Let them Eat MEAT! Learning spiritual discernment: legalism

[Billyd]

Clear something up for me. Do you believe that we are (or are not) to obey the Ten Commandments? Explain?

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

Now would be a good time to check out some fruit here, don'tcha think?

Why would we pounce on each other

We've all seen you spit out a bad piece or two, Stephen. Why pounce on someone for one? It's not perfection, but growing consistency that we hope and look for.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

Is that what you think? I give one example, & you come up with this?

Can love be faked? Ask a woman whose husband cheated on her.
Is Satan also patient? Can he endure?
Have you ever met someone with a false humility?
You've caught a hypocrite before, haven't you?

The HARD evidence of a person's fruit is their understanding of the Word, because only the washed in Christ can spiritually discern what the Bible is saying, for the Holy Spirit will lead them in that discernment. That proof of fruit is ironclad.

The handling of scripture should be be one of the first fruits to look for when a person seems to be mature in Christ.

OH! What a loaded question! Yes, Stephen, I have caught a hypocrite more times than I care to remember. She was glaring at me from my mirror!

 

[Billyd]

Is that what you think? I give one example, & you come up with this?

Can love be faked? Ask a woman whose husband cheated on her.
Is Satan also patient? Can he endure?
Have you ever met someone with a false humility?
You've caught a hypocrite before, haven't you?

The HARD evidence of a person's fruit is their understanding of the Word, because only the washed in Christ can spiritually discern what the Bible is saying, for the Holy Spirit will lead them in that discernment. That proof of fruit is ironclad.

The handling of scripture should be be one of the first fruits to look for when a person seems to be mature in Christ.

"The HARD evidence of a person's fruit is their understanding of the Word, because only the washed in Christ can spiritually discern what the Bible is saying, for the Holy Spirit will lead them in that discernment. That proof of fruit is ironclad. "

Please give us some examples of the HARD evidence that you are talking about here.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

Is that what you think? I give one example, & you come up with this?

Can love be faked? Ask a woman whose husband cheated on her.
Is Satan also patient? Can he endure?
Have you ever met someone with a false humility?
You've caught a hypocrite before, haven't you?

The HARD evidence of a person's fruit is their understanding of the Word, because only the washed in Christ can spiritually discern what the Bible is saying, for the Holy Spirit will lead them in that discernment. That proof of fruit is ironclad.

The handling of scripture should be be one of the first fruits to look for when a person seems to be mature in Christ.

Your example was OSAS v. NOSAS. What example would I use if not the one you gave?
If you are going to demand "perfection" of doctrine, then you set yourself up to be perfect in your understanding of God? You have reached perfection before us? Or do you just insist that everyones "perfection" of doctrine be as advanced and admirable as your own?

I used your example. BY that example, you condemn 50% of Spirit led people. Many godly men, with the fruit of humility, forgiveness, love, meekness, etc., believe one way or the other.

 

[Billyd]

OH! What a loaded question! Yes, Stephen, I have caught a hypocrite more times than I care to remember. She was glaring at me from my mirror!

You have one of those mirrors too.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

You have one of those mirrors too.

Yes. It has a lot of cracks in it....

 

[PeterJens]

Clear something up for me. Do you believe that we are (or are not) to obey the Ten Commandments? Explain?

Are these covered in the law of Christ? Yes, but with a variation on the sabbath, murder and adultery.

Are we to obey in a letter way or because we love God and our neighbour? Because we love.

 

[Ariel82]

Oh wow. This thread exploded.

Haven't had a chance to read most responses,but thought it a good time to pray. (always a good time to pray, but out loud then.)

Sometimes it's the silence when we wait and listen for God's reply that I find the most comfort and peace. There for of you would pray with me. Take a minute for silence and I will post the prayer shortly.

 

[HEIsRiSen]

1 Corinthians 13New International Version (NIV)

13 If I speak in the tongues[SUP][a][/SUP] of men or of angels, but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. [SUP]2 [/SUP]If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. [SUP]3 [/SUP]If I give all I possess to the poor and give over my body to hardship that I may boast,[SUP][b][/SUP] but do not have love, I gain nothing.
[SUP]4 [/SUP]Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. [SUP]5 [/SUP]It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. [SUP]6 [/SUP]Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. [SUP]7 [/SUP]It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.
[SUP]8 [/SUP]Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. [SUP]9 [/SUP]For we know in part and we prophesy in part, [SUP]10 [/SUP]but when completeness comes, what is in part disappears. [SUP]11 [/SUP]When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put the ways of childhood behind me. [SUP]12 [/SUP]For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.
[SUP]13 [/SUP]And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.

 

[HEIsRiSen]

It's all about getting to know yourself so you know what to look out for and see the stumbling blocks out there. Seeing yourself only as a reflection and knowing that that flesh is not really who you are, that you are a spirit being and are spirit led. Once you know who you are you have faith, hope, and love. By far the greatest is love, love is what keeps people together, love is also what brings people together. If we don't have love we are left with nothing.

 

[Ariel82]

Dear Heavenly Father: you have blessed us with the time and ability to gather here tonight. We know that where two or more are gathered you are with us.

Lord let us feel your presence here tonight. The distractions of the world, the hurts of yesterday, the sucesses and the failures, we pay them all before Your throne God. Show us how we might be used for your glory. Heal us so we can minister love and healing to those around us. Focus our minds on what is good and wholesome and pure. Help us to speak with gentleness, patience and love. Lord help each of us value each other as beloved brothers and sisters. Like siblings we might fight, but help us remember Your love and your ways. Let us speak with wisdom from above and learn how to eat meat. How to discern good from evil. We are learning to walk Lord, give our siblings hearts of love to help one another up, instead of pointinh, laughing or teasing. God in our brokenness we remember You are our Healer.

Thank you Lord for your many blessings. We praise you for the sunrise and the sunset, the rain and the sunny days, the quiet moments with our pets, the loving embrace of friends and the smile upon the faces of our loved ones. Thank you for the food we eat, the clothes that keep us warm, the house that protects us from the elements.

Lord we pray for those without food, shelter or clothes. We pray for the homeless, the orphans. We pray for the persecuted church and we pray for the church in leisure. Lord sometimes it overwhelms us, but we trust it all into your hands.

We know that You know our needs before we speak them, but we pray out of faith not for your benefit but our own.

So we thank you for sending your son, so that we might boldly approach your throne and sit upon your lap and pour our troubles to you, our beloved father.

Therefore in Jesus Holy name we pray, amen.

 

[Ariel82]

Wow that was longer than I intended.

 

[HEIsRiSen]

couldn't have said it better myself.

 

[Ariel82]

I asked this because one can end up defining legalism, and Jesus is pushing things further.
The danger is always going from a healthy understanding of boundaries into continual self
condemnation. Take a simple idea. I think of someone who is beautiful. Appreciation of
various attributes arises. Now that could be called lust, or acknowledging my response to
them. Now dwelling on this emotion and using fantasy, now that is lust.

Some have a very imaginative mind, find themselves dreaming about individuals.
A cycle of condemnation and failure can then result, with suppression etc.

Rather than seeking help, they get eaten up, and leave the faith, or get so sensitive
about emotional reactions, refuse any contact with the opposite sex.

So a concept of purity is like poison, that triggers condemnation, guilt, and rejection.
So lock it all away, and hope it stays hidden. So addictions prosper, because honesty and
discussion is too dangerous, because the image is everything, and victory or balance is
no longer an issue of faith, it is just our little secret.

Legalism creates this environment, where truth of our fallen nature and lostness cannot
see the light of day.

That is an excellent point. Legalism fosters the fake masks, like white washed tombs of the Pharisees. However sometimes the mask hides pain, it testers and ears away at people.

Part of what Christ does is teach us to be real and not fake. Admit our brokenness and then He heals us. Sometimes He use our brokenness and healing to heal others as well,

I used to try and pretend that I was more put together than I really was. Didn't fool anyone, especially not myself. But I am reading a book called "the Me I want to be" by John Ortberg...

It's really nice.

 

[PeterJens]

Does 15 years seem that amazing? I struggled with trying to make myself loving and get control of my tongue and my anger when my toes were stepped on for at least...8 years. True, I wasn't following outwardly the law, but does it really make that much difference? I was still struggling to obey the law inwardly. I had the Spirit, but it took that long to get a real understanding that HE had to do it. I went 8 years like that and in one second I was freed from that struggle and saw that I couldn't be good and that He had to do it.

Stunned - you have different fruit. Your issues are ones of the heart and personal,
not a mission against a whole group, to which you previously belonged.

You have from your heart shared your struggles and your desire to walk with the Spirit
in victory over them. So my heart say amen to you, from all that I am.

What you have displayed is both repentance, confession and ministry of God in your
life. And I know from your words you have changed. Likewise you have read a different
emotional response from myself, mainly because I was not being looked at and responded
to as an enemy.

One member who I thought might have grown and changed, called me a rodent straight
away. Others recently related me to the serpent in the garden of eden. But then I did not
expect much more than this, because I knew I could not reach who they are.

And in the end that is what all this comes down to. Being honest and real in the body and
with Christ. It gets hard wired into you, because it is what the Kingdom is, and those who
do not walk this way feel it, but do not know how to respond. It is why we are called light.
I begin to understand more through these forums, and how people on all sides have problems
with this, ofcourse myself as well, as it is always a walk. So I appreciate your fellowship,
and your honesty.

I remember sharing something from my heart and experience, and I was told I was lying.
This says a lot about what people think is real behaviour and what is exaguration, and they
have never met or understood it is their ability to judge that is off and not peoples sharing.
It does get more complex when people also exagurate and distort something as well, even
well meaning ones, so grace and love is also needed in some measure.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

Wow that was longer than I intended.

It was perfect.

 

[Ariel82]

No, that's not what he's saying.
Of course if the Holy Spirit convicts you of something you have done, you say: I see, forgive me, and you pray for the help you need. That's not doing wrong - that's doing right.

I strongly suggest that you let others speak for themselves...it's less confusing that way...because sometimes I have learned that I have incorrectly summarized their beliefs and they can speak for themselves.

Sides "convict" is a trigger word.

 

[Willie-T]

An interesting point. "You brood of vipers" was addressed to people who were only interested
in destroying people not listening to the truth.

"insides like a tomb" is describing someone who has no heart, is literally none responsive to
normal emotional empathy from a hard heart and seared conscience.

Dying with ones money has no foundation in scripture. A foolish man who hoards up their
wealth only to die and meet the Lord, now that has application.

"Foolish statement" is again not biblical, and gets close to calling someone a fool, especially
in anger.

So whatever this point is, it demonstrates some emotional blindness and wrong application.
But maybe I am being too harsh on someone who was loosing it. So much history of hurts
and failure, such a burden is difficult to carry. May God bless you and bring you release
and healing.

I can't believe even you have not heard, at least twenty times, the story of Simon the Sorcerer trying to buy the "power." Man, you really ARE kind of weak on Bible knowledge, aren't you?

 

[Willie-T]

I strongly suggest that you let others speak for themselves...it's less confusing that way...because sometimes I have learned that I have incorrectly summarized their beliefs and they can speak for themselves.

Sides "convict" is a trigger word.

As it should be for all of us when someone tries to use it as saying the Holy Spirit brings shame, guilt, and condemnation on Believers.

I believe Romans says there is now NO condemnation for us in Christ.l