Why Don’t We See Miracles Like the Apostles Did?

[notuptome]

what i am advocating is miracles happen all the time and Salvation is one. The Bible says : Ps 62:7
"In God is my salvation and my glory: the rock of my strength, and my refuge, is in God."

Ps 74:12 " For God is my King of old, working salvation in the midst of the earth."

in Jonah 2:9 the word salvation means "yĕshuw`ah"

IN the New Testamant "Saved " means sō'-zō in the Greek .

saved means to : save , make whole be healed and to save a suffering one (from perishing), i.e. one suffering from disease, to make well, heal, restore to health.
now look at the word

Miracle :

Old testament

Exd 7:9 When Pharaoh shall speak unto you, saying, Shew a miracle for you: then thou shalt say unto Aaron, Take thy rod, and cast itbefore Pharaoh, and it shall become a serpent.


" wonder (as a special display of God's power)

New testament

John 6:14
"Then those men, when they had seen the miracle that Jesus did, said, This is of a truth that prophet that should come into the world."

the word Miracle means :
a sign, mark, token of miracles and wonders by which God authenticates the men sent by him, or by which men prove that the cause they are pleading is God's.

In both the Old and NEW Testament the synopsis of healing, Miracle, and salvation are closely knitted.

So as I see in the Bible God is performing miracles , works, and wonders each day.

God is able to keep this world moving , the seas from over taking land, God is able to save delivery, and set free. HE our Lord is still calling , still saving, and still healing SOZO!!!

i am advocating the God I serve is the same God yesterday today and forever amen.

Is it more than just religious speak? There are a lot of religious people that say the same thing and quote the same verses but deny the deity of Christ and the necessity if His blood to provide forgiveness of sin.

Its more than healing its new life. Its going from dead in sin to alive in Christ. Nicodemus was a very religious man but he needed to be born again by the miracle of grace received through faith.

All of nature testifies to God being God but Jesus came to seek and to save that which was lost.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[shittim]

We are seeing them where there is faith. No one has the "power" in and of themselves, when the Holy Spirit
moves in a time and place through a believer we see His power made known.
If we spend our time posting and discussing about Him and not experiencing Him and inviting Him into our lives
and offering to be His hands and feet in this world wel miss experiencing Him. It isn't an outward form, Jesus Himself told us in these days "they will have an outward form of G-dliness but deny the power thereof", which is what we see
on this thread and in this world.

 

[presidente]

MattTooFor

The first grand observation that I've never seen rebutted...is the total absence of the Gift of Tongues in speaking other earthly languages. there should be hundreds if not thousands of Charismatic missionaries who have fanned out all over the globe and who have gone directly to various countries with an immediate ability to speak in all the foreign languages without making a stop at the language institute.

So basically, if a gift does not function the way you imagine it should function in your mind, then it doesn't exist. In Acts 2, God did have people present who understood the languages spoken in tongues. The passage does not say they were preaching the Gospel. Peter stood up and preached. There is no indication that he did this 'in tongues.' In I Corinthians 14, Paul says that if any man speak in tongues, no one understands him.

There is nothing in the Bible that indicates that an individual who speaks in tongues can make the tongue be in a particular language of his choosing. If that were the case, those speaking in tongues in Corinth could have been the same and would not have had to interpret the language.

On occasion, there are reports of people speaking in tongues in the language of listeners. There were a number of accounts of this from the Azusa Street revival. I spoke with a pastor's wife and missionary's daughter who heard a little old lady in a Chinese village speaking in English. She said it sounded like she repeating a Psalm. A Facebook friend with a theology degrees knows of two men who do not speak English who speak in tongues in English. One uses KJV English, he said.

God can empower people to do such things, but there is no indication that speaking in tongues was intended to bypass language learning on the mission field or as a means of directly evangelizing.

 

[fredoheaven]

if we talk about gift, it means that there is 2 sides: the one who gives and another who receive
God give this gift by grace of God, in Jesus Christ,
"in Jesus Christ" means:
1John 2:5
5 | but whoso keepeth his word, in him verily hath the love of God been perfected. Hereby we know that we are in him:
not anyone, but people keep the will of God, the word of God

While, I like your comment about the gift has it’s 2 sides of the ‘coin’ this has nothing to do miracles pointing to what the Apostles did. Sorry but the subject is Christ in here and not the Apostles doing a miracle signs. This actually proves none! Nonetheless, you are trying to tweak “"in Jesus Christ" means miracles which it did not say.

 

[fredoheaven]

the receiver is the church of God,
1Corinthians 1:2
2 | unto the church of God which is at Corinth, 'even' them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called 'to be' saints, with all that call upon the name of our Lord Jesus Christ in every place, their 'Lord' and ours:

Well for discussion sake, above verse further shows that this refers to the gift of eternal life, SALVATION so to speak. Notice the word “sanctified”, saints and those “who call upon the name of the Lord” just like what Apostle says in Romans 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

 

[fredoheaven]

the receiver is the church of God,
1Corinthians 1:2
2 | unto the church of God which is at Corinth, 'even' them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called 'to be' saints, with all that call upon the name of our Lord Jesus Christ in every place, their 'Lord' and ours:

and obviously, this "church of God" in Jesus Christ keeps the will of God, but not every church you find, so be careful:
1John 4:1
1 | Beloved, believe not every spirit, but prove the spirits, whether they are of God; because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

so why God give this to His church?
1Corinthians 1:7 - 8
7 | so that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the revelation of our Lord Jesus Christ;
8 | who shall also confirm you unto the end, 'that ye be' unreproveable in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.
to be unreproveable at the End,
so the time these Gift act is right now, the time we wait for the End, it's now

God have many gifts for His church, all mentioned in 1Cor 1:4-7, and the eternal life is among them and perhaps is the last,

Thank you for the wonderful verse and that’s one thing for sure what I am trying to emphasize in my other post that we are in the age of COUNTERFEIT, FAKE or falsification. It’s good reminder to those who desire glory and praise of false gift. Proverbs says:

Proverbs 26:14 Whoso boasteth himself of a false gift is like clouds and wind without rain.

Well, what particular gift is this Paul talking? Miracles? NO! As I said, it might fall into knowledge or utterance that is to prophesy or preach the Gospel which is the power of God unto salvation Romans 1:16:

“For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.”

Now I have no problem that God gifted His church but it seems you were all there flat wrong that gift of eternal life is “perhaps is the last”….umm YOU NEED to check your THEOLOGY first.

BTW, the church is composed of saved, baptized believers gathered in a certain locality mainly for worship and eddying of the body of Christ.

God bless you as you study more about the scriptures!

 

[JesusRules1]

Why Don’t We See Miracles Like the Apostles Did?

Are we not Spirit filled like they were or is it from lack of faith, prayer, or fasting?

I believe we experience some miracles but nothing like they did.

Luk 18:7 And shall not God avenge his own elect, which cry day and night unto him, though he bear long with them?
Luk 18:8 I tell you that he will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?

Mat 24:12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
Mat 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

2Ti 3:13 But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.

Ti 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
1Ti 4:2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;
1Ti 4:3 Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.
1Ti 4:4 For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving:
1Ti 4:5 For it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer.

2Ti 3:1 This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.
2Ti 3:2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,
2Ti 3:3 Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,
2Ti 3:4 Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
2Ti 3:5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
2Ti 3:6 For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts,
2Ti 3:7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

2Ti 4:2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.
2Ti 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
2Ti 4:4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

Jud 1:3 Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.
Jud 1:4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

1Ti 6:4 He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings,
1Ti 6:5 Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness(material,monetary): from such withdraw thyself.
1Ti 6:6 But godliness with contentment is great gain.
1Ti 6:7 For we brought nothing into this world, and it is certain we can carry nothing out.
1Ti 6:8 And having food and raiment let us be therewith content.
1Ti 6:9 But they that will be rich fall into temptation and a snare, and into many foolish and hurtful lusts, which drown men in destruction and perdition.
1Ti 6:10 For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.

Jas 5:16 Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.

Rev 3:15 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.
Rev 3:16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.
Rev 3:17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked.

Jud 1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.
Jud 1:8 Likewise also these filthy dreamers defile the flesh, despise dominion, and speak evil of dignities.

Jas 4:3 Ye ask, and receive not, because ye ask amiss, that ye may consume it upon your lusts.

Jud 1:17 But, beloved, remember ye the words which were spoken before of the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ;
Jud 1:18 How that they told you there should be mockers in the last time, who should walk after their own ungodly lusts.
Jud 1:19 These be they who separate themselves, sensual, having not the Spirit.

Mat 24:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
Mat 24:4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
Mat 24:5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

Co 6:3 Giving no offence in any thing, that the ministry be not blamed.

1Jn 3:17 But whoso hath this world's good, and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his bowels of compassion from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him?
1Jn 3:18 My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth.

1Jn 2:15 Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
1Jn 2:16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.

Pro 30:11 There is a generation that curseth their father, and doth not bless their mother.
Pro 30:12 There is a generation that are pure in their own eyes, and yet is not washed from their filthiness.
Pro 30:13 There is a generation, O how lofty are their eyes! and their eyelids are lifted up.
Pro 30:14 There is a generation, whose teeth are as swords, and their jaw teeth as knives, to devour the poor from off the earth, and the needy from among men.

It is a lot different today than back in the apostles time with people that claim the New Testament,and the world,so miracles will not occur like they did back then.

 

[MattTooFor]

I can understand your position and the real reason why some people reject it is as the Spirit wills as Paul says clearly is.....

I would have no idea what you just argued here. You say "some people reject it as the Spirit wills"?? I have no idea what that means. Maybe you could re-read my post? I already agreed with you that God is sovereign. But you are denying point-blank textual evidence...that Peter simply made a decision to implement his gift. Could God have prevented the healing? Sure. Who is arguing that? Not me.

If man can heal whenever he chooses then why doesn't he go into a hospital and heal everyone there?

Because the gift of healing was a 'sign gift' for the purpose of the Gospel getting its foot in the door. Over and over throughout the NT, the "gift of healing" was used specifically as a "sign" to convince and convert people to faith in the beginning days of the Christian era:

Acts 14:3 - "Therefore they spent a long time there speaking boldly with reliance upon the Lord, who was testifying to the word of His grace, granting that signs and wonders be done by their hands."

And yes, you're absolutely right - God sovereignly "granted" them that ability. But it is, as we see with Peter's "silver and gold have I none" miracle, a mysterious interworking of human choices and divine sovereignty.

Acts 9:34-35 - "Peter said to him, “Aeneas, Jesus Christ heals you. Get up and roll up your bed.” He got up at once. All the people who lived in Lydda and in the city of Sharon saw Aeneas and they turned to the Lord.

Again, we see in the passage above how a miracle of healing is performed and it becomes a "sign". A means by which people then "turned to the Lord". The people with these gifts realized this was not for the purpose of "emptying out hospitals"...but rather as a sign...for the purpose of converting people to the Lord.

This is not happening today. No one is being healed from a severed spinal cord or from life-long blindness or from death. It's just a simple common sense observation. My goodness.

Might there have occurred somewhere, at some time, in some tucked away corner of the world, a stupendous "early Christian era"-style miracle? Whether there has or not, there is certainly nothing happening tody in the Christian community that matches the worldwide uproar being caused in the early days...when Christian ministers were going all over the kingdom-come, healing people hand-over-fist.

it is not for nothing that the Bible issues this advisory: "having tasted...of the powers of [wait for it] the age to come" --Hebrews 6:5.

That's right - contrary to Charismatic doctrine, there are "powers" that are characteristic of one age but not of another. Furthermore, the statement of Hebrews 6:5 is saying that there are powers that are NOT characteristic of the age we live in...that is to say, the present Christian era which will be ended at the return of the King, at which time will commence the eternal, endless "age" of God and His kingdom.

So much for the Charismatic misapplication of the scripture "Jesus, the same today, yesterday and forever". That verse is referring to Jesus' character, not His methods of operation. The "method of operation for the beginning days of Christianity differ from His methods for today. People, in the early days (apparently) were given only a "taste" of the "powers of the age to come".

But you say I'm the one who may cause people to stumble. I would argue it is YOUR arguments that potentially cause sadness, a sense of defeat, and false guilt:

The explanation many Charismatic apologists (such as yourself) give in explaining the dearth of sign miracles (compared to what was apparently going on in the first years of the Christian era): We all lack faith. If we see no miracles, it is because we are "disbelievers". We are carnal. We are woefully ill-equipped to study the Word. We have not found favor with God..

The self-loathing and self-flagellation goes on and on and on among these poor, downtrodden Charismatics and Charismatic sympathizers.

If I had a dollar bill for every demoralized Charismatic-wannabe with whom I have had conversation...and who are despondent over the fact they can't match the tall tales of the blowhards who get up on the platform at their church and make false claims...such as "the Lord God Almighty appeared to me this morning in the bathroom while I was shaving...hallelujah, praise be...and and He spaketh to me and He sayeth a mystery unto me" etc...I would have a nice little nest egg.

The problem is there are these many honest Charismatics who won't make up phony miracle stories and phony "an angel appeared unto me" stories but they believe the blowhards...and they become defeated and demoralized because they are thinking "why doesn't God grace me with an amazing supernatural experience? Why doesn't God love me that much?"

I would argue YOUR position is the one that causes pain and suffering. People like you argue that miracles aren't happening in the lives of people like me (for example) because their faith is defective.

This is very ironic because...in the above cited passage of Acts 9:34-35...the people didn't even know the Gospel existed, much less did they have any "faith"! They were completely blindsided and blown away.

So...this common refrain among Charismatics...that you're not seeing miracles because you're a spiritual failure...is brutal and unjust. I know. I've been on the receiving of that when I was a more vulnerable younger man. I'm on the receiving end of it at this very moment, in this very discussion.

Then that would "prove" that here are no gifts of healings today which is complete nonsense.

Wait a minute. You've just imposed your doctrine. And at a minimum, you're mixing the issues. Absolutely, the Bible teaches that anyone who is "sick" should call for the elders to anoint with oil and pray over that person. If someone is "sick" and then healed through prayer, we could absolutely refer to that as a "miracle".

But if you're claiming there are those who can today replicate what Peter did in Acts 3...just walk up to someone with life-long paralysis and ZAP!...bring about instant total recovery...I would say that flies in the face of simple common sense observation of the world around us.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

I would have no idea what you just argued here. You say "some people reject it as the Spirit wills"?? I have no idea what that means. Maybe you could re-read my post? I already agreed with you that God is sovereign. But you are denying point-blank textual evidence...that Peter simply made a decision to implement his gift. Could God have prevented the healing? Sure. Who is arguing that? Not me.

Because the gift of healing was a 'sign gift' for the purpose of the Gospel getting its foot in the door. Over and over throughout the NT, the "gift of healing" was used specifically as a "sign" to convince and convert people to faith in the beginning days of the Christian era:

Acts 14:3 - "Therefore they spent a long time there speaking boldly with reliance upon the Lord, who was testifying to the word of His grace, granting that signs and wonders be done by their hands."

And yes, you're absolutely right - God sovereignly "granted" them that ability. But it is, as we see with Peter's "silver and gold have I none" miracle, a mysterious interworking of human choices and divine sovereignty.

Acts 9:34-35 - "Peter said to him, “Aeneas, Jesus Christ heals you. Get up and roll up your bed.” He got up at once. All the people who lived in Lydda and in the city of Sharon saw Aeneas and they turned to the Lord.

Again, we see in the passage above how a miracle of healing is performed and it becomes a "sign". A means by which people then "turned to the Lord". The people with these gifts realized this was not for the purpose of "emptying out hospitals"...but rather as a sign...for the purpose of converting people to the Lord.

This is not happening today. No one is being healed from a severed spinal cord or from life-long blindness or from death. It's just a simple common sense observation. My goodness.

Might there have occurred somewhere, at some time, in some tucked away corner of the world, a stupendous "early Christian era"-style miracle? Whether there has or not, there is certainly nothing happening tody in the Christian community that matches the worldwide uproar being caused in the early days...when Christian ministers were going all over the kingdom-come, healing people hand-over-fist.

it is not for nothing that the Bible issues this advisory: "having tasted...of the powers of [wait for it] the age to come" --Hebrews 6:5.

That's right - contrary to Charismatic doctrine, there are "powers" that are characteristic of one age but not of another. Furthermore, the statement of Hebrews 6:5 is saying that there are powers that are NOT characteristic of the age we live in...that is to say, the present Christian era which will be ended at the return of the King, at which time will commence the eternal, endless "age" of God and His kingdom.

So much for the Charismatic misapplication of the scripture "Jesus, the same today, yesterday and forever". That verse is referring to Jesus' character, not His methods of operation. The "method of operation for the beginning days of Christianity differ from His methods for today. People, in the early days (apparently) were given only a "taste" of the "powers of the age to come".

But you say I'm the one who may cause people to stumble. I would argue it is YOUR arguments that potentially cause sadness, a sense of defeat, and false guilt:

The explanation many Charismatic apologists (such as yourself) give in explaining the dearth of sign miracles (compared to what was apparently going on in the first years of the Christian era): We all lack faith. If we see no miracles, it is because we are "disbelievers". We are carnal. We are woefully ill-equipped to study the Word. God has not found favor with us.

The self-loathing and self-flagellation goes on and on and on among these poor, downtrodden Charismatics and Charismatic sympathizers.

If I had a dollar bill for every demoralized Charismatic-wannabe with whom I have had conversation...and who are despondent over the fact they can't match the tall tales of the blowhards who get up on the platform at their church and make false claims...such as "the Lord God Almighty appeared to me this morning in the bathroom while I was shaving...hallelujah, praise be...and and He spaketh to me and He sayeth a mystery unto me" etc...I would have a nice little nest egg.

The problem is there are these many honest Charismatics who won't make up phony miracle stories and phony "an angel appeared unto me" stories but they believe the blowhards...and they become defeated and demoralized because they are thinking "why doesn't God grace me with an amazing supernatural experience? Why doesn't God love me that much?"

I would argue YOUR position is the one that causes pain and suffering. People like you argue that miracles aren't happening in the lives of people like me (for example) because their faith is defective.

This is very ironic because...in the above cited passage of Acts 9:34-35...the people didn't even know the Gospel existed, much less did they have any "faith"! They were completely blindsided and blown away.

So...this common refrain among Charismatics...that you're not seeing miracles because you're a spiritual failure...is brutal and unjust. I know. I've been on the receiving of that when I was a more vulnerable younger man. I'm on the receiving end of it at this very moment, in this very discussion.

Wait a minute. You've just imposed your doctrine. And at a minimum, you're mixing the issues. Absolutely, the Bible teaches that anyone who is "sick" should call for the elders to anoint with oil and pray over that person. If someone is "sick" and then healed through prayer, we could absolutely refer to that as a "miracle".

But if you're claiming there are those who can today replicate what Peter did in Acts 3...just walk up to someone with life-long paralysis and ZAP!...bring about instant total recovery...I would say that flies in the face of simple common sense observation of the world around us.

I don't think it is a good idea to look at the world around us and deduce what God will do if we truly begin to believe ALL of His words and promises based on that world we see around us and what is happening in it.

 

[Grace777x70]

I don't think it is a good idea to look at the world around us and deduce what God will do if we truly begin to believe ALL of His words and promises based on that world we see around us and what is happening in it.

Amen...Paul says we look not at the things which are seen but at the things which are unseen. The law of faith speaks what is true and what it believes.

When God looked at the earth when He made it - He didn't say " Oh...so dark there - there is no light." No, He said "Let there be light." He spoke what He saw within Himself and believed - not what was in the physical looking at Him.

Unfortunately there have been people hurt by others with a mis-application of the law of faith and concerning the gifts of the Spirit but to throw the baby out with the dirty bath water is not wise and it is equally unwise to lay a stumbling stone in front of others to stop them from being open to be used by the Holy Spirit to show others the love and grace that our loving Father and Lord has for them.

Jesus is perfect theology. We see what He did. He represented the exact nature of the Father. Jesus is the same yesterday, today and forever and we are one with Him. He is joined as one spirit with us in our inner man of the heart - the new creation in Christ. He wants to make people well in all areas of their life.

 

[Galatea]

Why Don’t We See Miracles Like the Apostles Did?

Are we not Spirit filled like they were or is it from lack of faith, prayer, or fasting?

I believe we experience some miracles but nothing like they did.

I have read some of this thread, but not all of the posts. I think we have it all backwards. What is healing the body? I say it is hardly nothing for God to heal a physical body. Kindergarten level kind of a miracle. The REAL miracle is that God can take a dirty, Hell doomed and Hell deserving sinner and die for that sinner, and be raised again- justifying that sinner. There are many more amazing miracles today than what happened in the days of the Apostles. The miracle is that sinners can be turned into sons through faith in Christ.

After all, the physical body is temporal- but a person's soul is eternal.

My argument would be that we are seeing MORE miracles in the present age, because the Word of God is going out to the far corners of the Earth, and people are being saved.

 

[MattTooFor]

The passage does not say they were preaching the Gospel.

You need to re-read the passage:

Acts 2:8-11 -- "Parthians and Medes and Elamites, and residents of Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia, Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the districts of Libya around Cyrene, and visitors from Rome, both Jews and [m]proselytes, Cretans and Arabs—we hear them in our own tongues speaking of the mighty deeds of God.”

In I Corinthians 14, Paul says that if any man speak in tongues, no one understands him.

It also says elsewhere in the chapter that people do understand him...if there is an interpreter or it is understood by the person whose language is being spoken (v21 - "by the lips of strangers I will speak to this people")...so the argument seems a bit disingenuous. But however you want to interpret or misinterpret 1Cor. 14...the fact remains that at least one manifestation of "tongues-speaking" (the only legit manifestation, IMO) was the ability to speak in earthly languages for the purpose of spreading the Gospel. That is not happening today.

On occasion, there are reports of people speaking in tongues in the language of listeners. There were a number of accounts of this from the Azusa Street revival. I spoke with a pastor's wife.........

No, no, no. Please, no more fourth-hand reports, sixth-hand reports, twelfth-hand reports. Please have mercy on me, kind sir.

One can easily deduce from the writings of Paul...that "speaking in tongues" was a common phenomenon in those days. A common phenomenon. No need for twelfth-hand reports about something that happened 25 years ago. Ergo, something has changed since those days.

...there is no indication that speaking in tongues was intended to bypass language learning on the mission field or as a means of directly evangelizing.

Yes, there IS indication. Acts, chapter 2.

There is also biblically-based common sense and biblically-based surmising: The Apostle Paul hurled himself across the entire known world in the space of a couple of decades or so. There was a different language almost every ten miles. He needed to have that gift. And when he says repeatedly that he speaks more tongues than anyone...you put two and two together: He was able to...and needed to...cross all the language boundaries in those days. God was enabling a quick foothold for the Gospel in those early days.

With the point-blank scripture of Acts 2, Charismatics have no excuse for dismissing the non-existence of "tongues" today. Not to mention the amazing irony of them disbelieving in the miraculous. The miraculous ability to speak in other languages for the purpose of evangelization.

 

[MattTooFor]

I don't think it is a good idea to look at the world around us and deduce what God will do if we truly begin to believe ALL of His words and promises based on that world we see around us and what is happening in it.

Wait a minute. I'm not trying to "deduce what God WILL do". I'm just observing what God SEEMS to be doing or NOT doing. I'm not deducing anything.

And again, you seem to be bringing up this common, defeatist, Charismatic refrain...that those of us who don't see miracles, it is because our "faith" isn't big enough. Somehow, we're failing God. We just don't measure up. God is not sufficiently pleased with us. We are in a doghouse. We are in the ghetto of the Christian community. The blowhards who get up in front of the congregation every Sunday with their phony claims and their phony stories...THEY are the ones whom God favors. Not miserable rejects like you and me.

My, what a lovely philosophy.

 

[Joidevivre]

The only miracle I actually was present for was with my son when he was 12 and bit on the finger by a rattlesnake. The next day, his entire arm was swollen up to the shoulder and black. The doctor was warning me that he would most likely have to amputate it.

I went home, gathered a group of people and we prayed. But as we were praying, I felt this amazing peace fall over me. When I went to the hospital the next morning, the doctor and nurses were all standing over his bed. His arm was as normal as yours and mine. Not a sign of anything. And the doctor said "This is a miracle". The nurses were astounded. He also said that he could release him that day, but wanted to keep him another day to observe him.

It was way beyond the normal healing.

 

[Depleted]

I have read some of this thread, but not all of the posts. I think we have it all backwards. What is healing the body? I say it is hardly nothing for God to heal a physical body. Kindergarten level kind of a miracle. The REAL miracle is that God can take a dirty, Hell doomed and Hell deserving sinner and die for that sinner, and be raised again- justifying that sinner. There are many more amazing miracles today than what happened in the days of the Apostles. The miracle is that sinners can be turned into sons through faith in Christ.

After all, the physical body is temporal- but a person's soul is eternal.

My argument would be that we are seeing MORE miracles in the present age, because the Word of God is going out to the far corners of the Earth, and people are being saved.

Orrrr, that printing press, and then TV, and then the Internet really made it much easier to access miracles.

 

[presidente]

You need to re-read the passage:

Acts 2:8-11 -- "Parthians and Medes and Elamites, and residents of Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia, Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the districts of Libya around Cyrene, and visitors from Rome, both Jews and [m]proselytes, Cretans and Arabs—we hear them in our own tongues speaking of the mighty deeds of God.”

It also says elsewhere in the chapter that people do understand him...if there is an interpreter or it is understood by the person whose language is being spoken (v21 - "by the lips of strangers I will speak to this people")...so the argument seems a bit disingenuous.

You only wrote part of the verse. The verse continues 'and yet for all that, they will not hear Me'. And we see this in Acts 2 when some of those present heard speaking in tongues and accused the disciples of being drunk. In I Corinthians 14, Paul illustrates this principle by saying that if an unbeliever or unlearned comes in and all speak with tongues, will he not say that ye are mad. The way Paul explains this verse, it is not about unbelievers hearing tongues and believing because of the sign. Rather, the sign is fulfilled when they hear speaking in tongues and respond with unbelief.

But however you want to interpret or misinterpret 1Cor. 14...the fact remains that at least one manifestation of "tongues-speaking" (the only legit manifestation, IMO) was the ability to speak in earthly languages for the purpose of spreading the Gospel. That is not happening today.

In Acts 2, speaking in tongues drew attention, but people got saved through the preaching of the Gospel. God has chosen the preaching of the Gospel to save them that believe. We don't see any evidence of the disciples explaining that Jesus rose from the dead through speaking in tongues. Peter preached that. We don't see any evidence that they spoke in tongues to explain the Lordship of Christ, or His ascension, or crucifixion. The apostles preached these things in a known language. Tongues drew attention. It attracted scoffing and derision from some, and it drew interest from others.



Acts 2 does not support your case, not as far as actually explaining and preaching the Gospel is concerned. If the disciples who were speaking in tongues were actually preaching the Gospel and explaining about Christ, why did Peter have to stand up and preach. You could assert that they were preaching the Gospel, preaching Christ. But that would be an assertion. The text does not say that. They could have been saying the same kind of things we read in the Psalms.
Whatever the case, there was still a need for Peter to stand up and just preach to the crowd so that they might be saved.

With the point-blank scripture of Acts 2, Charismatics have no excuse for dismissing the non-existence of "tongues" today. Not to mention the amazing irony of them disbelieving in the miraculous. The miraculous ability to speak in other languages for the purpose of evangelization.

First of all, your premise is wrong, since people do at times speak in tongues in languages that other people understand.

Secondly, Acts 2 does not prove your case.

Yes, there IS indication. Acts, chapter 2. There is no evidence in scripture of anyone speaking in tongues and, 'in tongues' declaring that Jesus is Lord, that He died on the cross, and that He rose from the dead, and ascended on high. There is no evidence that anyone called anyone else to repentance 'in tongues.' After the disciples spoke of the wonderful works of God in tongues, there was still a need for preaching, what I call 'evangelization' per se.

Speaking in tongues drew the crowds attention. It drew interest from some. Others were scoffers, like the Isaiah prophecy says, 'And yet for all that they will not hear me.' Paul's explanation of tongues has to do with unbelievers responding to it with unbelief, which doesn't fit with the theory that it is for evangelization. Paul said, 'We persuade men.' We are trying to persuade men, not encourage unbelief.

There is also biblically-based common sense and biblically-based surmising: The Apostle Paul hurled himself across the entire known world in the space of a couple of decades or so. There was a different language almost every ten miles. He needed to have that gift.

Where do you get your cultural history on this? They may have had a lot of regional dialects, but I have read over and over again that Greek was a lingua france, especially in the eastern part of the empire where Paul spent most of his time. They spoke Greek in the synagogues outside of Israel, in the Greek areas and in Egypt. We have Greek epistles from Paul. We don't have thirty or forty languages. Have you never heard or read that Christ was born at the right time for the Gospel to spread, because of Greek as a lingua franca, the Roman roads built throughout the empire, and the pax Romana which enabled travel between countries?

And when he says repeatedly that he speaks more tongues than anyone.

Repeatedly? He said it once in scripture. That was in the context of I Corinthians 14 where he said if he prayed in a tongue, his understanding was unfruitful, and if one were to bless with the spirit, he gives thanks well, but the other is not edified. He was talking about speaking in tongues other people do not understand, not tongues that others would understand that he could use for evangelism.

Why did Peter stand up and preach in Acts 2 if speaking in tongues was to be directly used for evangelism for explaining the Gospel?

..you put two and two together: He was able to...and needed to...cross all the language boundaries in those days. God was enabling a quick foothold for the Gospel in those early days.

Common sense and allegedly putting two and two together can lead to some conclusions that contradict scripture. I've seen other people use the 'common sense' argument when their beliefs aren't supported by scripture.

 

[88]

Trump getting elected is a miracle...

 

[Awakened]

Thank you for all the comments!

I see that one reason was to get attention so they could speak about Jesus’s greater mission—to bring salvation to souls and prove that He had the power to forgive sins.

(Because they lived in a culture where the assumption was that sickness was a result of sin. Based on the same assumption, healing comes with forgiveness of sin.)


Luke 5:20
20And when he saw their faith, he said unto him, Man, thy sins are forgiven thee.
21 And the scribes and the Pharisees began to reason, saying, Who is this which speaketh blasphemies? Who can forgive sins, but God alone?
22 But when Jesus perceived their thoughts, he answering said unto them, What reason ye in your hearts?
23 Whether is easier, to say, Thy sins be forgiven thee; or to say, Rise up and walk?

 

[popeye]

[video=youtube;F55uFkMd420]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F55uFkMd420[/video]

 

[OneFaith]

Why Don’t We See Miracles Like the Apostles Did?

Are we not Spirit filled like they were or is it from lack of faith, prayer, or fasting?

I believe we experience some miracles but nothing like they did.

Its because they have ceased with the completion of the Bible, and the deaths of the apostle age. 1 Corinthians 13 talks about this. Now that we have the complete Word of God we no longer need prophets to tell us what God says, and therefore we no longer need miraculous miracles to identify that they are truly from God.

"For we know in part, and we prophesy in part, but when completion/perfection comes, what was incomplete/imperfect will disappear. But faith, hope, and love remain." In order for something to remain, it implies that something was taken away. What was taken away? Miraculous miracles. I know miracles are miraculous, but I say it that way because we still have faith "The prayer of a righteous man (or woman) does much good." Unexplainable things do happen- someone gets healed of cancer unexplainably, for example. But you will not find walking on water, controlling the weather for a long time, raising the dead, the blind or crippled instantly healed.

Miracles had a purpose, and that purpose has been fulfilled- it identified the prophets, the Christ, Christ's apostles, and the apostle age till the completion of God's Word to us. Jesus did not come here to feed everyone multiplying bread, or to be the most famous doctor on earth. He wants us to have problems- to test our faith and whether or not we respond with love. But how could we believe He is Who He says He is unless He can do things we cannot? - miracles and prophesy identified Him.