this.

Why? For the very reason that they don't believe. There is a confirmation bias that is related to expectation and faith. One might say that no one can walk on water today, and they would be right in their own estimation of disbelief. Yet, get someone who believes and that water would be as a sidewalk.

What I'm saying is that their faith has done it unto them. In fact, its what you would expect for someone who doesn't believe in anything. Nothing. Just like Jesus and His home town. Those that say they don't witness such supernatural things today is for the very reason that they don't believe in the first place. Want to see healing today? Go and do it yourself in the name of Jesus, believing Him that whatsoever you ask in His name He shall do to glorify the Father.

Cessationism is directly related to a lack of experience that is a result of disbelief. It is ignorance to the reality of the Holy Spirit's activity in equipping the saints for service, to edify one another. It ought to cease.

 

[Desdichado]

Ohhhh goodness. That last post turned into a jumble. But I think the meaning is still apparent. Sleeeeeepy time.

 

[presidente]

Desdichado,

I've read that a high percentage of former Mu ham mad dans and people from Jewish backgrounds who come to Christ do so after having had a dream or vision, maybe in the 30% range. I forget the figure.

One thing to keep in mind is that there is not even a prooftext to do away with healing or miracles. Cessationists have none.

As far as cessationist and unbelief go the disciples had some faith in Jesus, but they also struggled with doubts at times. Jesus had faith when he stepped on the water, but he doubted and sank. If he didn't believe he could do the miracle and looked at the situation, he couldn't do it. And that was the apostle Peter.

 

[BenFTW]

Cessationists are not unbelievers. Many of them are very strong Christians with a very real appreciation for the power of the Holy Spirit and His status as God.

Cessationism and continuationism differ not in levels of belief in that regard, but rather how precisely the Holy Spirit acts. Why should they seek extra revelation or spiritual experience if they have reason via Scripture to believe such things are unnecessary and possibly dangerous?

Even as a Bush League Continuationist, I would argue that Cessationism shouldn't cease. It's a sign that people are having a care with how they interpret Scripture and living by it rather than opening Pandora's box at the other end of the spectrum.

My issue as it stands now with Cessationism is that it just seems incomplete in a way. Granpa and GodisLove touched on this too- but when the Lord sets out to find that one lost sheep, can He not use any crazy means at His disposal?

A car that automatically turns on. A supernatural visit to a Iranian who never heard of Jesus because that Iranian had to know.

If these things orient people toward God and His revealed Word and a life of faith, who is to say it didn't happen? Who is to say it wasn't God.

I mean I guess they could claim it to be an hallucination, but did God not use the hallucination?

This is my quandary, I suppose. Especially in light of the stories I've been hearing of late. A man on here had a vision while under the influence of drugs that led him to saving faith (he isn't here anymore). Another just picked up a Bible with no prompting and the Words seemed to speak to her. An Iranian Muslim pulls a 180 after a supernatural encounter.

The Gospel itself is the miracle of miracles. Wouldn't small miracles here and there serve to support that miracle?

God saw such gifts fit to equip His saints to edify one another. Who are they to disagree with our sovereign God on this matter, to even suggest them as being unnecessary? Dangerous? I suppose they could be if misused but dangerous to what? Unity? Evangelism? This is why its important to listen to God's leading and the wisdom that is found in 1 Corinthians 14.

We would get into another discussion if I were to start speaking on hope and faith, but suffice it to say that if a person doesn't know God's will how will they have faith and not just hope? They could hope God heals them, but if they don't know His will on the matter, what faith can there be or expectation, beyond hoping He will? Many believe He can, but that is no surprise. He is God. Who believes He will? There is faith.

All of that to say, people are confused as to God's will on healing, miracles, and even the gifts of the Spirit. They subscribe to doctrines of Cessationism and then criticize those that believe yet what foundation do they have to mock when they themselves are found to be in doubt and ignorance? If only they'd believe, they'd see.

I am not discrediting them as believers. They simply are uninformed and may God open their eyes so that they can wake up to the ways in which God has equipped them to serve others.