Did Christ do enough to save us?

[PeterJens]

In all by Biblical study I have never heard of one even suggesting that Christ did not do enough to save us. this is actually two topics in one title did Christ do enough to save us YES Bible 101 are we reqired to have faith in HIS work on the Cross yes faith is not what you do faith is what you have in Christ thus Christ did it all now you have to live a life that is unto the one that paid for it. what a joke

Christ did enough so that anyone who has faith in Him will be saved.

There is an argument that doing anything in response to Christs work is self righteousness
and evil, earning ones own salvation, justifying oneself before the Lord.

Salvation starts when we respond to Christs words, in faith and repentance. These are very
much actions, not something that just is part of the story.

Equally obedience and good works are fruit of the very act of being saved.

The one who does what is right is righteous, just as he is righteous.
1 John 3:7

Some are suggesting that doing right things is evil if not done inspired by
Christ, as if as believers we do right things from self (evil) or from the
Spirit (good)

This creates a moral concept of continual sinning or righteousness which is
not defined in scripture.

So I am bringing out our response and faith is part of salvation, we cannot subdivide
and exclude the relationship in the whole glorious communion of salvation and redemption.

 

[FreeNChrist]

Faith is but the empty hand that freely receives from God what God freely gives.

 

[Grandpa]

Christ did enough so that anyone who has faith in Him will be saved.

There is an argument that doing anything in response to Christs work is self righteousness
and evil, earning ones own salvation, justifying oneself before the Lord.

Salvation starts when we respond to Christs words, in faith and repentance. These are very
much actions, not something that just is part of the story.

Equally obedience and good works are fruit of the very act of being saved.

The one who does what is right is righteous, just as he is righteous.
1 John 3:7

Some are suggesting that doing right things is evil if not done inspired by
Christ, as if as believers we do right things from self (evil) or from the
Spirit (good)

This creates a moral concept of continual sinning or righteousness which is
not defined in scripture.

So I am bringing out our response and faith is part of salvation, we cannot subdivide
and exclude the relationship in the whole glorious communion of salvation and redemption.

This creates a bunch of confusion is what it does.

There is one that is good that is God. Not you. Not me. Just God. One.

There is one way of Salvation. That is by the work of God. Not by your work. Not by my work. Only Gods Work Saves.


So when you try to make a list of all the things you must do to be saved you are instantly wrong. You can try to do those things and still fail. You can think you are doing those things and still fail.

The only One that isn't going to fail is God. So you can either receive the things He is Giving, repentance obedience salvation, or you can keep trying to work for them. One is Victory the other is failure.

Legalism, in all its forms, will never be the gospel.

 

[Willie-T]

I finally read the stupidly titled OP. This is likely the sickest thing I have ever read on here.

 

[Grandpa]

I finally read the stupidly titled OP. This is likely the sickest thing I have ever read on here.

Its what all the legalists generally say. Its good that they bring it to the light so people can see it.

 

[dcontroversal]

This creates a bunch of confusion is what it does.

There is one that is good that is God. Not you. Not me. Just God. One.

There is one way of Salvation. That is by the work of God. Not by your work. Not by my work. Only Gods Work Saves.


So when you try to make a list of all the things you must do to be saved you are instantly wrong. You can try to do those things and still fail. You can think you are doing those things and still fail.

The only One that isn't going to fail is God. So you can either receive the things He is Giving, repentance obedience salvation, or you can keep trying to work for them. One is Victory the other is failure.

Legalism, in all its forms, will never be the gospel.

Exactly why Galatians chapter 1 and 3 were written.....A gospel of a DIFFERENT KIND, double cursed and no power to save....I.E> Saved by faith, but kept and maintained by works.......!

 

[dcontroversal]

I finally read the stupidly titled OP. This is likely the sickest thing I have ever read on here.

Those who know the truth concur.........to say that Jesus did not do enough is as blasphemous as it can be......

 

[preacher4truth]

'Did Christ do enough to save us? No!' - that's a ridiculous and blasphemous statement.

You didn't repent and you didn't exercise inherent ability to believe. Christ granted that to all of His.

Salvation is 100% of God, so either quit practicing Soli Hominis Gloria and Pars Hominis Gloria or actually believe in Christ. Anyone aiding or assisting anything in their salvation gospel (which is no gospel, Galatians 1:8ff) are in fact preaching a false gospel altogether.

Just like the Judaizers they are perpetually pointing to self while mocking others, telling them they have not 'done enough' which is saying the same lie as the OP; 'Christ didn't do enough'. That is what is happening in this thread by the OP and his proponents of a false gospel.

It is remarkable to behold that the Christ of God couldn't do it, but, we can (according to the OP). If someone stepped into our church with that heresy he or she would be cast out. Immediately. Or as Paul said 'cut off' (and yes, I know what that means).

 

[dcontroversal]

'Did Christ do enough to save us? No!' - that's a ridiculous and blasphemous statement.

You didn't repent and you didn't exercise inherent ability to believe. Christ granted that to all of His.

Salvation is 100% of God, so either quit practicing Soli Hominis Gloria and Pars Hominis Gloria or actually believe in Christ. Anyone aiding or assisting anything in their salvation gospel (which is no gospel, Galatians 1:8ff) are in fact preaching a false gospel altogether.

Just like the Judaizers they are perpetually pointing to self while mocking others, telling them they have not 'done enough' which is saying the same lie as the OP; 'Christ didn't do enough'. That is what is happening in this thread by the OP and his proponents of a false gospel.

It is remarkable to behold that the Christ of God couldn't do it, but, we can (according to the OP). If someone stepped into our church with that heresy he or she would be cast out. Immediately. Or as Paul said 'cut off' (and yes, I know what that means).

Amen and those who believe that farce will be cut off one day tragically as well.....as in....Depart from me......I never knew you!

Those who come before his throne bragging about ALL they have done in HIS NAME.......^ that is ^^^^

ME, I will come before his throne with my knees already cracked and bowing while pleading the blood, mercy, grace and promises of God based upon the work of Jesus.....!

 

[CS1]

Christ did enough so that anyone who has faith in Him will be saved.

There is an argument that doing anything in response to Christs work is self righteousness
and evil, earning ones own salvation, justifying oneself before the Lord.

Salvation starts when we respond to Christs words, in faith and repentance. These are very
much actions, not something that just is part of the story.

Equally obedience and good works are fruit of the very act of being saved.

The one who does what is right is righteous, just as he is righteous.
1 John 3:7

Some are suggesting that doing right things is evil if not done inspired by
Christ, as if as believers we do right things from self (evil) or from the
Spirit (good)

This creates a moral concept of continual sinning or righteousness which is
not defined in scripture.

So I am bringing out our response and faith is part of salvation, we cannot subdivide
and exclude the relationship in the whole glorious communion of salvation and redemption.

The suggestion that in anyway Christ work of salvation is not enough is not an area of Christ orthodoxy. In John Gospel 19:30 Jesus is quoted " When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he "said, It is finished:" and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.

this verb statement means "to bring to a close", "to finish", to end, passed

[FONT=arial, helvetica, sans serif] dead men do no work If you are not saved your works profit you nothing. The works a saved person does today is in the context of Obedience because one of authority has called you to do it. thinking that what you do gets you saved is wrong thinking . or what you do keeps you saved

the only thing we are to do is Follow Christ. in the context of following HIM we Obey, Love, work, pray, serve others, preach, etc...



[/FONT]

 

[PeterJens]

The suggestion that in anyway Christ work of salvation is not enough is not an area of Christ orthodoxy. In John Gospel 19:30 Jesus is quoted " When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he "said, Itis finished:" and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.

this verb statement means "to bring to a close", "to finish", to end, passed

dead men do no work If you are not saved your works profit you nothing. The works a saved person does today is in the context of Obedience because one of authority has called you to do it. thinking that what you do gets you saved is wrong thinking . or what you do keeps you saved

the only thing we are to do is Follow Christ. in the context of following HIM we Obey, Love, work, pray, serve others, preach, etc...

I am not sure what you are saying. Some suggest coming to faith is more like a calling,
a bringing of light to which we can but respond. The armenians emphasise the persuasion and
need for choice and free will. I have met people from both camps in the past.

It sounds like you believe we are saved and then we know how to walk.

Even if we are called and brought to new life without our choice, or we are given a choice
to which we respond without being born again we are not saved. And we are born again
separately from the act 2000 years ago of Christ dying.

So that is all I am pointing out. You must be born again is a pretty constant refrain of the
evangelical church to be saved, which comes after hearing the word, which needs to be
shared or preached.

Now this is not a "work" so much as a response, a realisation.

So I am not sure quite what you are saying, but God bless.

 

[dcontroversal]

I am not sure what you are saying. Some suggest coming to faith is more like a calling,
a bringing of light to which we can but respond. The armenians emphasise the persuasion and
need for choice and free will. I have met people from both camps in the past.

It sounds like you believe we are saved and then we know how to walk.

Even if we are called and brought to new life without our choice, or we are given a choice
to which we respond without being born again we are not saved. And we are born again
separately from the act 2000 years ago of Christ dying.

So that is all I am pointing out. You must be born again is a pretty constant refrain of the
evangelical church to be saved, which comes after hearing the word, which needs to be
shared or preached.

Now this is not a "work" so much as a response, a realisation.

So I am not sure quite what you are saying, but God bless.

He said what many have said...your premise is wrong....the WORK that Jesus did on our behalf is sufficient!

 

[Silverwings]

I am not sure what you are saying. Some suggest coming to faith is more like a calling,
a bringing of light to which we can but respond. The armenians emphasise the persuasion and
need for choice and free will. I have met people from both camps in the past.

It sounds like you believe we are saved and then we know how to walk.

Even if we are called and brought to new life without our choice, or we are given a choice
to which we respond without being born again we are not saved. And we are born again
separately from the act 2000 years ago of Christ dying.

So that is all I am pointing out. You must be born again is a pretty constant refrain of the
evangelical church to be saved, which comes after hearing the word, which needs to be
shared or preached.

Now this is not a "work" so much as a response, a realisation.

So I am not sure quite what you are saying, but God bless.

How can this be?

Even if we are called and brought to new life without our choice, or we are given a choice
to which we respond without being born again we are not saved.

It is not possible to be brought to new life without our choice, neither is it possible to respond without being born again.
Pure foolishness!!

 

[PeterJens]

He said what many have said...your premise is wrong....the WORK that Jesus did on our behalf is sufficient!

Taking your premise I have already shown that cannot be true.
We are not saved because Jesus died for us, but because he died for us and we believe in Him
and so are born again and saved.

Religious language wants always to put the focus on the most important thing, which Jesus is,
but without a response and us walking with Him it is all pointless and we are doomed to destruction.

Jesus Himself knew how critical our response is, and was deeply concerned for Peter after his
denial of Christ, that his faith would fail.

A simple analogy is a weather balloon. It takes a weather device high up in the atmosphere.
Without the balloon, it would not work, but without the device being taken the whole exercise would
be for no point. So which is most important? Both as a team achieve the objective, without one
the other fails.

Maybe this is religious language conditioning, but this is not a difficult concept to bridge.

I suppose the idea that the response is involved in forgiveness of sins, is the problem, as
if Jesus's sacrifice was not enough to bring forgiveness of sins and make it all possible.
Ofcourse Jesus's work was complete and sufficient to bring the possibility of the forgiveness
of sins for all, but it cannot be applied unless we step up.

I would hope this distinction is not too difficult to make, as we all share the same beliefs,
at least in this regard.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

This is a key question. Did Christ do enough to save us?
No.

We have to
1. Repent of our sins
2. Believe on the cross for the forgiveness of our sins
3. Follow Jesus
4. Obey Jesus's commands
5. Dwell in Gods word
6. Walk in the Spirit, in communion with God

Now you could add to this list or expand each item.

Some say Christ has done enough, and we need to do nothing but believe.

Jesus describes himself as the Shepherd.

I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep.
John 10:11

Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.
Matt 7:13-14

We are called to follow, to follow the road that leads to life.
If you are following, it takes effort and you are doing actual work.

Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy and my burden is light.
Matt 11:28-30

A yoke is about being alongside another and taking their road and learning how to
walk it.

All of the above implies Christ has laid the way to salvation, but we have to walk it
to follow, to put effort in, to choose, to make decisions and fight the good fight.

So it is hard to believe people who say they know scripture, yet claim they
need do nothing and Christ has done it all, it is just resting and reaping.

This is just heresy.

I DO understand what you are saying, peter, and I understand why you are saying it, but I think you have phrased it a bit unfortunately...

I think...your main objection is the idea that Jesus died so that I can live forever. This idea doesn't sit right with me either.
Jesus died so that I could approach God.
It doesn't end there.
In fact, that we would live forever was not Gods' goal. If that were the case, He could have just not guarded the way to the tree of life in the garden.

In fact, He closed off the way to the tree of life so we would not live forever in our fallen condition.

I think maybe your objection is...well, it's the phrase of "resting in His finished work." Like...I'm saved, that's all. But He is still working. He is working in me. And His work is to present to His Son a bride without spot or wrinkle. And the idea that there is no struggle against sin and that a war isn't being waged in my mind and heart just doesn't seem to fit with my experience.

But there is a change that comes in our walk which is very difficult to pinpoint and explain. The best I can say is that it's like...the difference between cranking a handle to pull water out of a well by a bucket versus turning on a faucet to get water. But in neither case do we make the water. We are obtaining the water, but never does our effort MAKE the water that keeps us alive.

Maybe someone who understands and has experienced this change will be able to explain it better than me.

I THINK that you have begun to experience this and can understand what I am trying to explain, because you said the other day that you were reading your bible and suddenly began to see so much that you had never seen before, even though you were reading the same words. So it's as if you were pulling up water by effort before but suddenly a tap turned on and you weren't striving as previously but it was just flowing out of a faucet without any labor on your part.

I don't know, you might not understand me and think I am crazy but I somehow think you will understand because I think you have experienced this...and so, this is not a time to go back to laboring for water and you need only to drink freely. It would be harmful to try to work as you did before because it would stop the flow of water. He has been pleased to stop your laboring and so you receive it with thanks. To begin laboring again with your mind rather than resting and receiving will stop the flow. The flow is what you were seeking.

Maybe someone else will be able to better explain why you must not labor right now.

 

[Ariel82]

John Wesley, the founder of the Methodist movement, described God’s grace as threefold:

prevenient grace
justifying grace
sanctifying grace

Prevenient Grace
Wesley understood grace as God’s active presence in our lives. This presence is not dependent on human actions or human response. It is a gift — a gift that is always available, but that can be refused.

God’s grace stirs up within us a desire to know God and empowers us to respond to God’s invitation to be in relationship with God. God’s grace enables us to discern differences between good and evil and makes it possible for us to choose good….

God takes the initiative in relating to humanity. We do not have to beg and plead for God’s love and grace. God actively seeks us!1

Justifying Grace
Paul wrote to the church in Corinth: “In Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them” (2 Corinthians 5:19). And in his letter to the Roman Christians, Paul wrote: “But God proves his love for us in that while we still were sinners Christ died for us” (Romans 5:8).

These verses demonstrate the justifying grace of God. They point to reconciliation, pardon, and restoration. Through the work of God in Christ our sins are forgiven, and our relationship with God is restored. According to John Wesley, founder of the Methodist movement, the image of God — which has been distorted by sin — is renewed within us through Christ’s death.

Again, this dimension of God’s grace is a gift. God’s grace alone brings us into relationship with God. There are no hoops through which we have to jump in order to please God and to be loved by God. God has acted in Jesus Christ. We need only to respond in faith.1

Conversion
This process of salvation involves a change in us that we call conversion. Conversion is a turning around, leaving one orientation for another. It may be sudden and dramatic, or gradual and cumulative. But in any case, it’s a new beginning. Following Jesus’ words to Nicodemus, “You must be born anew” (John 3:7 RSV), we speak of this conversion as rebirth, new life in Christ, or regeneration.

Following Paul and Luther, John Wesley called this process justification. Justification is what happens when Christians abandon all those vain attempts to justify themselves before God, to be seen as “just” in God’s eyes through religious and moral practices. It’s a time when God’s “justifying grace” is experienced and accepted, a time of pardon and forgiveness, of new peace and joy and love. Indeed, we’re justified by God’s grace through faith.

Justification is also a time of repentance — turning away from behaviors rooted in sin and toward actions that express God’s love. In this conversion we can expect to receive assurance of our present salvation through the Holy Spirit “bearing witness with our spirit that we are children of God” (Romans 8:16).2

Sanctifying Grace
Salvation is not a static, one-time event in our lives. It is the ongoing experience of God’s gracious presence transforming us into whom God intends us to be. John Wesley described this dimension of God’s grace as sanctification, or holiness.1

Through God’s sanctifying grace, we grow and mature in our ability to live as Jesus lived. As we pray, study the Scriptures, fast, worship, and share in fellowship with other Christians, we deepen our knowledge of and love for God. As we respond with compassion to human need and work for justice in our communities, we strengthen our capacity to love neighbor. Our inner thoughts and motives, as well as our outer actions and behavior, are aligned with God’s will and testify to our union with God. 1

We’re to press on, with God’s help, in the path of sanctification toward perfection. By perfection, Wesley did not mean that we would not make mistakes or have weaknesses. Rather, he understood it to be a continual process of being made perfect in our love of God and each other and of removing our desire to sin.3

Our Wesleyan Heritage | The United Methodist Church

 

[NotmebutHim]

Resting? What does it mean to enter into the rest of Christ? Did Christ actually do enough for us? Does this mean we do nothing?

I don't chafe at the term "our doing". We do participate in what God is doing in and through us.

What I would chafe at is the notion that we put "the doing" from ourselves by self-effort and not from the life of Christ in us. It's all a matter of where this "work originates" from - our flesh or from our inner man in Christ.

Outwardly they can look the same. I know that only God that looks on our heart can answer that question but it is subtle difference between works-based righteousness and faith-based righteousness.

Another term I use a lot that may throw some off is that I say we are to "rest" in the finished work of Christ. The word "rest" can bring the connotations that we do nothing which is not the truth. It's the exact opposite.

I won't speak for the others but as far as works go from a believer in Christ - here is what I believe when considering John Chapter 15 and the "works" of a believer.

Jesus is the Vine - we are the branches. The branch bears fruit..it does not produce it.

Without Him we can do nothing. We are to remain/abide/rest in the Lord - abide/remain/rest in the Lord and what He has done for us in His finished work. John 15

The life of the Vine supplies the "sap" needed for the bearing of fruit but it is His fruit that is produced in us.

Resting/remaining/abiding in the Lord is not a lazy passive existence. When we know that God has already provided everything we need and we access His wisdom, provision, strength by faith - we'll be governed by the Holy Spirit in a highly strategic and active life.

Resting/remaining/abiding in the Lord is not an inactive lifestyle. It's a Spirit-led lifestyle where we flow in good works ( His fruit bearing in us ) that God had planned for us all along.

Resting/remaining/abiding in the Lord is our obedience in action.

Resting/remaining/abiding in the Lord is our warfare.

Resting/remaining/abiding in the Lord is our faith in action.

Hebrews 4:10-11 (NASB)
[SUP]10 [/SUP] For the one who has entered His rest has himself also rested from his works, as God did from His.

[SUP]11 [/SUP] Therefore let us be diligent to enter that rest, so that no one will fall, through following the same example of disobedience.

There is a vast difference between "us" doing things and the Lord doing things through and in us.

We can do things in our own flesh like Abraham tried to fulfill the will of God by creating an Ishmael or wait for the Lord to work through us to produce the child of promise - Isaac. Galatians 4:22-24, 30

Psalm 127:1 (NASB)

Unless the LORD builds the house, They labor in vain who build it; Unless the LORD guards the city, The watchman keeps awake in vain.

Couldn't have said it better myself!

 

[Calmador]

This is a key question. Did Christ do enough to save us?
No.

We have to
1. Repent of our sins
2. Believe on the cross for the forgiveness of our sins
3. Follow Jesus
4. Obey Jesus's commands
5. Dwell in Gods word
6. Walk in the Spirit, in communion with God

Now you could add to this list or expand each item.

Some say Christ has done enough, and we need to do nothing but believe.

Jesus describes himself as the Shepherd.

I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep.
John 10:11

Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.
Matt 7:13-14

We are called to follow, to follow the road that leads to life.
If you are following, it takes effort and you are doing actual work.

Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy and my burden is light.
Matt 11:28-30

A yoke is about being alongside another and taking their road and learning how to
walk it.

All of the above implies Christ has laid the way to salvation, but we have to walk it
to follow, to put effort in, to choose, to make decisions and fight the good fight.

So it is hard to believe people who say they know scripture, yet claim they
need do nothing and Christ has done it all, it is just resting and reaping.

This is just heresy.

An analogy could help.

A man is in debt and owes one billion dollars. It's life or death. A billionaire out of his love gives the billion dollars. The man in debt accepts in faith. The man in debt is saved. Did the man in debt to anything? Not much in terms of being saved. Did the billionaire do any saving? Yes. He did all the saving.

Now to make the analogy complete... the spirit produces fruit. We obey because we love him. G-d doesn't just save but he makes us more and more in the likeness of G-d.

So, there's salvation which I described in the analogy and a by product of fruits from G-d's continuing of work in our lives.

 

[beta]

An analogy could help.

A man is in debt and owes one billion dollars. It's life or death. A billionaire out of his love gives the billion dollars. The man in debt accepts in faith. The man in debt is saved. Did the man in debt to anything? Not much in terms of being saved. Did the billionaire do any saving? Yes. He did all the saving.

Now to make the analogy complete... the spirit produces fruit. We obey because we love him. G-d doesn't just save but he makes us more and more in the likeness of G-d.

So, there's salvation which I described in the analogy and a by product of fruits from G-d's continuing of work in our lives.

This analogy does not seem complete to me. This debtors problem is only solved up to a point....as much as can be done to save his life.
But let's look at it a bit deeper---WHY did he owe such a vast sum ? there could be different reasons and unless he is made aware of his failings he is likely to make the same mistakes again....wouldn't you say ? This 'debtor needs to be educated and learn not to repeat his bad habits....for it is not likely that another 'billionair will come along to pay his debt a second time.
What did Jesus say to the woman caught in adultery ? Go - and sin no more.
Having our debt paid is not all there is to salvation but it gives us the ALL-IMPORTANT start without which we would not have a future...but WE must also DO our part - repent and change !

 

[PeterJens]

I DO understand what you are saying, peter, and I understand why you are saying it, but I think you have phrased it a bit unfortunately...

I am saved my sister, and I know what you are saying.
What I am putting into words is my life and my conversion as a teenager.

I am expressing a language of what is our final goal is.
To be like Christ.

What is our walk?
To walk in purity, holiness and love.

What is eternal life?
To follow Jesus.

Can the faith be summarised in a few sentences? No.
The whole of the new testament represents many aspects of the faith, and
each summary fails to capture it all, but shows a window.

On the word speaking to me. Take one phrase, dead works.

The letter to the hebrews uses it twice, so it is a mystery exactly what this means.
But working it through, self justification before God.

There are many other aspects one could think it means, and finally come to a conclusion.

Here are another selection of difficult phrases that cause differing views.

Be perfect like you heavenly father is perfect.
Everything not of faith is sin.
If you do not do that which is good to do, that is sin.
Hate your family.
Love everyone, do not love the world, is you sin you are of the devil.

Take any of these the wrong way, and one can be lost.
So I am exploring what is our response to God and how do we walk this gulf between
being a sinner and becoming like Christ.

And for me to say, we need to respond, is like anathema to some, and bread and butter to
others. This demonstrates the width of experience and understanding in the fellowship.

So I am no new convert, or struggling to know Christ, I am working through the theological
expression of the reality in my life.