What causes God to hide his face?

[BeyondET]

I think He was facing something much more awful than just physical death. And He was doing so AFTER emptying Himself of His divinity and having to trust solely on Gods' Spirit just as we have to. I don't think we can, or ever will, fully understand what exactly it was that was greater than just a physical death because we would have to experience it to fully understand, but we never WILL experience it because He died so we WON'T. He experienced whatever this feels like to be completely abandoned by God so that WE won't have to experience it. The demons know it is coming and they are terrified. The words used to describe being abandoned by God are: to be thrown into the outer darkness. To be completely severed from Him with no way to ever get back to Him. I have imagined going to space and walking on the moon and then having your tether break as has been portrayed in some movies and the terror of floating away into nothingness and knowing you will never get back. You will float there forever, no light, no sound, no joy, no connection to anyone or anything ever again. The demons begged and pleaded to be cast into the bodies of pigs rather than be cast there. They are terrified beyond all words.

Look up the meaning of forsaken in Aramaic and Hebrew hopefully this can shed some light on your view of adandonment. For the word can be used in multible different ways depending on the context. IMO what Jesus said on the cross has nothing to do with abandonment but of why the brutality. As another poster had mention to many times people can't seem to look at him without placing a suit and tie over his scars of being human. Not saying you are doing that at all by no means please. But to say He didn't sweat over the thought of the brutality to come, IMO is ignoring his human side his understanding of human emotions and reactions.

There are many words that are mistranslated take the word camel which can be used in Greek two different ways one being a literal camel or the other being of a large rope which in those days was made from camel hairs in those regions..

 

[Grace777x70]

It's interesting. We learned in some of my college classes that there are different kinds of learners. I don't remember all the categories, but we were made to take a test to figure which one we were or what combination of learner we were. Then the teacher presented information in all the different ways so no learner would be hindered. But it was up to the learner to choose which way the teacher offered the info to grasp it.

The categories were something like...reader, hearer, visual, tactile, etc. The teachers job was to offer the information in all these ways so that no one was left behind.

There was reading of the concepts offered.
There was something like a chart or graph (NOT my learning and comprehending style AT ALL)
There was a taped recording for those who couldn't grasp by reading as easily as by hearing.
There were physical models for the tactile learner to manipulate and look at.
And so on.

It was the teachers job to present in all the ways. And it was the learners job to avail himself of the ways that worked best for their comprehension.

It's very interesting...

I agree....that is a great analogy. We need complete reliance on the Holy Spirit within us in order to give out at the time what is needed to those whom the words are meant for by Him.

At any given time there are 10x times the amount of people reading these threads as there are ones participating so new people are constantly reading things here.

I tend to think that the closer we use actual biblical terms - the better off we are. What I mean by "biblical term" - I will give an example.

The term "sinful nature" is not a biblical/scriptural term within itself. It is a man-made term that some have used to describe something that they think they see in the bible. The scriptures never use that term. One translation of the bible - NIV ( before they fixed it in a later edition and took the term sinful nature out ) translated the Greek word "sarx" which is "flesh" as the "sinful nature."

The term "sinful nature" can mean different things to different people depending on our religious teachings and traditions.

To me - it is important to use sound words in order to convey what is being said and the use of a man-made term with it's various connotations can skew the meaning of things in the minds of the hearers.

The scriptures only have the "divine nature" as a term that is used of the believer.

Anyway - your analogy of the different methods of teaching is interesting and I'm sure the Holy Spirit has many other modes of operation up His sleeve too.

This same process can be used to understand this "hiding of God from us" and what does this term really mean in the light of the New Covenant.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

Look up the meaning of forsaken in Aramaic and Hebrew hopefully this can shed some light on your view of adandonment. For the word can be used in multible different ways depending on the context. IMO what Jesus said on the cross has nothing to do with abandonment but of why the brutality. As another poster had mention to many times people can't seem to look at him without placing a suit and tie over his scars of being human. Not saying you are doing that at all by no means please. But to say He didn't sweat over the thought of the brutality to come, IMO is ignoring his human side his understanding of human emotions and reactions.

There are many words that are mistranslated take the word camel which can be used in Greek two different ways one being a literal camel or the other being of a large rope which in those days was made from camel hairs in those regions..

I will see if I can find a way to look it up in aramaic.
I don't think His cross had nothing to do physical pain, in fact, I said I believe He faced it all just as a human has to face everything by the Spirit because He emptied Himself to BE human. I am not negating physical pain, just saying I believe He faced ALSO something even worse than physical pain.

As to Him asking "why the brutality" I don't think this was His question. I think He fully understood why the brutality. He understood and endured it BECAUSE He understood the why. But at the moment of abandonment, He didn't understand anything because there is no light or understanding except by Gods' Spirit and any previous knowledge you had by His Spirit would completely disappear if He abandoned you. I don't negate the fact of His cross bringing Him physical pain by saying He experienced something even greater.

 

[BeyondET]

I will see if I can find a way to look it up in aramaic.
I don't think His cross had nothing to do physical pain, in fact, I said I believe He faced it all just as a human has to face everything by the Spirit because He emptied Himself to BE human. I am not negating physical pain, just saying I believe He faced ALSO something even worse than physical pain.

As to Him asking "why the brutality" I don't think this was His question. I think He fully understood why the brutality. He understood and endured it BECAUSE He understood the why. But at the moment of abandonment, He didn't understand anything because there is no light or understanding except by Gods' Spirit and any previous knowledge you had by His Spirit would completely disappear if He abandoned you. I don't negate the fact of His cross bringing Him physical pain by saying He experienced something even greater.

I've just spent some time looking at more info into this and have found that the word might even have meant "to spare" than to "allow" but I feel as it didn't mean to forsake or to abandoned...

[video=youtube;z-C8nsE_lg8]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z-C8nsE_lg8[/video]

 

[Magenta]

Here are a few verses showing God's wrath falls on people due to their sin.
They are from the KJV; there are more in the NIV.

2 Chronicles 28:13
And said unto them, Ye shall not bring in the captives hither: for whereas we have offended against the Lord already, ye intend to add more to our sins and to our trespass: for our trespass is great, and there is fierce wrath against Israel.

Isaiah 13:9
Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners therefore out of it.

1 Thessalonians 2:16
Forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they might be saved, to fill up their sins alway: for the wrath is come upon them to the uttermost.

 

[Willie-T]

Noted but it is sometimes useful to discuss what are in those books via forums and bible study groups.

Not all that often. If someone took 40,000 words to express something in a book, the 60 or 70 words we use here in a typical post, usually ends up pretty inadequate for getting a comprehensive point across. (This post was 37 words long.)

 

[garee]

Wait wait wait...

Jesus is God. Jesus is man. = God was a man when He walked the earth as Jesus.

Are do you not believe that garee?

The Son of man, was a man.(flesh and blood) The Son of God, as the Spirit of Christ remains without mother or father beginning of days or end of Spirit life. he is consider Emmanuel (God with us) not God is one of us.

Job 9:32 For he is not a man, as I am, that I should answer him, and we should come together in judgment.
Job 9:33 Neither is there any daysman betwixt us, that might lay his hand upon us both

I believe Christ, the Holy Spirit of God who again is not a man as us put on sinful flesh as a "demonstration" of the work of God, as the lamb slain from the foundation.(6 days) the actual work.

Joel 2:29 And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit.

Literal blood represents the spirit essence of spirit life.

God cannot be a man and is why Christ said His flesh and blood profits for nothing .(flesh and blood cannot enter the kingdom of God).A person cannot visually see the pouring out of His Spirit.Just as he promised a one time demonstration using that seen (the temporal) was needed. to put away sin in the flesh

 

[Rondonmon]

What causes God to hide His face from us?

Is it when we sin or break His laws? Is it when we turn our face from Him and seek after the temptations of this world? Is it when we hold onto anger and bitterness and refuse to forgive others?

What are the causes?

What are the results?

And is it a bad thing if it cause death of the flesh and a renewal by the Holy Spirit?

Psalm 104
You hide Your face, they are troubled;
You take away their breath,
they die and return to their dust.

You send forth Your Spirit, they are created;
And You renew the face of the earth.

May the glory of the Lord endure forever; May the Lord rejoice in His works.

Sin.....................this is stated over and over throughout the bible.

 

[FreeNChrist]

Sin.....................this is stated over and over throughout the bible.

Thank God for the Cross, eh?

"All this is from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation:that God was reconciling the world to Himself in Christ, not counting people’s sins against them. And He has committed to us the message of reconciliation." 2 Cor. 5:18-19

 

[BeyondET]

Thank God for the Cross, eh?

"All this is from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation:that God was reconciling the world to Himself in Christ, not counting people’s sins against them. And He has committed to us the message of reconciliation." 2 Cor. 5:18-19

Yes thank God for the tee post...

 

[Grace777x70]

Here are a few verses showing God's wrath falls on people due to their sin.
They are from the KJV; there are more in the NIV.

2 Chronicles 28:13
And said unto them, Ye shall not bring in the captives hither: for whereas we have offended against the Lord already, ye intend to add more to our sins and to our trespass: for our trespass is great, and there is fierce wrath against Israel.

Isaiah 13:9
Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners therefore out of it.

1 Thessalonians 2:16
Forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they might be saved, to fill up their sins alway: for the wrath is come upon them to the uttermost.

Yes...only being in Christ does the wrath of God not affect us when He comes into contact with sin. The love of God burns hot on sin and if we are not in Christ - it will burn those too. The wrath of God is the love of God in manifestation.

John 3:36 (KJV)
[SUP]36 [/SUP] He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Romans 5:9 (NASB)
[SUP]9 [/SUP] Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him.

1 Thessalonians 5:9 (KJV)
[SUP]9 [/SUP] For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

 

[Magenta]

Thank you, Bruce. It does seem to be the Scriptural message in a nutshell: accept the propitiatory sacrifice of Jesus Christ upon the cross on your behalf, that you may be born again of the Spirit of God, for then you are found in Him at the end of the age, when all comes to judgement; at that time, anything not found in Him is removed from the equation of creation. The message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing. The person who refuses to lay aside their pride of life in opposing the supremacy, sovereignty, and righteousness of God has their name removed from the Lamb's book of life, as they shall pass into the second death. God desires that all be saved.

 

[lastofall]

"Behold, the LORD'S hand is not shortened, that it cannot save; neither his ear heavy, that it cannot hear: But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear." (Isaiah 59:1-2)

on the other side...

"Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God." (Matthew 5:8)

 

[G00WZ]

What causes God to hide His face from us?

Is it when we sin or break His laws? Is it when we turn our face from Him and seek after the temptations of this world? Is it when we hold onto anger and bitterness and refuse to forgive others?

What are the causes?

What are the results?

And is it a bad thing if it cause death of the flesh and a renewal by the Holy Spirit?

Psalm 104
You hide Your face, they are troubled;
You take away their breath,
they die and return to their dust.

You send forth Your Spirit, they are created;
And You renew the face of the earth.

May the glory of the Lord endure forever; May the Lord rejoice in His works.

God doesn't hide his face, we turn away, usually not on purpose.. it may be being distracted with the world (carnality)... listening to the wrong teachings, mistrust, lack of identity in Christ by not seeing yourself the way God sees you. It's pretty much anything that gets in the way.

 

[Desertsrose]

One of the things I love to do is take one point, and try to understand and settle that point. We hardly ever do that on this forum. We seem to revel in trying to comprehend the whole Bible in a few posts. It seems impatience will not permit us to methodically and seriously work through much of anything. I have offered reading material to several people, and the usual answer seems to be that they do not want to take a week to read a book, then, perhaps, read it (or accompanying things) again, two or three times.

I honestly feel that most of us want the world's answers in 140 characters, or less. This will never happen.... consequently, we will never get those answers, and three or four years from now we will be batting back and forth yet another post on this same subject. Still getting nowhere, and finding no answers.

Hi Willie,

I would agree that we as a society want instant everything and its crept it way into the churches.

However, I/we don't need a 40,000 word book either to understand a biblical concept. We need hours of sitting before the feet of Jesus through His word and the study of it.

And that's not to say a book doesn't help because it does or it can. I also have read various books and commentaries. And some are quite helpful, while others weren't much help at all or were worthy of the trash bin.

What I would say is that what I have found that is more valuable than anything is for us to get into God's word and study it. Read it all and ask the Holy Spirit to lead and guide us into all truth. And make sure we also have a good teacher in the process.

God has placed teachers within the body of Christ also, so as we come together we hear the word and have it explained to us. I do believe churches don't completely do the job that God has sent them out to do. We're weak on discipleship.

Jesus spent 3 years with the apostles, discipling them and they still didn't have the complete understanding until the Holy Spirit came upon them and once that happened, they moved out in power, in wisdom and in knowledge. All that Jesus taught them came to their minds in power and in truth as the Holy Spirit led them and guided them.

So books are valuable, but what we all need to be doing is scouring the pages of God's word and actually studying them. Spending time in prayer with His precious word is what most of us need today.

I have read the bible and do read the bible. But what I can say from experience is that it wasn't until I actually began studying books of the bible that pieces of the puzzle on any given topic began to fit into place. There are so many aha! moments while studying.

And one of the wonderful things about the inductive way of studying God's word is that you come away from the study thinking to yourself, "the Holy Spirit just helped me to understand that." God speaks to our hearts and our minds and fills us with knowledge and wisdom we never knew.

So we all need to quit conforming to the pattern of this world and need to be transformed into the image of God. It can't happen instantly and the word of God with the power of the Holy Spirit is what helps transform our minds into having the mind of Christ.

But I would say that some on here use may more words than 140 characters. Some get into deep discussions with many words and some here do spend lots of time in God's word. You can pick them out by reading their posts.

So I would say that there's a lot of value even in the words spoken here no matter how few or how many. People are learning things on here and seeds are being planted.

If you offered a book for me to read, I'm not sure I'd want to read it either. I'd rather spend time reading God's word and studying it. Go right to the source so to speak and allow Him to lead me and guide me into all truth as He promised He would.

 

[JIMBO43]

What causes God to hide His face from us?

Is it when we sin or break His laws? Is it when we turn our face from Him and seek after the temptations of this world? Is it when we hold onto anger and bitterness and refuse to forgive others?

What are the causes?

What are the results?

And is it a bad thing if it cause death of the flesh and a renewal by the Holy Spirit?

Psalm 104
You hide Your face, they are troubled;
You take away their breath,
they die and return to their dust.

You send forth Your Spirit, they are created;
And You renew the face of the earth.

May the glory of the Lord endure forever; May the Lord rejoice in His works.

I wished i knew and so many will hqave diffrent answers to this one and theres much unanswered i guess we will all have to wait

 

[JIMBO43]

News Flash: He doesn't.

so is this a lie too In a little wrath I hid My face from thee for a moment; but with everlasting kindness will I have mercy on thee, saith the Lord thy Redeemer." Isaiah 54:7, 8

maybe God hides his rath and its the only time he hides as not to bother us with the big stuff as he who is in you is mightier than you,, in other words leave the big stuff to me

 

[Willie-T]

so is this a lie too In a little wrath I hid My face from thee for a moment; but with everlasting kindness will I have mercy on thee, saith the Lord thy Redeemer." Isaiah 54:7, 8

maybe God hides his rath and its the only time he hides as not to bother us with the big stuff as he who is in you is mightier than you,, in other words leave the big stuff to me

We all need to learn how to read the Bible. Please tell me who He was speaking to there? I will help you out with a hint: It was not humanity, in general.

We do not have the luxury of taking things spoken to certain, specific people and groups, and then apply those words to ourselves.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

I looked up the term "hide my face" at the Blue Letter Bible site.

The first use of that term is in Deuteronomy 31:

16 And the LORD said unto Moses, Behold, thou shalt sleep with thy fathers; and this people will rise up, and go a whoring after the gods of the strangers of the land, whither they go to be among them, and will forsake me, and break my covenant which I have made with them.

17 Then my anger shall be kindled against them in that day, and I will forsake them, and I will hide my face from them, and they shall be devoured, and many evils and troubles shall befall them; so that they will say in that day, Are not these evils come upon us, because our God is not among us?

18 And I will surely hide my face in that day for all the evils which they shall have wrought, in that they are turned unto other gods.


Idolatry is a very serious offense against God. If we go to an idol with our requests, will God intervene when we've turned from Him?

I think of the parable in Luke 15. The father allowed the son to go his way. The son was starving and decided to go back to his father and live in his house, not as a son but as a servant.

And what happened? The father saw his son when he was yet a great way off (Luke 15:20). It appears the father was watching for his son, waiting for him to return. The son didn't run to the father. The father ran to his son, put the best robe on him, and a ring on his hand, and shoes on his feet, and had a feast for his son.

Is this not a vision of how God has treated mankind? We turn from Him. He allows us to leave Him and wallow in the muck and mire of the world. But when we finally turn back to Him, He is waiting with outstretched arms to welcome us back. He then clothes us in righteousness, assures us of His everlasting love for us.

Does God hide from us? Or do we turn from Him and He allows us to go our own way?

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

Hi Willie,

I would agree that we as a society want instant everything and its crept it way into the churches.

However, I/we don't need a 40,000 word book either to understand a biblical concept. We need hours of sitting before the feet of Jesus through His word and the study of it.

And that's not to say a book doesn't help because it does or it can. I also have read various books and commentaries. And some are quite helpful, while others weren't much help at all or were worthy of the trash bin.

What I would say is that what I have found that is more valuable than anything is for us to get into God's word and study it. Read it all and ask the Holy Spirit to lead and guide us into all truth. And make sure we also have a good teacher in the process.

God has placed teachers within the body of Christ also, so as we come together we hear the word and have it explained to us. I do believe churches don't completely do the job that God has sent them out to do. We're weak on discipleship.

Jesus spent 3 years with the apostles, discipling them and they still didn't have the complete understanding until the Holy Spirit came upon them and once that happened, they moved out in power, in wisdom and in knowledge. All that Jesus taught them came to their minds in power and in truth as the Holy Spirit led them and guided them.

So books are valuable, but what we all need to be doing is scouring the pages of God's word and actually studying them. Spending time in prayer with His precious word is what most of us need today.

I have read the bible and do read the bible. But what I can say from experience is that it wasn't until I actually began studying books of the bible that pieces of the puzzle on any given topic began to fit into place. There are so many aha! moments while studying.

And one of the wonderful things about the inductive way of studying God's word is that you come away from the study thinking to yourself, "the Holy Spirit just helped me to understand that." God speaks to our hearts and our minds and fills us with knowledge and wisdom we never knew.

So we all need to quit conforming to the pattern of this world and need to be transformed into the image of God. It can't happen instantly and the word of God with the power of the Holy Spirit is what helps transform our minds into having the mind of Christ.

But I would say that some on here use may more words than 140 characters. Some get into deep discussions with many words and some here do spend lots of time in God's word. You can pick them out by reading their posts.

So I would say that there's a lot of value even in the words spoken here no matter how few or how many. People are learning things on here and seeds are being planted.

If you offered a book for me to read, I'm not sure I'd want to read it either. I'd rather spend time reading God's word and studying it. Go right to the source so to speak and allow Him to lead me and guide me into all truth as He promised He would.

I love your post.

I have noticed something odd. I will be reading and He shows me something and I am amazed that I really understand it.
Then, I go through some experience in life and fail to actually use the knowledge He gave me somehow. I either forgot it in the circumstance or could not make the connection between the knowledge and what was happening currently - couldn't see that the knowledge applied in the circumstance.

And then, afterward, He shows me my failure and that is when it is truly cemented in me. It seems to me like the difference between reading a book and eating it...does that sound crazy?