Verse for "once saved always saved"?

[eternally-gratefull]

1 Timothy 1.18-20 completely backs up what happened to Charles Templeton and many more.

This command I entrust to you, Timothy, my son, in accordance with the prophecies previously made concerning you, that by them you fight the good fight, [SUP]19 [/SUP]keeping faith and a good conscience, which some have rejected and suffered shipwreck in regard to their faith. [SUP]20 [/SUP]Among these are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have handed over to Satan, so that they will be taught not to blaspheme.

We must keep context in 1 John 2.19, that is telling us that Gnostic false teachers who were discerned as false from the start went their own way. John was saying, hey folks!!!! we knew these guys to be false teachers, even while they were among us we knew they were false teachers and they finally left, because they never really followed the true gospel and when they finally left we knew why the left, because they were in obvious error and never did belong with us.

This passage as well as most of 1 John has zero to do with personal salvation and everything to do with discerning false teachers and those with a spirit of antichrist.

I again disagree,

You have God saving people, and giving them a gift he CALLS ETERNAL, and makes all these promises, saying they can break the seal of the spirit, That they can die, even though God said they will never die. That they can still be condemned, even though God said they would never be condemned. They that may still be delivered to him for judgment, even though God promised they would be raised by him personally to eternal life. They he would never leave or forsake them, although he will leave them if they do this (reject) etc etc....

John may have mentioned things about gnostic, But he was clear about who he was talking about in this passage, A person who claimed to be a part of the church, and who is now an antichrist, Who is an antichrist, In john mind,
[SUP]22 [/SUP]Who is a liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist who denies the Father and the Son. [SUP]23 [/SUP]Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father either; he who acknowledges the Son has the Father also.


Johns letters where written to encourage the church (you do not need to be taught, for you know all things' I tell you these things so you KNOW YOU HAVE ETERNAL LIFE and may continue to trust God.

These are not gnostic issues, These are things John thought were important.

In my view, if temptleton was saved, and then turned and denyd the father and the son, You have God giving a man eternal life KNOWING he would one day turn and reject him, and be the antichrist himself.

sorry, I can not buy that.

Templeton is either a saved prodigal child who went astray, or he was never saved period. There is no other option.

God does not make mistakes.

 

[eph610]

I again disagree,

You have God saving people, and giving them a gift he CALLS ETERNAL, and makes all these promises, saying they can break the seal of the spirit, That they can die, even though God said they will never die. That they can still be condemned, even though God said they would never be condemned. They that may still be delivered to him for judgment, even though God promised they would be raised by him personally to eternal life. They he would never leave or forsake them, although he will leave them if they do this (reject) etc etc....

John may have mentioned things about gnostic, But he was clear about who he was talking about in this passage, A person who claimed to be a part of the church, and who is now an antichrist, Who is an antichrist, In john mind,
[SUP]22 [/SUP]Who is a liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist who denies the Father and the Son. [SUP]23 [/SUP]Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father either; he who acknowledges the Son has the Father also.


Johns letters where written to encourage the church (you do not need to be taught, for you know all things' I tell you these things so you KNOW YOU HAVE ETERNAL LIFE and may continue to trust God.

These are not gnostic issues, These are things John thought were important.

In my view, if temptleton was saved, and then turned and denyd the father and the son, You have God giving a man eternal life KNOWING he would one day turn and reject him, and be the antichrist himself.

sorry, I can not buy that.

Templeton is either a saved prodigal child who went astray, or he was never saved period. There is no other option.

God does not make mistakes.

Fair enough EG. We agree to disagree but its not the end of dialogue on other things. Blessings brother!

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Fair enough EG. We agree to disagree but its not the end of dialogue on other things. Blessings brother!

we can do this because we both agree, they are not saved.

The difference is you think they lost it, I think they were never saved to begin with, the end result is the same, So for this reason, You are correct. Not worth arguing.

 

[Grandpa]

I do not believe we lose our salvation like a set of car keys and then find it again after looking for the lost car keys. He did not walk away from you because you failed to study the Word and pray one morning.

I do not believe in rigid OSAS/eternal security either, because that eradicates choice and suggests God has total domination over a persons will, which he does not.

I believe a person can be saved and through the course of time harden their hearts that they fall away from the faith and in doing so blaspheme the Holy Spirit. IOW, God is still there, but you walked away from God.

The story of Charles Templeton bears this out. It is well know that his walk with Christ was legendary, he was the Canadian version of Billy Graham and him and Graham were very close friends.

Templeton was tempted and led astray from his faith due to Theistic Evolutionists while he was enrolled at Princeton Theological Seminary. Late in his life he wrote a book: Farewell to God: My Reasons for Rejecting the Christian Faith.

In the book and his personal quotes Templeton stated that Creation as presented in the Bible was a fairy tale and the second he attributed creation at the hands of anything but God and the Holy Spirit, he was condemned eternally for Blaspheming the Holy Spirit[which is attributing his works to that of the Devil]

But you say, Templeton never said outright the devil created the earth, you would be right, but evolution at its core seeks to eradicate Jesus Christ. If you remove man being created from God, you remove the fall, if you remove the fall, you remove the need for Jesus Christ and you replace him with man's pride and knowledge.

So by embracing a doctrine of devils, Templeton walked away from his faith and his connection with God and will not be forgiven for the sin of blaspheming the Holy Spirit. Even the occultists know this and why any Christian that walks away from Jesus Christ and joins certain satanic groups must go through the rite of Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit.

But you say if he walked away from us , he was never really one of us....that dog won't hunt, because of the fruit that Templeton bore while serving Jesus Christ.

This is the most severe form of walking away from salvation. Those that abide in the vine abide for good. It takes a long time to walk away and then blaspheme the Holy Spirit.

This sounds like someone who knew salvation on an intellectual level. He could probably describe it and even convince others according to their intellect what salvation is.

And then his intellect was persuaded of something else. He changed his mind according to his philosophy.


Real Salvation is not about the intellect. It can involve the intellect but real Salvation is about the Power of God. Not the power of our minds and wills.

Jimbone has apparently experienced it. I don't think a person can know God, experience Him, and then later say no I don't know God. A person can say he doesn't feel as close or he wonders sometimes according to his intellect. He can think in his mind that he can walk away, but deep down he knows that he won't. So can he really? No. He can't. The Lords Love is too strong. Once felt, once known, there is nowhere else to go.


If you work out your salvation with fear and trembling, you find out that the Lord was saving you from very early in your life. Each step led to the other. Everything the enemy meant for your destruction the Lord ultimately turned it into good for you. God blessed this broken road....

 

[Talishi]

Context does not allow this. Paul is talking about the gentiles, where were grafted into a tree which was naturally jewish.. While the jews, (because of unbelief) were cut off.. And he wants us,, We should not be wise in our opinion. else we may be cut off, and they grafted back in. In which case they will, When all Israel is saved.

But in the meantime while they are cut off, individual Jews are not saved, are they? Or do you subscribe to John Hagee's theory that there are two separate but equal plans for salvation, one involving the Blood of Christ, and one involving the law?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

But in the meantime while they are cut off, individual Jews are not saved, are they? Or do you subscribe to John Hagee's theory that there are two separate but equal plans for salvation, one involving the Blood of Christ, and one involving the law?

What did paul say? they are blinded in part.

Does that not mean that some are saved, and some are not?

I believe there is one gospel. Been only one gospel since Gen 3: 15..

The law never saved anyone, jew or gentile.

Unsaved jews were not cut off. They were never saved.. The nation was cut off. Because of unbelief, and the gentiles were given the job of being Gods representative

But as paul said, When the time of the gentile is complete. All Isreal will be saved, They will once again represent God.. So us gentiles (as a group) should not be too proud. because just as they were cut off. we too can be cut off.

 

[Talishi]

So us gentiles (as a group) should not be too proud. because just as they were cut off. we too can be cut off.

Unfortunately, that position puts Jesus at risk of being a false prophet.

"I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it." -- Jesus, Matthew 16:18

 

[trofimus]

I am not sure if it is appropriate to still call european or post-european nations that accepted Christianity more than 2000 years ago like "gentiles".

And Jews, who are against God for 2000 years to be "elected".

I think the situation is quite different from the first century.

 

[Chester]

With a few works/faith debates raging, I thought it might be appropriate to ask again if anyone has discovered a verse in the Bible that clearly states that "once a person is saved, that they will always be saved"?

As before, please don't just throw a whole pile of verses at me, or make statements trying to intellectually prove OSAS.

What I want is just one verse that clearly states OSAS and then you can explain why you believe it teaches OSAS. Then I and others can respond.

 

[FlSnookman7]

[TABLE="class: bibleTable, width: 614"]
[TR]
[TD]hn 10:26[/TD]
[TD]But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]

[/TD]
[TD]

Jhn 10:27[/TD]
[TD]My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]

[/TD]
[TD]

Jhn 10:28[/TD]
[TD]And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]

[/TD]
[TD]

Jhn 10:29[/TD]
[TD]My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]

[/TD]
[TD]

Jhn 10:30[/TD]
[TD]I and my Father are one.[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
[TABLE="class: bibleTable, width: 614"]
[TR]
[TD]2Co 1:21[/TD]
[TD]Now he which stablisheth us with you in Christ, and hath anointed us, is God;[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]

[/TD]
[TD]

2Co 1:22[/TD]
[TD]Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]


There are 2 commonly used passages for osas, there are many more. To say we can lose salvation shows a lack of understanding of what happens when we are saved. The dead spirit we all inherited from adam is made alive and combined with the spirit of Jesus and that can never, ever be undone.

 

[Chester]

You have two verses, not one - but I can answer then both

I assume you mean John 10:28 teaches OSAS - It is interesting you have verse 27 there for the context - This clearly defines who the sheep are - they are those who are hearing and following Christ (both present tense in the Greek). True sheep will always have eternal life and will never perish and will not be plucked out of the Father's hand by any man.

But John 10:28 does not apply to the person who is not a sheep as defined in verse 27.

II Corinthians 1:21, 22 -- Beautiful powerful truth for the believer: God seals those who believe and gives them the down-payment of the Holy Spirit! Amen and amen!
- but I don't see this verse saying anything like that "once a person is saved they are always saved"

 

[FlSnookman7]

Again to say we can lose salvation shows a lack of understanding of what salvation actually is and what actually happens when we are saved. Believe God's Word or do not, that is your choice. For me I will have faith in what God has promised and who God says I am.

Also I find it sad that you can not accept that words like sealed mean what they say, have faith in what Jesus did on the cross and it will set you free!

 

[Rondonmon]

Despite years of Bible study and talking to many people, I have not yet had anyone show me a verse that clearly says "once saved, always saved?" Is there such a verse in the Bible, or is the doctrine of eternal security a conclusion from study of Scriptural themes and principles?

That comes from LOGIC......Take a football game, say Bama is beating Tenn. 31-0, if the lose 35-31 they were NEVER WINNING, but were always LOSING. It is seen as the same by the people that believe this way, if you were TRULY SAVED you can not go to hell, because if you go to hell you were NEVER SAVED.............The words in the football game and in the life and death situation are the same, they are action verbs, and technically they are right. BUT.....You can have Salvation and lose it....BUT.....You can never be saved then go to hell, else you were NEVER SAFE.

I know, its convoluted, but I am just giving their reasoning.

 

[Chester]

Again to say we can lose salvation shows a lack of understanding of what salvation actually is and what actually happens when we are saved. Believe God's Word or do not, that is your choice. For me I will have faith in what God has promised and who God says I am.

Also I find it sad that you can not accept that words like sealed mean what they say, have faith in what Jesus did on the cross and it will set you free!

I don't want to argue with your faith - I respect your position, though I disagree. I accept what words like sealed mean, but I do not intend to add to God's Word (that is my position).

 

[FreeNChrist]

I don't want to argue with your faith - I respect your position, though I disagree. I accept what words like sealed mean, but I do not intend to add to God's Word (that is my position).

But by changing "eternal" to mean "temporal" that is exactly what you do.

 

[Chester]

But by changing "eternal" to mean "temporal" that is exactly what you do.

Where did I in any way change "eternal" to "temporal"?

 

[JesusRules1]

Rom 11:19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.
Rom 11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
Rom 11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
Rom 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

as 5:19 Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him;
Jas 5:20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.

2Pe 2:20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
2Pe 2:21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
2Pe 2:22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

1Co 9:27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

Why the warnings.

 

[Depleted]

With a few works/faith debates raging, I thought it might be appropriate to ask again if anyone has discovered a verse in the Bible that clearly states that "once a person is saved, that they will always be saved"?

As before, please don't just throw a whole pile of verses at me, or make statements trying to intellectually prove OSAS.

What I want is just one verse that clearly states OSAS and then you can explain why you believe it teaches OSAS. Then I and others can respond.

Why? You ignored the last time, so why should I think something changed since then?

 

[dcontroversal]

Eph. 2:8 I have studied Greek and taught Greek for 20 years, and I have used Wuest's ideas on this verse many times: But I don't see the verse stating that "once a person is saved, it is impossible for them to lose their salvation"

If you have studied Greek you would understand a Aorist tense verb with a present continuing result from a past completed action........

 

[Chester]

If you have studied Greek you would understand a Aorist tense verb with a present continuing result from a past completed action........

Hmmm!!?? There is no aorist verb tense in Ephesians 2:8.