Israel

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Jan 8, 2009
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I think the Calvinist is a bit behind the times concerning how God actually draws people to himself. Jesus said that it is his death, burial and resurrection which draws all to himself:

Joh 12:32
And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, I will draw all to Myself.

This is an open invitation to whosover will come. So I think any arguments of God drawing a individual person must be understood in the wider context of Christ crucified. Every time the Gospel is preached it is God's drawing.

We should also understand that when God draws a person, it does not mean overrides their free will and forces them to come to him. It means He through his grace and love, makes it favourable for a person to choose Him. But the bible clearly says that rejection of this drawing, is entirely possible:

Rom 10:16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, "Lord, who has believed our report?"

Rom 10:21 But to Israel He says, "All day long I have stretched forth My hands to a disobeying and gainsaying people."

God does not change, and he hasn't changed the way in which he engages human kind.

In the old testament God said :
Deu 30:15 Behold! I have set before you today life and good, and death and evil,

And God does the same thing today with the Gospel. But there's nothing to suggest that man's free will is overridden or not included. The bible talks about not turning away ones heart:

Deu 30:17 But if you turn away your heart, so that you will not hear, but shall be drawn away and worship other gods and serve them,
Deu 30:18 I declare to you today that you shall surely perish; you shall not prolong your days on the land where you pass over Jordan to go to possess it.


 
C

calvina

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Phil36,can we know now who Israel is? honestly im giddy reading all the insights...pardon me
 

phil36

Senior Member
Feb 12, 2009
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Thats the question I asked?
 

phil36

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I think the Calvinist is a bit behind the times concerning how God actually draws people to himself. Jesus said that it is his death, burial and resurrection which draws all to himself:
Truth is timeless Mahogony,

And I whole heartedly affirm those verses you have given. prasie be our God and Father, Jesus His son, and the Holy Spirit, wonderful Scriptures :)
 
Jan 8, 2009
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I bet in the last 20 years I have read the nicene creed and recited it more than you have :)

Well Mahogony as they say 'Ignorance is bliss' you may have learned it and recited it, but you obviously have no idea why it came about and what it means. Thats why I am shocked to hear you say you have studied it for 20 years.. becuase you don't know what its intentions where :)

That is why it is pointless debating you
:)
So far you've only stated that I and others are wrong, offering no real arguments of your own to the contrary. That won't get you anywhere. What does the history of the Nicene creed have to do with Calvinism? I do know one thing - those who gave you the Nicene creed, were not Calvinists. Also if you knew enough about the Nicene creed, you would know that Calvin himself did not strictly believe in it concerning the nature of God. We're starting to see a few holes or contradictions in your theology friend. That's the danger in sticking too rigidly to one particular theologians view.


I would like to give you a bit of advice Mahogony, don't lean your learning on websites.. any fool can write what they want and how they want.

At least with Scholarly books they can be critiqued by their peers, even you could could make a web page and say what you want and even make it sound convincing!


This wasn't a fools website I quoted you. If you want to read the bio of the person who wrote it, here it is. I read he is an Anabaptist now.

David Bercot is a practicing attorney, author, and church historian. Outside of law, his special field of interest and study has been the early church (particularly the church prior to the Council of Nicaea, A. D. 325).

Bercot has authored several books:

Will the Theologians Please Sit Down
Plain Speaking
The Kingdom that Turned the World Upside Down
Let Me Die in Ireland
A Dictionary of Early Christian Beliefs

Common Sense
Will the Real Heretics Please Stand Up
In addition to his books, Bercot speaks frequently on the subject of early Christianity and radical Christian discipleship. He has recorded nearly seventy lectures on Christian topics, particularly on Christian history and what the early Christians believed. Most of David Bercot=s books and teaching CDs are purposefully provocative, challenging today=s Christians to return to the radical Christian discipleship and doctrinal teachings of the primitive church.


He certainly sounds more scholarly and authentic than our postings on this website. Often I find people who author scholarly books, also have their own websites, or have titbits of what they wrote on other websites :).



 
Jan 8, 2009
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ok phil you had the last word, truly, my postings were delayed. back to topic of israel. :D.
 

phil36

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Feb 12, 2009
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Phil36,can we know now who Israel is? honestly im giddy reading all the insights...pardon me

Hi calvina, Hopefully this will answer your question it is not my words, I doubt if I could express this as clearly, but I say this is truth.

The Bible teaches that God set out to bless the world through a single man. His name was Abram. It meant, “Father of high places,” because in his day people went to the nearest high place to try to get closer to their pagan gods. But his name was changed by God to reflect this promised blessing. His name was changed to Abraham, meaning “Father of a multitude.” Why was he called this? It was because of the promise that he would be the father, both physically and spiritually, of a great many people. And through him, the entire world would be blessed.



It was through Abraham that the nation of Israel came into being. And it was through Abraham that the Messiah came - born as a son of David. But this brought with it a problem. The problem was that not all of the Jews accepted Jesus as the Messiah.





PAUL’S PASSION



1 I am telling the truth in Christ, I am not lying, my conscience testifies with me in the Holy Spirit, 2 that I have great sorrow and unceasing grief in my heart.

3 For I could wish that I myself were accursed, separated from Christ for the sake of my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh, 4 who are Israelites, to whom belongs the adoption as sons, and the glory and the covenants and the giving of the Law and the temple service and the promises, 5 whose are the fathers, and from whom is the Christ according to the flesh, who is over all, God blessed forever. Amen. (Romans 9:1-5).



Paul’s antithesis is Jonah who desired to see those who had rejected the Lord come to an early judgment.

Paul was concerned about people. It was a part of what drove him in ministry. And there was something that filled his heart with sorrow and which brought him continuing grief. It was the fact that his own people — the Jews — had not come to faith in Jesus.



Paul was the apostle to the Gentiles. God had called him to take the gospel to the Goyim. And he did so. But he never stopped caring for his fellow Israelites. He never stopped trying to convince them of the truth of the gospel. He never stopped wishing for their conversion - even to the point of wishing that he could take their place, that he could be ****ed in their place.



In verses 4-5 he lists the blessing which have been awarded to the Jewish people.



1. They are Israelites (9:4).



This was a name originally given to Jacob. It wasn’t his original name. He had been given the name “Jacob” as a child. “Jacob” means “heel-grabber” — someone who is out too “trip you up.” Jacob had been like that. Always looking to make a deal — to trip up someone. But then he met the Lord. After an all-night wrestling match that mirrored his inner turmoil, Jacob was tripped up by the Lord. He was given a new name that night. A nickname. He was renamed Israel, meaning “Prince of God.” His descendants were forever after known by this name.



2. To them belongs the adoption as sons (9:4).



The Lord describes the nation of Israel in terms of being His son. Not merely His son, but His first-born son (Exodus 4:22).



3. To them have been given the glory and the covenants and the giving of the Law and the temple service (9:4).



It was the Jews who were witnesses of the glory of God. It was with them that the covenant was made. The Law of Moses was entrusted into their keeping. The temple services were to be found only in their land.



4. They are the Recipients of the Promises (9:4).



All of the prophets were Jewish. The promises of God had their name stamped upon them. They were both the objects and the recipients of the promises of God.



5. The fathers are their Fathers (9:5).



We read of the patriarchs - Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and we might identify with them to some degree. But the Jews were able to all the more for they were THEIR forefathers. They were family. The story of the Old Testament was THEIR story.



6. They are of the same kin as the Son (9:6).



Jesus was Jewish. His genes were Jewish genes. He grew up in a Jewish household and His earliest lessons were in a Jewish home and in a Jewish synagogue.





Paul’s attitude toward the Jews was one of love and concern. He has just finished teaching how there is nothing that can separate us from the love of God (8:39). But now he wishes that he were himself separated from that love rather than that the Jewish people would be separated from it.



This brings up a question. It is a question that deals with the main theme of the book of Romans. It is the question of the righteousness of God versus the unbelief of Israel.





THE QUESTION: HAS GOD’S WORD FAILED?



But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel (Romans 9:6).



In giving this statement, Paul presumes a question. It is the question which naturally arises when we look at the fact of Jewish unbelief. Here it is.



If Israel is God’s chosen people (and they are), and if not all of Israel have come to faith in Christ (and they haven’t), and if all who are chosen by God come to Christ (and they do), then why hasn’t Israel come to Christ?



The answer is not that there is some failure in God’s promises. The answer is to be found in the true identity of Israel.



It has been popular in recent years for Jewish rabbis to discuss the question of “who is a Jew?” Paul approaches the same question in this passage. Who is Israel?





THE ANSWER



To answer the question of who is Israel, Paul uses two historical figures from the past history of Israel.



Illustration of Isaac


Illustration of Jacob

Isaac was chosen instead of his older half-brother Ishmael


Jacob was chosen instead of his older twin Esau.



1. Not All Israel Is Israel.



But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel; 7 nor are they all children because they are Abraham’s descendants, but: “Through Isaac your descendants will be named.” (Romans 9:6-7).



The fact that “not all Israel is descended from Israel” is illustrated in the fact of Abraham’s two sons.



Abraham had been promised that he would have a son who would become a great nation. There were several problems with this promise.



Abraham and his wife were both well past the age where it was possible to bear children. The fires of their youth had long since gone out and there was no heat left in the furnace. The coals were stone cold dead.



Even when they had been younger, Sarah had been barren and unable to bear children.



Abraham and Sarah put their heads together and they came up with a plan to “help God.” The plan was named Hagar. Abraham lay with Hagar and had a son by her named Ishmael. But God had needed no help. And He said that Ishmael would not be the son of the promise. Sarah would have a son. Sarah chuckled over this, but God got the last laugh and when it was over, Sarah’s belly began to swell and she gave birth to Isaac - his name means “laughter.”



The point that Paul is making is that being the son of Abraham didn’t automatically connect you with God since Abraham had two sons and only one of them was of the chosen line. Although Ishmael was just as much a son of Abraham as was Isaac, although he was the firstborn, the promise and the inheritance was not given to him. This brings us to our next point.



2. Children of the Promise are the Only Legitimate Descendants.



That is, it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise are regarded as descendants.

For this is the word of promise: “At this time I will come, and Sarah shall have a son.”

And not only this, but there was Rebekah also, when she had conceived twins by one man, our father Isaac; 11 for though the twins were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad, so that God's purpose according to His choice would stand, not because of works but because of Him who calls, 12 it was said to her, “The older will serve the younger.”

Just as it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.” (Romans 9:8-13).



Abraham and Sarah are not the only examples of fleshly children who were not chosen by God. There is also the example of Jacob and Esau. They were twins. They had the same father and the same mother. They were born only minutes apart. They were born into the same household and had the same upbringing. But God chose one and not the other. Specifically, God chose the younger over the older.



This was contrary to popular custom. It was normally the older brother who was accorded the birthright and the blessing and the double portion and the leadership over the family. But God chose the younger. He chose Jacob over Esau.



It wasn’t that Jacob was nicer. He wasn’t. Jacob was actually a con artist. That is what his name meant. “Heel grabber” — one who trips you up when you aren’t looking. Jacob lived up to his name. He conned his brother out of his birthright. He tricked his father into giving him the family blessing. He swindled his father-in-law out of the family fortune.



Why did God choose Jacob? It wasn’t because he was better than Esau. Indeed, Paul says that Jacob was chosen before either of the twins was even born and before they ever had opportunity to do good or evil.



God’s choice had nothing to do with their goodness. It was made...



So that God's purpose according to His choice would stand.

Because of Him who calls.



Who is the real Israel? It is those whom God has chosen. It is those who have been chosen and called and who have come in faith and who have been justified and who will ultimately be glorified.



The following lessons are taught within this passage:



(1) Being a true Israelite is not synonymous with being a physical Israelite. Relationship with God does not come on the basis of who are your parents or of what church you are a member.



There were those in Israel who supposed that mere physical descent from the patriarchs assured one of entrance into the kingdom of God. John the Baptist rejected this (Matthew 3:9‑10), and so did Jesus (John 8:39).



The issue is not that of physical ancestry but rather SPIRITUAL ancestry. There is a spiritual seed going back all the way to the Garden - it is the seed of the woman which is over against the seed of the serpent. The latter leads to those who are descendants of Satan. The former are culminated in the One who is THE Seed - Jesus Christ.



To become a part of this spiritual seed requires a spiritual birth - a divine regeneration brought about through the ministry of the Holy Spirit.



(2) Those who are of the spiritual seed are those whom God has chosen. Receiving this election is not the results of one’s works but a gift given to those whom God has sovereignly chosen.



(3) This election is individual. Some seek to water down Paul’s words and the doctrine of election by suggesting that the election spoken of here and elsewhere is the election of a nation, a group, and not individuals. This is quite contrary to Paul’s teaching. In fact, the very concept of group election is the error Paul is trying to correct here. Many Israelites thought they were assured a place in the kingdom of God based solely on their physical descent as Israelites.



Paul’s examples, used to prove his point, are cases of individual election.



Isaac was chosen over Ishmael.

Jacob was chosen over Esau.

Moses was chosen to worship God.

Pharaoh was hardened.







Paul speaks of both sides of the coin. It was Isaac, not Ishmael (inferred). It was Jacob, not Esau. It was Moses, not Pharaoh. There are “vessels of wrath” and there are “vessels of mercy” (9:22‑23). The fate of the lost, as well as that of the saved, is first and foremost a decision made by our sovereign God.



Having said this, we must point out that the EMPHASIS of Biblical teaching is upon those whom God has chosen for salvation - and this should be our emphasis, too.



(5) Divine sovereignty does not exclude or reduce human responsibility. Paul does not start the epistle to the Romans with the doctrine of election. He begins instead showing that man is willingly rebellious against God. It is true that God has not chosen certain men. But it is also true that men have not chosen God.



(6) The sovereignty of God means God is in control.



All of God’s promises are based upon one fact: God is in control. If there is one message which permeates biblical prophecy, it is this: God is sovereign. The sovereignty of God is our assurance that He will do what He has promised. If God is not in control of everything, including man’s salvation, then God is not sovereign, and His promises are not certain.



The good news is that God IS sovereign. And He is able to keep all of His promises.
 
Jan 8, 2009
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Phil you should have given the website reference for what you posted:

WHO IS ISRAEL

Maybe you need a dose of your own advice? :) :

I would like to give you a bit of advice Mahogony, don't lean your learning on websites.. any fool can write what they want and how they want.



Now here is a website that explains the difficulties in the Reformed theologies view of Israel and the reasons for it:
Exactly what is Reformed theology?  -- John MacArthur


A more thorough website of resources to explain what Israel is and related questions can be found here:
Ariel Ministries: Downloads

Unlike the reformed website you posted, this author Dr Arnold Fruchtenbaum is an expert on Israelology and in my opinion the best I've found :
Arnold Fruchtenbaum - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 

WomanLovesTX

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Jan 1, 2010
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Maybe I'm missing something obvious here, but can you please clarify what eschatology has to do with who Israel is?
OK, I know I am really taking a stab at this, however my understanding is that eschatology is the end times. Tell me if that is not correct. Next, Not all who say they are Jews are descendants of Israel. If I remember correctly from past studies, Only the tribes of Judah and Benjamin and Levites called themselves Jew (of the Northern Kingdom?). Now this brings me to Revelations where twice John the Revalator recorded letters to two different churches and used the phrase " who say they are Jews and are not, but are a synagogue of Satan." Revelations 2:9 and 3:9.

As to who Israel is, it was stated well earlier that Jacob's name was changed to Israel and he had 12 sons. The 12 nations of Israel. When you get to Revelations, the tribe of Dan is not mentioned, however Joseph's two sons are, but Joseph is not named. The Bible tells us that we Gentiles can be grafted into the true olive branch and those that are the "chosen" ones (Israelites) can be broken off and cast off, unless of course they come to the realization that the true "chosen" are those who accept and believe on Christ.

One question: does anyone know who are these Jews that say they are Jew and are Not?
 
Jan 8, 2009
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the jews that say they are and are not, were a group of Jews in this particular place of Smyrna, who for some reason were very much opposed to the church. Their attitude and speech and actions showed they were not of the spirit of Judaism which Christ represented. So although they were Jewish in the ancestral or religious sense, their actions showed they were not truly followers of the religion they professed. These were the same folk Jesus encountered when he walked the earth, and told them that their father was really the devil. In Paul's travels, some jews were mild natured and were genuinely influenced by the Spirit of God, others were not.
 
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calvina

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i thank GOD for directing me to CC..im really blessed here.im enjoying Bible study here.GOD bless you guys
 
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miktre

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That's not true, actually.
Sorry charlie, its true.
You can't be under the old and new covenant at the same time.
This is a Christian perspective, if you are not a Christian then you are not qualified to say otherwise.
 
Apr 4, 2010
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You can't be under the old and new covenant at the same time.


Why not?

This is a Christian perspective, if you are not a Christian then you are not qualified to say otherwise.
In your world, maybe. But in my world, the real world, a person is qualified to speak on a subject if they know what they are talking about, regardless of their religious leanings :)
 
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miktre

Guest

Because the word of God says.
New wine cant be put in old skins.

In your world, maybe. But in my world, the real world, a person is qualified to speak on a subject if they know what they are talking about, regardless of their religious leanings :)
My world was created by the great I Am. You can look but you will not see. You can listen but you will not hear.
The Spirit reveals the truth in the word of God, hence if you believe Christ was not Lord and Savior then you are not qualified, I can show you the verses. Christianity is not religious leanings its reality.Christ is reality, bottom line.
 
Apr 4, 2010
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Because the word of God says.
New wine cant be put in old skins.
Fair enough. Judaism is not "old covenant" though. To say it is is to not understand what Judaism is :)
 
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miktre

Guest
Fair enough. Judaism is not "old covenant" though. To say it is is to not understand what Judaism is :)
I know Judaism isn't the old covenant but many like to believe it is. What it is, is a perverted version of the old covenant mixed with filthy Babylonianism.

 
Apr 4, 2010
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I know Judaism isn't the old covenant but many like to believe it is. What it is, is a perverted version of the old covenant mixed with filthy Babylonianism.

You're not Jewish, so you're not qualified to speak about what it is and is not ;)
 
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Co_IsaaC

Guest
who are the real mexicans?

not sarcasm, but why this question? or whats the point behind it?
 
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miktre

Guest
the jews that say they are and are not, were a group of Jews in this particular place of Smyrna, who for some reason were very much opposed to the church. Their attitude and speech and actions showed they were not of the spirit of Judaism which Christ represented. So although they were Jewish in the ancestral or religious sense, their actions showed they were not truly followers of the religion they professed. These were the same folk Jesus encountered when he walked the earth, and told them that their father was really the devil. In Paul's travels, some jews were mild natured and were genuinely influenced by the Spirit of God, others were not.
This makes no sense to say they "were a group". Revelations is the book of the Apocalypse, written for Christians in the last days. Revelations means to reveal, to let us know. Now the only two churches that God didn't have a charge against is Philadelphia and Smyrna. Now God didn't write a whole lot to each church and He doesn't waste words. Why would they be wasted on a such small group? They aren't about some mysterious small group, His teachings are about the world stage. Both churches He had no charge against mention the "jewish conspiracy"


REV 2(the entire message to Smyrna)
8And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write; These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive;
9I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.
10Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.
11He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.





REV 3(the entire message to Philadelphia)
7And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth;
8I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name.
9Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.
10Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.
11Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.
12Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.
13He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.
 
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miktre

Guest
You're not Jewish, so you're not qualified to speak about what it is and is not ;)
Sorry wrong again, Christ told us Christians to be wise as serpents and harmless as doves and Paul told us to expose evil which is what judism is.

What you won't find me doing is going on a jewish website and arguing who and who can't be a religious jew;)
 
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