Idolatry

[Willie-T]

Willie, I need to roll.

Have fun in your thread.

And I can't speak for anyone else, but if you will give sources for your quotes, I'll will try to be fair about what you draw from them.
I always prefer sourced to be quoted.

Sometimes knowing the source helps us to do things like DEFINE TERMS before we start discussion...
as the author may have very different definitions of things.

You and I are not deconstructionists in the literary sense, so I think we both want to know what the author actually meant, and how he was using certain words.

That's all.

I get suspicious when sources are not given.
But if you do that, I'll try to be fair about it.

I don't plagiarize. And I didn't try to slide that by like it was not something I simply read this morning.

I did not ask anyone to embrace a theology. BUT I do hope this ridiculous conversation has gotten some of the thinkers here to realize that they may not only be ignoring GOOD things people they are supposed to hate say, but that they might also be swallowing some things the people they are suppose to idolize are selling as God's word.

Both 777 and I have often said that there are numerous things Joseph Prince believes that we totally disagree with, but ................... We can distinguish the meat from the bones in just about anyone's teaching. People, we should not have to be told who we can listen to, and who we can't.

 

[Willie-T]

The truth is truth regardless of who says it.

Thank you, Kody. And that was my point. There were startling and eye opening truths in the OP I posted. But many of us never see them.... we just keep right on keeping on, without ever "doubting" the absolute, perfect things we have been told and taught to just accept.

 

[Willie-T]

My wife has been following this. And she just said, "Ya know, there were a lot of things Jesus said that, even today, we still don't like hearing."

Those of you wanting to dispute that, BE CAREFUL, my wife has a unique ability to rip us wide open with Jesus' words.

 

[maxwel]

I don't plagiarize. And I didn't try to slide that by like it was not something I simply read this morning.

I did not ask anyone to embrace a theology. BUT I do hope this ridiculous conversation has gotten some of the thinkers here to realize that they may not only be ignoring GOOD things people they are supposed to hate say, but that they might also be swallowing some things the people they are suppose to idolize are selling as God's word.

Both 777 and I have often said that there are numerous things Joseph Prince believes that we totally disagree with, but ................... We can distinguish the meat from the bones in just about anyone's teaching. People, we should not have to be told who we can listen to, and who we can't.

Willie,

I'm not accusing you of plagiarism,
and I'm not accusing you of any ill intentions.

Now that you've brought it up,
I totally understand the issue of WHY you are sometimes reluctant to give your source.
Thank you for bringing that up, and helping me to see it differently.

If you want to quote people, and give the source,
I will try to do a better job of discussing the topic,
rather than discussing unrelated views of the author.
I will try to be more fair.

But I would still ask that you please give the source,
as this often gives us insight into the proper meaning of the quote,
like the precise definitions and uses of words.

* As we all know, different authors can mean different things with the same words. When Plato uses a word like "forms" he means something completely different than an author writing about basement construction. So knowing the author often helps us to understand the correct meaning of the quote.



If you will share the author of a quote,
to help us clarify the quote,
then I will try to do a better job of focusing on the quote.
And I will encourage others to do the same.

 

[Willie-T]

Willie,

I'm not accusing you of plagiarism,
and I'm not accusing you of any ill intentions.

Now that you've brought it up,
I totally understand the issue of WHY you are sometimes reluctant to give your source.
Thank you for bringing that up, and helping me to see it differently.

If you want to quote people, and give the source,
I will try to do a better job of discussing the topic,
rather than discussing unrelated views of the author.
I will try to be more fair.

But I would still ask that you please give the source,
as this often gives us insight into the proper meaning of the quote,
like the precise definitions and uses of words.

* As we all know, different authors can mean different things with the same words. When Plato uses a word like "forms" he means something completely different than an author writing about basement construction. So knowing the author often helps us to understand the correct meaning of the quote.



If you will share the author of a quote,
to help us clarify the quote,
then I will try to do a better job of focusing on the quote.
And I will encourage others to do the same.

Fair 'nuff.

 

[oldethennew]

we will eventually re-invision Jesus' Reality and embrace it for all it's/we're worth! -
IF we are called, and chosen and elected...according to His Time-Table...

 

[Tinuviel]

Something interesting I read just this morning:

“Orthodoxy is idolatry if it means holding the 'correct opinions about God' - 'fundamentalism' is the most extreme and salient example of such idolatry - but not if it means holding faith in the right way, that is, not holding it at all but being held by God, in love and service. Theology is idolatry if it means what we say about God instead of letting ourselves be addressed by what God has to say to us. Faith is idolatrous if it is rigidly self-certain but not if it is softened in the waters of 'doubt'.”

Amen! It is very dangerous when a person comes to the point of thinking they are completely right about everything. At the same time, a completely open-minded person, who is not solidly grounded in Christ and continuously searching the scriptures, is also a danger to themselves.

 

[oldethennew]

focusing and feeling His safety rather than the dangers, is quite a leap in Faith,
and not to be taken lightly, it makes a closer walk...

 

[Utah]

" . . . Faith is idolatrous if it is rigidly self-certain but not if it is softened in the waters of 'doubt'.”

Ahhh, those 3:00am wake ups when you can't get back to sleep, your mind starts to wander, and you question whether or not God really does exist. I gave a sermon on that once and was amazed at the response: scores of people, including pillars of the church community, approached me, some with tears in their eyes, felt relieved knowing other people besides themselves have moments like that, and that God in His everlasting, glorious love, understands, and is forgiving. Amen.

 

[oldethennew]

1COR. 9:10-11-12-13-14.
Or saith He altogether for our sakes? For our sakes, no doubt is written: that he that plows
in Hope; and that he that threshes in Hope should be partaker of His Hope.'

If we have sown unto you Spiritual things, is it a great thing if We shall reap your carnal things?

If others be partakers of this power over you, are not We rather?
Never-the-less We have not used this power; but suffer all things, lest We should hinder the gospel of Christ.'

Do you not know that they which minister about Holy things live of the things of the Temple?
and they which wait at the Altar are partakers with the Altar?

Even so has The Lord ordained that they which preach the gospel should live of the gospel.

 

[Willie-T]

Ahhh, those 3:00am wake ups when you can't get back to sleep, your mind starts to wander, and you question whether or not God really does exist. I gave a sermon on that once and was amazed at the response: scores of people, including pillars of the church community, approached me, some with tears in their eyes, felt relieved knowing other people besides themselves have moments like that, and that God in His everlasting, glorious love, understands, and is forgiving. Amen.

I think I have more 3:00am questions that ask if I understand/understood certain things the way that God really/actually intended them.

 

[Tommy379]

After reading all these post, I forgot what the quote was about.
Back to the top I guess.

 

[oldethennew]

Tommy,

use all of your gifts, and you can't go wrong!

 

[preacher4truth]

Something interesting I read just this morning:

“Orthodoxy is idolatry if it means holding the 'correct opinions about God' - 'fundamentalism' is the most extreme and salient example of such idolatry - but not if it means holding faith in the right way, that is, not holding it at all but being held by God, in love and service. Theology is idolatry if it means what we say about God instead of letting ourselves be addressed by what God has to say to us. Faith is idolatrous if it is rigidly self-certain but not if it is softened in the waters of 'doubt'.”

IOW sound doctrine isn't important, my feelings and felt needs are what is important. Pure pragmatism all the while making truth relative, trivial, and subjective.

 

[Utah]

I think I have more 3:00am questions that ask if I understand/understood certain things the way that God really/actually intended them.

That's very profound. I like it.

 

[Willie-T]

IOW sound doctrine isn't important, my feelings and felt needs are what is important. Pure pragmatism all the while making truth relative, trivial, and subjective.

I'll give you this.... you probably read quickly........... but, obviously with very poor comprehension. Try reading it again. But, this time with ALL the words included, even the little two-letter words.

 

[Desertsrose]

IOW sound doctrine isn't important, my feelings and felt needs are what is important. Pure pragmatism all the while making truth relative, trivial, and subjective.

Hi preacher,
You'll notice the article takes a word and then describes what it isn't. I think the article would serve better to say what it is, and then show how man has taken the word and turned it into something it isn't.

Look at all the denominations that claim either orthodoxy or fundamentalism. And read their list of doctrines that differ like night and day. Some may truly be orthodox or fundamental while others veer off from orthodoxy or from being fundamental.

I'm not sure I agree with the explanation of Theology.

Maybe I misunderstand, maybe I'm dense, but as I see it, it's a study of God pertaining to faith, practice and experience. It is a study in what God has to say to us through His word. The word is alive, even if one approaches it without faith. Either way, it's a study of God's word as it pertains to who He is and His relationship with us.

And Faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen. Her 11:1

I can't agree with the quote that faith is softened in the waters of doubt. Does faith need to be softened by doubt? What does that mean? If we read the great faith chapter, I see men who lived by their faith - the assurance of things hoped for with the conviction of things not seen.

 

[Willie-T]

Hi preacher,
You'll notice the article takes a word and then describes what it isn't. I think the article would serve better to say what it is, and then show how man has taken the word and turned it into something it isn't.

Look at all the denominations that claim either orthodoxy or fundamentalism. And read their list of doctrines that differ like night and day. Some may truly be orthodox or fundamental while others veer off from orthodoxy or from being fundamental.

I'm not sure I agree with the explanation of Theology.

Maybe I misunderstand, maybe I'm dense, but as I see it, it's a study of God pertaining to faith, practice and experience. It is a study in what God has to say to us through His word. The word is alive, even if one approaches it without faith. Either way, it's a study of God's word as it pertains to who He is and His relationship with us.

And Faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen. Her 11:1

I can't agree with the quote that faith is softened in the waters of doubt. Does faith need to be softened by doubt? What does that mean? If we read the great faith chapter, I see men who lived by their faith - the assurance of things hoped for with the conviction of things not seen.

I think some people are getting a little antsy over the word "doubt". It's just 'questioning' your supposed assurance. Ya know..... like when Abraham 'doubted' God would protect him, and he asked his wife to lie and claim she was just his sister, so he wouldn't get killed because of a king wanting her?

 

[Willie-T]

I think some people are getting a little antsy over the word "doubt". It's just 'questioning' your supposed assurance. Ya know..... like when Abraham 'doubted' God would protect him, and he asked his wife to lie and claim she was just his sister, so he wouldn't get killed because of a king wanting her?

Not only did Abe do it twice (Gen 12 and 20, I believe, once with a king, and once with Pharaoh), but his boy Ike also did the same thing with his own wife a half dozen chapters later.

 

[Desertsrose]

Not only did Abe do it twice (Gen 12 and 20, I believe, once with a king, and once with Pharaoh), but his boy Ike also did the same thing with his own wife a half dozen chapters later.

But see, that's the thing! Faith doesn't need the softening of waters of doubt. They are separate issues. Apples/oranges, whatever. We walk by faith.

It doesn't mean that in our walk of faith our carnal weakness trips on a rock of doubt. I know I can fully trust God. In a moment of weakness, I might try to make something happen out of fear.

Like Abraham and Issac we may falter at moments in our walk of faith. But faith still means the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen. It doesn't need softening or hardening. It stands alone. It's what we have when we come to know Jesus.

This quote is like saying truth is softened by waters of falsehoods or it's not really truth. Who in the world are you quoting?