Tongues Again???

[notuptome]

I don't know you at all Roger. I accept what you say about receiving many infillings but I would call it anointings. That I can understand. What I mean that you can't understand is the language of Spirit since you are against it. You obviously don't have it. So how could you understand?

I have the scriptures. The Holy Spirit works through the scriptures. The Holy Spirit receives His instructions from the Father as He the Holy Spirit never speaks of His own things but those that the Father has given Him.

You are swept up in romantic fantasy about what being a Christian is all about. Without a good sound doctrinal foundation you will be swept to and fro by every wind of doctrine.

John 16: 7 ¶ Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;
10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;
11 Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.
12 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.
13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[notuptome]

VCO wants to promote his weird ideas, but when other people point out the error, he wants to 'agree to disagree'.

He hasn't presented any evidence for the idea that the speaking in tongues of the Corinthian church was a pagan practice from scripture itself. He's posted evidence for pagan temples, and that is supposed to be evidence for his theory?

Why do you impugn another mans integrity? You have never presented any scriptural evidence that what you do is what the apostles did in reference to tongues.

Ever notice that tongues are not mentioned in the second letter to the Corinthians?

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[stonesoffire]

I have the scriptures. The Holy Spirit works through the scriptures. The Holy Spirit receives His instructions from the Father as He the Holy Spirit never speaks of His own things but those that the Father has given Him.

You are swept up in romantic fantasy about what being a Christian is all about. Without a good sound doctrinal foundation you will be swept to and fro by every wind of doctrine.

John 16: 7 ¶ Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;
10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;
11 Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.
12 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.
13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

I see. Well thank you for your opinion.

 

[notuptome]

I see. Well thank you for your opinion.

Study the scripture for therein is the virtue.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[garee]

VCO wants to promote his weird ideas, but when other people point out the error, he wants to 'agree to disagree'.

He hasn't presented any evidence for the idea that the speaking in tongues of the Corinthian church was a pagan practice from scripture itself. He's posted evidence for pagan temples, and that is supposed to be evidence for his theory?

It was a sign for unbelievers. (no faith) Prophecy, the word of God for those who do have the faith of Christ of God.


You are simply making void the law. No such thing a a sign gift. The gift are spiritual words not seen called prophecy.

1Co 14:22 Wherefore tongues "are for a sign", not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.

It would seem that law is confusing you for some reason or other? Do you think it is subject to change?

 

[stonesoffire]

Study the scripture for therein is the virtue.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

A very good instruction Roger. Thanks.

 

[wolfwint]

How could the disciples receive the Spirit twice? Remember Jesus breathed on them before He ascended...receive ye my Holy Spirit? Then Pentecost so many days after? The Spirit of Christ is the understanding of His Cross, and is when we repent and turn to God. Without which none are of Him. He still told them to wait for the power.


Not all receive in two separate occasions. Acts records both events.

I'm not trying to offend anyone here. I'm just stating what I know, what I see in scripture, and what I received.

The Holy Spirit, came not before pentecost. And also Thomas was not under the disciples when Jesus breathed on them. Also there is no other event in the whole NT who is this taught. We know from the scripture that all important doctrines are clear to understand for the reader. According your argument the 10 disciples are the only believers in the NT which got the Holy Spirit two times. That makes no sense.

 

[wolfwint]

How could the disciples receive the Spirit twice? Remember Jesus breathed on them before He ascended...receive ye my Holy Spirit? Then Pentecost so many days after? The Spirit of Christ is the understanding of His Cross, and is when we repent and turn to God. Without which none are of Him. He still told them to wait for the power.


Not all receive in two separate occasions. Acts records both events.

I'm not trying to offend anyone here. I'm just stating what I know, what I see in scripture, and what I received.

And why then the first christians in churchhistorie who taught this were the pentecostals from 1900 / 1906 on?

 

[88]

That was a restoration of Holy Spirit/ Tongues ect.-------kinda like Martin Luther restored---being saved by faith-----it was always in the church---suppressed by "Sacraments" ect.-----When I studied Revivals with Finney, Wesley, Whitfield, ect----they all had manifestations of the Holy Spirit/Tongues in there meetings----sometimes this was edited out of some more conservative books about there lives----Wesley would warn people "get out those trees"---for when the Spirit came---they got knocked out by God's Power...Grace and Peace

 

[stonesoffire]

And why then the first christians in churchhistorie who taught this were the pentecostals from 1900 / 1906 on?

I got this from my own study wolf. I honestly can't say what the Pentecostals believe because just like any other church, there are things that individual churches divide over. Like water baptism and in Jesus name only, or in the name of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

 

[stonesoffire]

The Holy Spirit, came not before pentecost. And also Thomas was not under the disciples when Jesus breathed on them. Also there is no other event in the whole NT who is this taught. We know from the scripture that all important doctrines are clear to understand for the reader. According your argument the 10 disciples are the only believers in the NT which got the Holy Spirit two times. That makes no sense.

Joh 20:22　 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them,
Receive ye the Holy Ghost:

~
Act 1:4　 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which,saith he,ye have heard of me.　

Act 1:5　 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.　

Read Acts wolf and you will see for yourself the different ways Holy Spirit came on the first believers.



　

 

[presidente]

It was a sign for unbelievers. (no faith) Prophecy, the word of God for those who do have the faith of Christ of God.

To them that believe not, tongues are for a sign.
To the body of Christ, tongues are among the gifts given 'for the common good'.
The the individual who speaks in tongues, speaking in tongues edifies him.
To God, the one who blesses with the spirit gives thanks well.
To the congregation, tongues and interpretation edify the church.

You are simply making void the law. No such thing a a sign gift. The gift are spiritual words not seen called prophecy.

1Co 14:22 Wherefore tongues "are for a sign", not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.

You didn't respond to the specific points I made. Instead, you make this accusation, and again raise the straw man argument of 'no such thing as a sign gift.' I am not arguing about 'sign gifts' except to point to your straw man. Honestly, I don't know what your point is by by 'no such thing as a sign gift'.

That verse you quote wasn't just created floating out in space. There are verses before and after it. It's in a book, which is a part of the Bible. So you have to interpret it in context in relationship to other verses.

Does 'tongues is a sign to them that believe not' mean that believers cannot speak in tongues? Clearly that is the wrong interpretation since apostles and other believers spoke in tongues, and Paul said he spoke in tongues 'more than ye all' in this very passage.

Does 'tongues is a sign to them that believe not' mean that the only purpose of tongues is as a sign to them that believe not? Clearly not because 'divers tongues' are among the manifestations of the Spirit among individuals in the body given 'for the common good' in chapter 12. Earlier in this chapter, we see that tongues edifies the speaker (and Paul 'would that ye all spake with tongues') and with interpretation edifies the body ('except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying'.)

Let's look at the context.2
21 In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord.
22 Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.
23 If therefore the whole church be come together into one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those that are unlearned, or unbelievers, will they not say that ye are mad?

When unbelievers hear speaking in tongues and won't 'hear God', speaking in tongues is a sign to them. It is a fulfillment of the verse which says 'and yet for all that they will not hear Me'.

 

[VCO]

The Holy Spirit, came not before pentecost. And also Thomas was not under the disciples when Jesus breathed on them. Also there is no other event in the whole NT who is this taught. We know from the scripture that all important doctrines are clear to understand for the reader. According your argument the 10 disciples are the only believers in the NT which got the Holy Spirit two times. That makes no sense.

You had better reword that, to say, "The Holy Spirit did not come yet to permanently indwell true believers, prior to the Day of Pentecost."

Psalm 51:11-12 (HCSB)
[SUP]11 [/SUP] Do not banish me from Your presence or take Your Holy Spirit from me.
[SUP]12 [/SUP] Restore the joy of Your salvation to me, and give me a willing spirit.

1 Kings 18:12 (YLT)
[SUP]12 [/SUP] and it hath been, I go from thee, and the Spirit of Jehovah doth lift thee up, whither I know not, and I have come to declare to Ahab, and he doth not find thee, and he hath slain me; and thy servant is fearing Jehovah from my youth.

1 Chronicles 12:18 (HCSB)
[SUP]18 [/SUP] Then the Spirit took control of Amasai, chief of the Thirty, ⌊and he said⌋: ⌊We are⌋ yours, David, ⌊we are⌋ with you, son of Jesse! Peace, peace to you, and peace to him who helps you, for your God helps you. So David received them and made them leaders of his troops.

Nehemiah 9:20 (HCSB)
[SUP]20 [/SUP] You sent Your good Spirit to instruct them. You did not withhold Your manna from their mouths, and You gave them water for their thirst.

Psalm 104:30 (NKJV)
[SUP]30 [/SUP] You send forth Your Spirit, they are created; And You renew the face of the earth.

Isaiah 63:14 (RSV)
[SUP]14 [/SUP] Like cattle that go down into the valley, the Spirit of the LORD gave them rest. So thou didst lead thy people, to make for thyself a glorious name.

Mark 12:36 (NRSV)
[SUP]36 [/SUP] David himself, by the Holy Spirit, declared, 'The Lord said to my Lord, "Sit at my right hand, until I put your enemies under your feet." '

Luke 10:21 (HCSB)
[SUP]21 [/SUP] In that same hour He rejoiced in the Holy Spirit and said, “I praise You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because You have hidden these things from the wise and the learned and have revealed them to infants. Yes, Father, because this was Your good pleasure.

Matthew 1:20 (ASV)
[SUP]20 [/SUP] But when he thought on these things, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit.


Now there are a lot more verses that I could have used, but the point is, the Holy Spirit was very active on earth in the O.T. and during what became known as the Gospel period too. The difference, is He had not yet taken up permanent residence in the Hearts of Believers.

 

[presidente]

Jesus also wrote of sending the Comforter, the Spirit of truth. The Spirit was with them, but would be in them.

 

[VCO]

John 20:22　 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them,
Receive ye the Holy Ghost: . . .
　

Trying to be helpful, and not argumentative:

20:22 This is one of the most difficult verses in the entire Gospel. We read that Jesus breathed on the disciples and said, "Receive the Holy Spirit." The difficulty is that the Holy Spirit was not given until later, on the day of Pentecost. Yet how could the Lord speak these words without the event taking place immediately?

Several explanations have been offered:

(1) Some suggest that the Lord was simply making a promise of what they would receive on the day of Pentecost. This is hardly an adequate explanation.
(2) Some point out that what the Savior actually said was, "Receive Holy Spirit," rather than, "Receive the Holy Spirit." They conclude from this that the disciples did not receive the Holy Spirit in all His fullness at this time, but only some ministry of the Spirit, such as a greater knowledge of the truth, or power and guidance for their mission. They say that the disciples received a guarantee or a foretaste of the Holy Spirit.
(3) Others state that there was a full outpouring of the Holy Spirit upon the disciples at this time. This seems unlikely in view of such statements as Luke 24:49 and Acts 1:4, 5, 8, where the coming of the Holy Spirit was still spoken of as future.

It is clear from John 7:39 that the Spirit could not come in His fullness until Jesus was glorified, that is, until He had gone back to heaven.

Believer's Bible Commentary: A Thorough, Yet Easy-to-Read Bible Commentary That Turns Complicated Theology Into Practical Understanding.

 

[VCO]

Wow . . . talk about coming out of left field!!!! My response was ONLY to this: As for women in the church . . . . God chooses whom he will . . . I never said that there were not false teachers . . . and if they are "false" in their teaching then obviously they are not chosen by God, right?

No, I played Center Field when I was a kid.

 

[Chinekwu]

A lot of us will be surprised, even shocked when we get to Heaven concerning tongues and a whole other issues...
I know I'll be....
My advice- "whatever your stance on this issue,don't deny/downplay the ministry/the work of the Holy Spirit". And it's OK to not be absolutely certain concerning touchy, delicate subjects like TONGUES...it's really OK.
To each his own....but may grace be multiplied to us all.

 

[VCO]

That's not agreeing to disagree VCO...that's attacking and misinterpreting scripture.

How many times do I have to say it. You want to use your experience as your yardstick of truth, I do not Care what you all want to believe, that is between you and God. I post here to encourage the non-Charismatic believers, especially to show the younger ones that Our Beliefs are biblically supported. NO, it does not bother me that you think I am misinterpreting scripture. There was no personal attack in what I posted, only clarification of the facts surrounding what we honestly teach and believe. You however launched a very personal attack: You are actually uniting with Satan to oppress your brothers and sisters."

That really does not require a response from me; because the fruit you are manifesting, is very evident that it is not of the Holy Spirit.

Matthew 7:15-16 (NASB)
[SUP]15 [/SUP] "Beware of the false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves.
[SUP]16 [/SUP] "You will know them by their fruits. Grapes are not gathered from thorn bushes nor figs from thistles, are they?

 

[VCO]

Wow . . . talk about coming out of left field!!!! My response was ONLY to this: As for women in the church . . . . God chooses whom he will . . . I never said that there were not false teachers . . . and if they are "false" in their teaching then obviously they are not chosen by God, right?

We believe any woman in the Pulpit is a FALSE TEACHER. Disobedience is not a sign of being led by the Holy Spirit.

 

[stonesoffire]

Trying to be helpful, and not argumentative:

Thank you.