Continuationism or Cessationism

TMS · Dec 30, 2016

Please show me how you come to these conclusions from scripture ?? I read it and can see how the super natural helped people to speak in other languages and preach the gospel to those that would not have heard it otherwise.

"We learn that tongues are not spoken to men but to God and no man understands him because he speaks mysteries in the spirit." You twisted the scriptures here.
Why would God give a gift so that we speak gibberish and not understand what we are saying? What is the spiritual benefit.

Does God put a strange language in our mouth that we don't understand or control so that it glorifies Him (that would be God glorifying God(Himself). God could get the rocks to do that. ???

Give me some verses please.

1Co 14:2 For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.

For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God, Because it is an unknown tongue no one understands what you are saying except God. for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries. No one understands because he is speaking in an unknown tongue, so all the spirit filled preaching is a mystery to everyone except God.

1Co 14:14 For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful. His prayers and thoughts are useless when no one understands, and useless if you don't know what you are praying for.
1Co 14:15 What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.

So what is Paul really saying in 1 Cor 14:14? Please allow me to rephrase the verse in modern English: "If I pray in a language those around me do not know, I might be praying with the Spirit, but my thoughts would be unfruitful for those listening."

1Co 14:28 But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God.

TMS · Dec 30, 2016

All good things come from God. why would He hold back good gifts if It is needed today.
Don't limit God.

wattie · Dec 30, 2016

Desdichado said:

Aside from emotions..

Consider what Ephesians 4 and Corinthians 13 are putting forward as what causes sign and ministry gifts to have fulfilled their purpose.

If it is the second coming of Christ.. or the coming of perfect love (I think people that believe these two consider the perfect love to come with the 2nd coming).. then all spiritual gifts can be practiced for now.

If it is not the second coming.. but is the completed revelation of God's Word, finished with the completion of the canon and death of the apostles.. then spiritual gifts .. all of them have been put away.

What really fits properly with 1 Corinthians 13 and Ephesians 4?

Don't rely on emotions.. they are deceptive. Search the Word first.. and then base your emotions on what you know from it.

I am a cessationist.. because I have read scripture and see the 1 Corinthians 13 and Ephesians 4 don't fit with the second coming of Christ or 'perfect love'

The completed revelation of scripture.. that used the gifts of knowledge, prophecy and tongues etc.. for it to be done.. fits both passages like a glove.

That's how I see it in scripture.

Depleted · Dec 30, 2016

posthuman said:

God gives us (hubby and me) signs now and again. For me, it always comes down to the same message, "Trust me." For hubby, he gets one of two messages, "Trust me" or "I love you."

Last year about this time, I was frantic, terrified, confused, and frustrated. (Close to a month after his heart attack and one thing led to another, always making him at death's door and needing to recover enough to get a new valve in his heart because he completely blew out the old one. That day, I really needed to hear that the surgeon was going to do the operation, but something else happened instead.) I entered an elevator in a parking garage to go see hubby, and heard The Hallelujah Chorus from Handel's Messiah. I thought I may have lost my last screw in my head, until I saw the choir singing it in the lobby of that building, but honestly, God was telling me, "Trust me."

Long ago, hubby was on a ladder working on a part of a heater in a candle factory 20 feet above the floor. Candle factory, so the floor was slick with wax. The ladder slid out from under him, and he was falling into a pile of wooden crates below. He heard God tell him he needed to get his attention to remind him that God loved him. Then God gave him some unexpected time off from work, so hubby could read the Bible to learn God really loves him.

Maybe we don't need signs, but I don't recall when one wasn't truly appreciated and timely.

Depleted · Dec 30, 2016

presidente said:

Nah! I realize by the time you reread what you wrote, you know what went wrong there. BUT, just saying, this is something I have against spellcheck, as it seems to work on cellphones. On the other hand, I do like what it did to that first sentence. (I chuckled.)

Depleted · Dec 30, 2016

zone said:

With that logic, can't we also go with since Kenneth Copeland and Joel Olsteen flourish, that's proof there are no Christians?

TMS · Dec 30, 2016

Eph 4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
Eph 4:12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
Eph 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

All of these things have not happened yet... unity, the perfect man is Christ, and we don't become sinless until the second coming.

1Co 13:8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
1Co 13:9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
1Co 13:10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

Compareing things that fail to charity (love) which never fails. the context shows that love is unfailing but prophecy and knowledge do fail, things of this world will fail and cease but love will never fail.
That which is perfect is come (God is Love), then that which is in part (things of this world) shall be done away.
When Jesus comes the things of this world that disappoint will pass away. That is logical isn't it.

Depleted · Dec 30, 2016

TMS said:

Post #14, second paragraph, in the parentheses. Yeah, really. I already told the story of that happening in modern times. (In the 1990's, but I still consider that modern times.)

I also think that's what happened on Pentecost. The disciples spoke words they didn't understand, but others did.

presidente · Dec 30, 2016

wattie said:

Back up a minute. What do you put in the 'sign gift' category? Where in the Bible do you get a teaching that there are certain gifts that are 'sign gifts' that all behave the same way? Show me where the Bible teaches that the gifts of healing or the gift of the working of miracles would ever cease? You are making a lot of assumptions and basing doctrines on those assumptions rather than scripture.

As if those are the only two options?

The passage speaks of perfection, the coming perfect that will occur. Whatever it is, the understanding Paul had that he recorded in the New Testament scriptures when he wrote I Corinthians, will be childish in comparison to the understanding Paul will have after the perfect comes.

It does not fit. When the New Testament scriptures were completed, how did that effect Paul's understanding and make it like an adult? Paul had already received the Gospel and understood it when he wrote I Corinthians. He'd spent the years in the desert. The coming of the perfect will make that understanding seem childish by comparison.

SovereignGrace · Dec 30, 2016

shittim said:

Is anyone among you in trouble? Let them pray. Is anyone happy? Let them sing songs of praise. Is anyone among you sick? Let them call the elders of the church to pray over them and anoint them with oil in the name of the Lord. And the prayer offered in faith will make the sick person well; the Lord will raise them up. If they have sinned, they will be forgiven. Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous person is powerful and effective.[James 5:13-16]

I understand the context here being the believers. Now, I have known many who have had a member in their family who was lost have the church pray for them. Now, in that context above, wouldn't their sins be forgiven, too? I have seen many who have had the laying on of hands and they still died from that infirmity. I tend to think(and I could be wrong here, and am willing to be changed if biblical support{properly exegeted}is presented) this ceased. I see too many dying who have had many churches praying for them.

OneFaith · Dec 31, 2016

Desdichado said:

If you are referring to the gift of miracles, miracles have ceased, yet there remains great power in prayer. Miracles had a purpose- which was to identify that a prophet really was from God, that Jesus really was the Christ, and that the twelve really were Christ's apostles. Paul even left Timothy sick when he could have healed him, because he understood that miracles had a purpose, and convenience was not it.

We no longer need prophets to tell us what God says, because we now have His complete Word to us (the Bible), so we also no longer need miracles to identify them. But faith, hope, and love still remain. The reason it said "Soon to disappear" instead of "Has disappeared" is because at the time it was written the apostles were still alive- therefore miracles were still here, until the completion of Revelation and the apostle's physical lives on this earth.

We now have the complete (some translations say perfect) Word of God, and when completion comes, what was incomplete disappears. When perfection comes, what was not perfect disappears. Where there are prophesies, they will cease. The only way one can prophesy today is to tell others what the Bible already prophesies. Do some gifts still exist today? Yes, but not miracles. Unexplainable things happen through the power of prayer, but you will not find someone walking on water, raising the dead, controlling the weather, instantly healing the blind, etc.

88 · Dec 31, 2016

Keep your eyes open ---- miracles will become a daily conversation---- God's Mercy is about to be put on display...

presidente · Dec 31, 2016

OneFaith said:

I see a human-conceived their in your post, not taught in scripture. The purpose(s) for miracles is(are) broader than that. Consider the apostles. When Jesus first sent them out and had them preach and do miracles, were they prophets They preached a message they heard. After Pentecost in Acts 2, Peter began to have experiences like a prophet, with the Ananias and Saphira incident, the vision about the animals, and seeing an angel.

And why would Stephen or Philip, those appointed to feed widows, do miracles while preaching a message they heard fromt he apstles if the mriacles were to confirm the apostles. Why would Christians way up in Corinth receive a gift of the working of miracles to benefit the body of Christ if the purpsoes were as limited as what you say. You are making up doctrine, and then arguing for cessationism based off made up doctrine.

You can show scripture confirming the word when the apostles preached it. You can't show from scripture that this was the only purpose of miracles, or that miracles were only to confirm the word for a short time. In the Bible, signs confirmed the word as it was preached. The word is still preached today.

Where did you get the part about Paul's motive? I think you just made that up. I can't find that in my Bible.

One thing we can learn for this passage is practical care for our health. Even a miracle worker believed in that.

The problem is, if we actually open up and read what the Bible says about the gift of prophecy, it says to covet the gift, to allow the prophets to speak two or three, and not to despise prophesyings. It does not teach that we no longer need prophecy or prophets. So should we believe the Bible, or men's theories about the Bible?

Much of the New Testament is the understanding of the Gospel revealed to Paul. In Ephesians, he writes, 'that by reading this, ye might understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ. When the perfect comes, the understanding Paul had will seem like a child's understanding in comparison to his understanding after the perfect comes. The Bible does not fit that description.

The second sentence contradicts the first.

presidente · Dec 31, 2016

SovereignGrace, that passage says 'Are there any sick among you?' Not 'are there any sick among the unbelievers?'

notuptome · Dec 31, 2016

Continuation without cessation in this thread leads to vanity ad nauseam.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Stephen63 · Dec 31, 2016

zone said:

Wrong. It happened to Gentiles too. Read your Bible.

notuptome · Dec 31, 2016

zone said:

Peter did not mention the signs in the heavens that were not a Pentecost. Joel said there would be signs in the heavens.

Joel 2:28 ¶ And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:
29 And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit.
30 And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke.
31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.
32 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call.

Pentecost was only a partial fulfillment. Complete fulfillment at the tribulation latter part just before the Lord returns.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

willfollowsGod · Dec 31, 2016

I am a continuationist and as for 1 Corinthians 13, we read that chapter in context, the verse (often quoted by cessationists) in context, and the general flow of the letter to the church at Corinth, which was wayward but also asked Paul some questions in a letter which has ceased to exist nowadays. Basically, Paul answered the questions they had and lovingly rebuked, but never called them unbelievers at all. Based on examining what the Greek was, how it was translated into English, etc it is referring to the second coming of Christ and not the completion of the Bible. I appreciate R.C. Sproul's teaching but I can never be a cessationist. There will always be counterfeit and true teachers and prophets, this was a problem in the Old Testament this was also a problem in the New Testament. It still is a problem today and some people like to put the finger and falsely claim some people are false teachers and prophets. I never was a fan of someone calling themselves Apostle so and so, since that was a specific title given by God to those in that ministry. I like Todd White and his ministry. I do not speak in tongues (unless you mean English and Spanish, not that heavenly language I have heard about). There was one time, I all of a sudden thought of someone I had not thought of really much and instantly started praying for them. While one must not trust their emotions, God can touch our emotions. When I was in my church, the pastor did his sermon. My mom explained why Jesus died on the cross but I still did not get it. Then I heard the sermon and started bawling my eyes out (I can't stand when someone sees someone crying and says are you ok? I understand why they say it but there is nothing wrong with crying). To all those macho men out there, we men also have lacrimal glands so we're allowed to cry. A long time ago, I witnessed to a prodigal Christian named John in ICQ and they came back to Christ and I had a spiritual euphoria that was hard to comprehend and I think I was on here and told pretty much everyone and my mom about it. I just could not be silent. So between my experience, Scripture, and testimony, I just cannot limit God and put him in a box. If God did miracles in the Old and New Testament, he still does and can do them today, I even heard a lot of these stories through Voice of the Martyrs and other good Christian groups, not just hearsay. While I appreciate what I hear, listen to, and read in my church, I am beginning to wonder, if some people are missing out on the spiritual gifts that God can give them through his Holy Spirit, that we are sealed by when we come to Christ or are drawn to Christ. God bless my brothers and sisters in Christ.

Depleted · Dec 31, 2016

I am a concessionist-cessationist. That is, I believe most gifts still continue, except two offices do not -- apostle and prophet.

I can prove this theory through several scriptures, (if I have to. It's a lot of work to do that, so if no one takes me up on that, THANK YOU. lol)

Des asked something of the cessationists that hasn't happened yet. He asked for proof through scripture. Proof! That means something. Do you buy that God thinks a day = 1000 years simply because you can find that one verse in the Bible? Or is a day usually a day, i.e. 24 hours?

How can we say we believe something is biblical, if we only find one verse that could mean that? Doesn't proof mean more than one verse? Something solid to lean on?

Sooo, okey dokey. I'm in a denomination of rooted cessationists, and they gave me that one and only verse. (Good ole 1 Cor. 13, of course.) It doesn't work for me because it's vague.

You're a cessationist because you've studied the word and come to believe that? Cool! Bring on the proof! Solidify it from more than one verse, because let's face it. God doesn't really think a day is 1000 years either. The Word proves itself. So, give us the words.

Stephen63 · Dec 31, 2016

There's only one scripture used to verify cessationist's claims, & it's twisted to mean something it doesn't.

ALL the cessationists I've encountered REFUSE to read a commentary concerning 1Cor 13: 8-12

They say you can't trust the writings of men..... right.

New American Standard Bible
2Cor 13:1 This is the third time I am coming to you. EVERY FACT IS TO BE CONFIRMED BY THE TESTIMONY OF TWO OR THREE WITNESSES.

So what I do is check at least three commentaries for meaning & confirmation. If I'm still suspicious, I go then to the Greek or Hebrew.

Barnes' Notes on the Bible
But when that which is perfect is come - Does come; or shall come. This proposition is couched in a general form. It means that when anything which is perfect is seen or enjoyed, then that which is imperfect is forgotten, laid aside, or vanishes. Thus, in the full and perfect light of day, the imperfect and feeble light of the stars vanishes. The sense here is, that "in heaven" - a state of absolute perfection - that which is "in part," or which is imperfect, shall be lost in superior brightness. All imperfection will vanish. And all that we here possess that is obscure shall be lost in the superior and perfect glory of that eternal world. All our present unsatisfactory modes of obtaining knowledge shall be unknown. All shall be clear, bright, and eternal.

Matthew Poole's Commentary
But when we come to heaven, we shall be in such a state, as nothing shall or can be added to us; then our partial and imperfect knowledge shall be swallowed up in a knowledge perfect and complete.

Bengel's Gnomen
1 Corinthians 13:10. Ἔλθῃ, is come) in its own time, by degrees, not by a sudden bound. In spiritual things, those of weaker age ought not too eagerly to aim at what belongs to those, who have reached greater maturity. That, which is perfect, comes at death; 2 Corinthians 5:7 : and at the last day.—τότε, then) not before. Therefore prophecy and knowledge never entirely pass away in this life.

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[TR]
[TD]Strong's Concordance

teleios: having reached its end, i.e. complete, by ext. perfect

Original Word: τέλειος, α, ον
Part of Speech: Adjective
Transliteration: teleios
Phonetic Spelling: (tel'-i-os)
Short Definition: perfect, full-grown
Definition: perfect, (a) complete in all its parts, (b) full grown, of full age, (c) specially of the completeness of Christian character.HELPS Word-studies
Cognate: 5046 téleios (an adjective, derived from 5056/télos, "consummated goal") – mature (consummated) from going through the necessary stages to reach the end-goal, i.e. developed into a consummating completion by fulfilling the necessary process (spiritual journey). See 5056 (telos).
[This root (tel-) means "reaching the end (aim)." It is well-illustrated with the old pirate's telescope, unfolding (extending out) one stage at a time to function at full-strength (capacity effectiveness).]
NAS Exhaustive Concordance
Word Origin
from telos
Definition
having reached its end, i.e. complete, by ext. perfect
NASB Translation
complete (2), mature (4), more perfect (1), perfect (12).Thayer's Greek Lexicon
STRONGS NT 5046: τέλειος

τέλειος, τελεία, τέλειον (τέλος), in classic Greek sometimes also τέλειος, τέλειον (cf. Winers Grammar, § 11,1), from Homer down, the Sept. several times for שָׁלֵם, תָּמִים, etc.; properly, brought to its end, finished; lacking nothing necessary to completeness; perfect: ἔργον, James 1:4; ἡ ἀγάπη, 1 John 4:18; ὁ νόμος, James 1:25; (δώρημα, James 1:17); τελειοτερα σκηνή, a more perfect (excellent) tabernacle, Hebrews 9:11; τό τέλειον, substantively, that which is perfect: consummate human integrity and virtue, Romans 12:2 (others take it here as an adjective belonging to θέλημα); the perfect state of all things, to be ushered in by the return of Christ from heaven, 1 Corinthians 13:10;

Since this is when we get to Heaven, that means there's absolutely no scriptural evidence for cessationism at all.

For continuationism, there's no expiration date mentioned anywhere for the baptism of the Holy Spirit or the spiritual gifts.[/TD]
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Continuationism or Cessationism

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