Tongues Again???
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Hallo Stonesoffire, i dont know which bibel you use, but from the context and the history of the text jesaja nothing is said about the gift of tongues which we found at pentecost ore corinthians. Who is the "he" in 28,11?
If i understand you rigth, then all people who are baptised with the Holy Spirit will speak in tongues, prophecie ore word of wisdom. Do you mean when a person comes to christ and receive the Holy Spirit? Ore you mean a special baptising with the Holy Spirit?
If i understand you rigth, then all people who are baptised with the Holy Spirit will speak in tongues, prophecie ore word of wisdom. Do you mean when a person comes to christ and receive the Holy Spirit? Ore you mean a special baptising with the Holy Spirit?
Hi VCO,
"When we let Scripture interpret Scripture, the Truth becomes obvious. The problem today is that many to interpret Scripture, are letting person experience over rule what the Scriptures actually say."
I agree with you!
We have the word of God and we have also the Holy Spirit. For what we need miracles and signs in the churches?
Brings the "gift of speaking in tongues" a child of god closer to the father, then a child who is not speaking in tongues?
The bible says through Paul clear that not all will receiving the gift of speaking in tongues. Are they now disadvantaged to somebody who has the gift of speaking in tongues?
About healing you mentionded, i understand that the eldest have the authority to act according James 5; And I also understand that the healing which we read about in the gospel and in acts where in first line to proof that Jesus is the messajah and that the apostel has no the authority from God given as a proof that God is behind. It was not the Goal from Jesus to heal all people physically. He never searched sick people. He came when he was asked for, ore when the crowds came to him to be healed. And we have also to recognize that all people which he healed later finaly died, even Lazarus died later. And we can read in the gospel and acts that not all people who see the miracles ore got the healing believes in Jesus. Faith is coming through hearing the word of god (Romans 10,14) and a open heart through the Holy Spirit.
How many people are running today to miracles healer, but are not ready to obey the word of God?
"When we let Scripture interpret Scripture, the Truth becomes obvious. The problem today is that many to interpret Scripture, are letting person experience over rule what the Scriptures actually say."
I agree with you!
We have the word of God and we have also the Holy Spirit. For what we need miracles and signs in the churches?
Brings the "gift of speaking in tongues" a child of god closer to the father, then a child who is not speaking in tongues?
The bible says through Paul clear that not all will receiving the gift of speaking in tongues. Are they now disadvantaged to somebody who has the gift of speaking in tongues?
About healing you mentionded, i understand that the eldest have the authority to act according James 5; And I also understand that the healing which we read about in the gospel and in acts where in first line to proof that Jesus is the messajah and that the apostel has no the authority from God given as a proof that God is behind. It was not the Goal from Jesus to heal all people physically. He never searched sick people. He came when he was asked for, ore when the crowds came to him to be healed. And we have also to recognize that all people which he healed later finaly died, even Lazarus died later. And we can read in the gospel and acts that not all people who see the miracles ore got the healing believes in Jesus. Faith is coming through hearing the word of god (Romans 10,14) and a open heart through the Holy Spirit.
How many people are running today to miracles healer, but are not ready to obey the word of God?
Yes and therefore making the “faith of Christ” through prophecy(the word of Christ) to no effect,in exchange for an experience of the glorying in the flesh.(self edification)
The key we walk by faith(the unseen eternal)and not after our own experiences.(walking by sight).
2Corinthians 5:7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight
It’s like men will say; you don’t have to go to church in order to become a Christian. But don’t show up for a while and expect other to say maybe he never got saved, showing their misunderstanding (no faith) We are not saved by the work we perform and call that walking by faith.(Not after our experiences) .
The law below not subject to change,.Some look at it as a good suggestion but not a law by which we can believe God.
1Co 14:22 Wherefore tongues are for a sign, “not to them that believe”, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.
No such thing as a sign gift as some work we can do outwardly as evidence we have the Holy Spirit.
Why even look for a sign?
The law states clearly signs are for those who believe not (no faith). The Jew just as in the same way today with other sects (Charismatic) that require seeking after signs or they would believe unless they were shown one.
The two fold incident at Pentecost worked two ways. One as a sign it confirmed prophecy revealing those who have no faith, and to the other prophecy by which they did hear God and was given the faith of Christ so they could believe to the salvation of one’s soul.
Failing to distinguish one from the other shows us the father of lies is working getting his foot in the door..It’s his MO. making the things of men, the things of God. This offends God who is not served by human hands in any way shape or form.
The key we walk by faith(the unseen eternal)and not after our own experiences.(walking by sight).
2Corinthians 5:7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight
It’s like men will say; you don’t have to go to church in order to become a Christian. But don’t show up for a while and expect other to say maybe he never got saved, showing their misunderstanding (no faith) We are not saved by the work we perform and call that walking by faith.(Not after our experiences) .
The law below not subject to change,.Some look at it as a good suggestion but not a law by which we can believe God.
1Co 14:22 Wherefore tongues are for a sign, “not to them that believe”, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.
No such thing as a sign gift as some work we can do outwardly as evidence we have the Holy Spirit.
Why even look for a sign?
The law states clearly signs are for those who believe not (no faith). The Jew just as in the same way today with other sects (Charismatic) that require seeking after signs or they would believe unless they were shown one.
The two fold incident at Pentecost worked two ways. One as a sign it confirmed prophecy revealing those who have no faith, and to the other prophecy by which they did hear God and was given the faith of Christ so they could believe to the salvation of one’s soul.
Failing to distinguish one from the other shows us the father of lies is working getting his foot in the door..It’s his MO. making the things of men, the things of God. This offends God who is not served by human hands in any way shape or form.
garee wrote,
If you are saying that signs are only for them that do not believe, then you contradict scripture and you are wrong. How many times have I pointed out to you?
In Matthew 24, the disciples, who believed in Jesus, asked for the sign of Jesus' coming and of the end of the age. Jesus gave them a number of signs.
I can show verses about signs for them that don't believe.
Again, you post a bunch of theological phrases, but a lot of the arguments you make aren't Biblical. I've point that out time and time again with specific scriptures, yet you keep repeating the same old stuff.
If you are saying that signs are only for them that do not believe, then you contradict scripture and you are wrong. How many times have I pointed out to you?
In Matthew 24, the disciples, who believed in Jesus, asked for the sign of Jesus' coming and of the end of the age. Jesus gave them a number of signs.
I can show verses about signs for them that don't believe.
Again, you post a bunch of theological phrases, but a lot of the arguments you make aren't Biblical. I've point that out time and time again with specific scriptures, yet you keep repeating the same old stuff.
Jesus also said it was an evil and adulterous generation that sought a sign.
Mt 12:39 But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas:
Now this was to Israel and not to Gentiles. That little distinction is of little consequence to you since you seek to manipulate the word of God to say what you want.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
Mt 12:39 But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas:
Now this was to Israel and not to Gentiles. That little distinction is of little consequence to you since you seek to manipulate the word of God to say what you want.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
I know, you want to hear from their side of this issue, what they seem to find impossible to answer. What I posted is why you will not get a satisfactory answer from them. Genuine Tongues was an Apostolic Sign to confirm the N.T. to unbelieving Jews, and not a gift. In fact in my WORDsearch Bible Software, I have 12 versions of the Bible open every time, and when I do a search for "gift tongues" it comes up with NO RESULTS, meaning their is NO verse that has both words in it. They have built their doctrine on an ASSUMPTION. When you look and the list of gifts in Romans 12:6-8, the Miraculous Signs (not gifts) are absent, which they cannot explain either. When Paul wrote to the Corinthians, who were having a great deal of confusion over the gifts and signs, Paul simply grouped them together when he wrote to straighten out their confusion.
Their error in thinking the Tongues were PROOF of the Spirit Baptism is based on yet another erroneous ASSUMPTION of interpretation. The truth is the Genuine Tongues offered evidence to Unbelieving JEWS , that these new words (our N.T.) the Apostles were speaking came from GOD (Mark 16:20, 1 Co. 1:22 & 14:22), just like the Prophets did in the O.T.
Helping to confuse the issue is the fact that they call it Baptism in the Spirit, when the Bible actually says:
1 Corinthians 12:13 (NKJV)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body--whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free--and have all been made to drink into one Spirit.
That makes the Spirit the one who immerses us into the spiritual body of Christ the moment we Believe, including the Thief on the Cross.
Their error in thinking the Tongues were PROOF of the Spirit Baptism is based on yet another erroneous ASSUMPTION of interpretation. The truth is the Genuine Tongues offered evidence to Unbelieving JEWS , that these new words (our N.T.) the Apostles were speaking came from GOD (Mark 16:20, 1 Co. 1:22 & 14:22), just like the Prophets did in the O.T.
Helping to confuse the issue is the fact that they call it Baptism in the Spirit, when the Bible actually says:
1 Corinthians 12:13 (NKJV)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body--whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free--and have all been made to drink into one Spirit.
That makes the Spirit the one who immerses us into the spiritual body of Christ the moment we Believe, including the Thief on the Cross.
I see you like to throw some insult or accusation out, whether it makes sense or not.Of course, Jesus was talking to Israel. A wicked and adulterous generation seeks after a sign, Jesus said. He did not say everyone who seeks a sign is wicked and adulterous. He did not call His own disciples wicked or adulterous when they asked for a sign.A wicked and adutlerous generation drinks water, too. Do you drink water?
An old Baptist evangelist I knew once said that if God is dialing your number and your phone is ringing then you ought to pick it up.
If you think it is evil to misappropriate an apostolic gift then to you it is evil. Jesus did not call His apostles evil and adulterous but the rest of Israel to whom He was speaking was not receiving His words but sought only a sign. Do you think Jesus knew what was in their hearts?
I don't know what is in your heart but Jesus knows us both an He does know. My conscience is clear on the matter I have only shown you scripture.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
If you think it is evil to misappropriate an apostolic gift then to you it is evil. Jesus did not call His apostles evil and adulterous but the rest of Israel to whom He was speaking was not receiving His words but sought only a sign. Do you think Jesus knew what was in their hearts?
I don't know what is in your heart but Jesus knows us both an He does know. My conscience is clear on the matter I have only shown you scripture.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
My favorite bible for study is the KJV. My bible for relaxed reading is the Amplified, but I use all that I have access to for research. Which do you use?
I read a pamphlet many years ago called The Pattern Son. I think it was written by Bill Britton but am not sure now. Anyway, that booklet set in motion for me how I would see Jesus, and how my spiritual life should be.
Something happened to Jesus at His water baptism. He very God Himself tells John that He must be baptized in water to fulfill righteousness. So I don't argue water baptism has no purpose now. So what happened there? The image of a dove is seen coming out of heaven and resting on Jesus. Is this not the anointing to start the ministry of Jesus? My answer is yes it is. That's the same anointing of the OT prophets..Holy Spirit came on them or simply the power and presence of the very Spirit of Father, comes like the prophets did to Kings, anoints. So Jesus is anointed Prophet, King, and Priest here. Fully God but anointed man.
Now, looking at the disciples. Jesus gives His authority of His name to them and they move out of His name doing His works as Prophets. Already repented in Johns water baptism. Did they know who Jesus was? Not really. They saw Him as King possibly, but Priest? No.
That comes after Jesus is resurrected, and at His final fellowshipping with them, He breathes on them, for they have now seen His Priesthood as Savior and Lord. My belief? They are now born again..they and we receive the Spirit of Christ, the declaration of God Himself, that we are His.
Most of the church today has stopped here. The baptism of Holy Spirit is the work of Jesus Himself on His body, His overwhelming presence and power of anointing upon us and equip us for ministry. Which no missionary or member of His body should resist. It is His will. It's our entrance into the place where we are stronger as Spirit men and women, than natural mankind. Where our old life dies, and our new created being begins.
For some, it is two separate experiences. I can pinpoint both days I received. The day of Holy Spirit, I felt a wind stepping into me. Is the only way to describe it. The result for me was worship and out of that came my language.
For others, it may happen at the water baptism. God chooses.
Isaiah 28 is a prophetic picture of the leaders in Israel resisting their own Messiah. He offers His people eternal life, life in Spirit, not just in heaven, but beginning on earth. But, only a remnant received. Why? They were drunk from wine, strong drink. A prophetic picture of drinking the wrong spirit. Then those of stammering lips come and testify...they persecute and kill them. So, the word of the Lord remains line upon line, precept upon precept. Dust Words until life is received. For He is that Word of life.
I apologize for the length is this post but I'm a simple person with a simple message. I know of what I speak.
I read a pamphlet many years ago called The Pattern Son. I think it was written by Bill Britton but am not sure now. Anyway, that booklet set in motion for me how I would see Jesus, and how my spiritual life should be.
Something happened to Jesus at His water baptism. He very God Himself tells John that He must be baptized in water to fulfill righteousness. So I don't argue water baptism has no purpose now. So what happened there? The image of a dove is seen coming out of heaven and resting on Jesus. Is this not the anointing to start the ministry of Jesus? My answer is yes it is. That's the same anointing of the OT prophets..Holy Spirit came on them or simply the power and presence of the very Spirit of Father, comes like the prophets did to Kings, anoints. So Jesus is anointed Prophet, King, and Priest here. Fully God but anointed man.
Now, looking at the disciples. Jesus gives His authority of His name to them and they move out of His name doing His works as Prophets. Already repented in Johns water baptism. Did they know who Jesus was? Not really. They saw Him as King possibly, but Priest? No.
That comes after Jesus is resurrected, and at His final fellowshipping with them, He breathes on them, for they have now seen His Priesthood as Savior and Lord. My belief? They are now born again..they and we receive the Spirit of Christ, the declaration of God Himself, that we are His.
Most of the church today has stopped here. The baptism of Holy Spirit is the work of Jesus Himself on His body, His overwhelming presence and power of anointing upon us and equip us for ministry. Which no missionary or member of His body should resist. It is His will. It's our entrance into the place where we are stronger as Spirit men and women, than natural mankind. Where our old life dies, and our new created being begins.
For some, it is two separate experiences. I can pinpoint both days I received. The day of Holy Spirit, I felt a wind stepping into me. Is the only way to describe it. The result for me was worship and out of that came my language.
For others, it may happen at the water baptism. God chooses.
Isaiah 28 is a prophetic picture of the leaders in Israel resisting their own Messiah. He offers His people eternal life, life in Spirit, not just in heaven, but beginning on earth. But, only a remnant received. Why? They were drunk from wine, strong drink. A prophetic picture of drinking the wrong spirit. Then those of stammering lips come and testify...they persecute and kill them. So, the word of the Lord remains line upon line, precept upon precept. Dust Words until life is received. For He is that Word of life.
I apologize for the length is this post but I'm a simple person with a simple message. I know of what I speak.
Tit 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
Holy Spirit baptism is received at the moment we trust Christ to save us. The quickening of the new birth is by the entrance of the Holy Spirit.
Without the baptism of the Holy Spirit there is not new birth unto eternal life in Christ.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
Holy Spirit baptism is received at the moment we trust Christ to save us. The quickening of the new birth is by the entrance of the Holy Spirit.
Without the baptism of the Holy Spirit there is not new birth unto eternal life in Christ.
For the cause of Christ
Roger