Israel is NOT the Church and the Church is NOT Israel.

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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#61
#61
Ahwatukee said:
There are two primary distinctions to dispensationalism: 1) a consistently literal interpretation of Scripture, especially Bible prophecy, and 2) a view of the uniqueness of Israel as being separate from the church in God’s program.

The church did not exist prior to Christ's appearing, for he says:

"I will [build] my church and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it."

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Actually yes it did, It just was not called gthe church as we know it, The church has been around since Christ redeemed adam and eve, and it started wiht the first prophesy, which will literally come true (gen 3: 15)

and it will be filled with every believer from adam until the last person ever saved while this current earth is in existence.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#62
#62
iamsoandso said:
I notice that this has always been this way one position at odds with another position. As far back as we look there was the protestants at odds with the Catholics, the Amills against the mills ect. In the days when Christ was born there were the Pharisees,the Sadducee,Essenes,Zealots,Sicarii ect. all at odds with one another on the matter of Eschatology.
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I think satan has a huge hand in this,, Thats what he wants, to divide the church..

It is one thing to have disagreements, But satan gets some people so bent out of shape they start condemning other people for things which are not even salvic in nature.

Sadly, Satan has them right where he wants them..

They may be saved, but they are HURTING the church. and Gods mission.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#63
#63
MattTooFor said:
Well...if you can find one of those 'good' wars...feel free to point it out. Start a thread or something.:)

Well...I say again, almost to a man and to a woman, virtually ALL Evangelicals support all the current wars and brewing wars ("wars and rumors of wars") going on all across the Middle East.

The very backbone of support for the "military/industrial complex" comes from Evangelicals. It is what it is. What can one say?

And yes, it ties into Zionism...the support of which is justified by "dispensationalism" with all its attendant mis-teachings.
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Jesus said there will be warms are rumors of wars. Nation will rise against nation and kingdom against kingdom.

So why are you so surprised? Prophesy is coming true. God spoke, and it is happening.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#64
#64
iamsoandso said:
I think that if there were any possible advancement between preterite and dispensationist it would be if to focus on one thing, that being if the wrath of God is only poured out on the ones who have the mark,the number worship the image ect. did those who were of the revolt from ad66-70 have the mark or did they not, is this scripture fulfilled...
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I think this is easily proven.

there was no ability to control personal finance of everyone on earth in the 1st century,

yet today, we are ion the verge of going cashless, at which time, a world leader can easily control the buying and selling of goods.

it is amazing that people even 100 years ago had to take things on faith we today see coming into view
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#66
#66
pottersclay said:
I love Jacob but hate Esau.......Jesus gave his life for his bride....seems we got 2keepers .
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Jacob did not HATE a baby, He loved esau,

Now he did LOVE Edom less than he did JACOB/ISREAL as nations.. because he chose one, to show the world his true love.. and to be a witness to him.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#67
#67
iamsoandso said:
I'll reword it again Israel in ad70,did God pour out his wrath on them because they had the mark,name ect. and worship the beast and if so it is fulfilled and none afterwards needs to look for it in the future? If so then it would be as well easy enough for it to be explained what the mark was and who the beast was as proof.
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In AD 70 God fulfilled his promise in lev 26 of what he would do if they disobeyed him,
 
Ahwatukee

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
#68
Mar 12, 2015
11,159
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#68
eternally-gratefull said:

Actually yes it did, It just was not called gthe church as we know it, The church has been around since Christ redeemed adam and eve, and it started wiht the first prophesy, which will literally come true (gen 3: 15)

and it will be filled with every believer from adam until the last person ever saved while this current earth is in existence.
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Hello EG,

I personally don't believe that. As I pointed out, Jesus said, "I will build my church" future tense, meaning the church didn't previously exist.
 
tanakh

tanakh

Senior Member
#69
Dec 1, 2015
4,635
1,041
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#69
notuptome said:
Israel is not the church. The church is not Israel. Israel is the bride of Jehovah. The church is the bride of Christ. Both have an inheritance in eternity. Both have an expectation of eternal life through the grace of God. Israel because of disobedience is receiving judgment from God. the church is receiving blessing promised to Israel because of Israel's disobedience.

The church is the wild olive graft into the vine. The church is graft in because the natural branch was broken off. The natural branch can and will be graft back in at a future date. Both Israel and the church must draw from the same root which is God. Both share in the inheritance and both share in the blessing although it now in different eras.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
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So the Trinitarian God has two Brides. I didnt realise that the Mormons were right after all and Polygamy extends right to the Godhead.

Which is correct? That Israel is under Gods judgement for sin and disobedience or Israels existence is a sign of Gods blessing despite it being a mainly secular state that rejects Christ as many seem to believe. There is an alternative to consider. Israel is a secular state created by the UN in 1948. It has nothing to do with Prophecy at all and owes its continued existence to varying degrees of material political and financial support from the US since its inception
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#70
#70
tanakh said:
So the Trinitarian God has two Brides. I didnt realise that the Mormons were right after all and Polygamy extends right to the Godhead.

Which is correct? That Israel is under Gods judgement for sin and disobedience or Israels existence is a sign of Gods blessing despite it being a mainly secular state that rejects Christ as many seem to believe. There is an alternative to consider. Israel is a secular state created by the UN in 1948. It has nothing to do with Prophecy at all and owes its continued existence to varying degrees of material political and financial support from the US since its inception
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Agree,

Jehovah is christ, And he has one bride.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#71
#71
Ahwatukee said:
Hello EG,

I personally don't believe that. As I pointed out, Jesus said, "I will build my church" future tense, meaning the church didn't previously exist.
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He has already been building it, and in the future he will continue to build it.

The church is his body, his people. Daniel, Abraham, Noah, Adam, and all OT believers will all be a prt of that family, and that family is his bride.
 
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MattTooFor

Guest
#72
#72
eternally-gratefull said:

Jesus said there will be warms are rumors of wars. Nation will rise against nation and kingdom against kingdom.

So why are you so surprised? Prophesy is coming true. God spoke, and it is happening.
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I didn't say I was "surprised". I just say I'm opposed to dispensationalists backing all these bloody wars.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#73
#73
ah ok..

Thanks, that explains it all..

Next........
 
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MattTooFor

Guest
#74
#74
eternally-gratefull said:
It is obvious you have never studied dispensationalism, Because it root foundation has nothing to do with what you just claimed.
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I was a dispensationalist to the age of 35. My Dad was a pastor and a dispensationalist to his dying day. I know dispensationalism inside and out.

Another conspiracy theorist..
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Conspiracy theorist? I was simply stating a fact: Every top Evangelical supports every single war which the mil/ind complex trots out. Just a simple fact.

And by the way, the entire world is under the shadow of a satanic "conspiracy" to gain global dominance. It's right there in the Bible! The Devil's "scheme" (i.e. conspiracy) to take over the world, and place his "Antichrist" at the pinnacle of human governments.
 
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MattTooFor

Guest
#75
#75
tanakh said:
Its very telling how some peoples Christianity and Politics appear to walk hand in hand. The Sadducees are stll alive and well
in 21st Century America.
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I'm not sure what you're saying. Are you against my non-liberal stance...or for it? You seem like a pretty solid thinker, from what I've seen of your posts. But I do disagree with a number of things you have said. But hey...that's unavoidable.:)
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#76
#76
MattTooFor said:
I was a dispensationalist to the age of 35. My Dad was a pastor and a dispensationalist to his dying day. I know dispensationalism inside and out.
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Oh you do, thats funny, because what you posted earlier, Does not look like dispensationalism at all..

Maybe you were part of a select group that misrepresent God and what true dispensationalism is, But you do not understand it at all.. I have been one all my life. and NEVER heard what you said except from a few fanatical people who buy into that form of theology.


Conspiracy theorist? I was simply stating a fact: Every top Evangelical supports every single war which the mil/ind complex trots out. Just a simple fact.
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Oh they do? I know people who are preterists who supports most of those wars.(lutherans, catholics etc) What does that make them?



And by the way, the entire world is under the shadow of a satanic "conspiracy" to gain global dominance. It's right there in the Bible! The Devil's "scheme" (i.e. conspiracy) to take over the world, and place his "Antichrist" at the pinnacle of human governments.
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Yep it is, and by the way, thanks for just proving dispensationalsim still lives, Because God is not done with human history.
 
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MattTooFor

Guest
#77
#77
Grandpa said:
Are you saying the star of David is satanic?

Weren't jews using that as their symbol before 1948?
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It's an age-old occult symbol going back centuries. And with obscene significance.

My beef with most conservative Bible Christians in America is...they've somehow forgotten...this is the Devil's world. God's kingdom has not yet arrived to earth. That's why we pray the Lord's Prayer "may thy kingdom come [to earth] as it [already] is in heaven".

1John 5:19 says the whole world ("cosmos"- lit. "the world system") is under the control and the domain of "the evil one". Satan raises up ALL the kingdoms of this world and ALL the great powers, ALL the great armies. He owns the entire chessboard...for now.

When the Devil took Jesus, (during His "temptation") up to the high mountain, he told Him "all the kingdoms of the world are mine to give if you will but bow before me". The Devil didn't say "all the kingdoms of the world...except for the United States of America" - lol!

The Devil has raised up the kingdoms of the world and thus the Devil has arranged for the modern, secular (and actually occult) state of Israel. Plain biblical fact. Just because the Bible acknowledges a re-emergence, a resurrection (if you will), a "regathering" of Jewish people to the Middle East...doesn't mean Christians in America now had a moral authorization...nor does anyone have a moral authorization...to steamroll the lives of multitudes of innocent people who happened to be living and minding their own business back in 1948.
 
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LaurenTM

Guest
#78
#78
MattTooFor said:
It's an age-old occult symbol going back centuries. And with obscene significance.

My beef with most conservative Bible Christians in America is...they've somehow forgotten...this is the Devil's world. God's kingdom has not yet arrived to earth. That's why we pray the Lord's Prayer "may thy kingdom come [to earth] as it [already] is in heaven".

1John 5:19 says the whole world ("cosmos"- lit. "the world system") is under the control and the domain of "the evil one". Satan raises up ALL the kingdoms of this world and ALL the great powers, ALL the great armies. He owns the entire chessboard...for now.

When the Devil took Jesus, (during His "temptation") up to the high mountain, he told Him "all the kingdoms of the world are mine to give if you will but bow before me". The Devil didn't say "all the kingdoms of the world...except for the United States of America" - lol!

The Devil has raised up the kingdoms of the world and thus the Devil has arranged for the modern, secular (and actually occult) state of Israel. Plain biblical fact. Just because the Bible acknowledges a re-emergence, a resurrection (if you will), a "regathering" of Jewish people to the Middle East...doesn't mean Christians in America now had a moral authorization...nor does anyone have a moral authorization...to steamroll the lives of multitudes of innocent people who happened to be living and minding their own business back in 1948.
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obscene? what would that be?

there are actually many contradictions and interpretations regarding the symbol

where in scripture do you support the notion that this world is the devil's?

the Psalms tell us that the earth is the Lord's and the fullness thereof

now if you mean that the world systems are satanic...well yes they are...but maybe define what those systems are before making a sweeping generalization that does not actually reflect what the word states?

the Bible also indicates that God raises up one kingdom and puts another down

the devil is not in charge

do I misunderstand ? then please clarify and I would seriously like to know what your reference to obscenity is with regards to the star
 
88

88

Senior Member
#79
Nov 14, 2016
3,517
77
48
#79
Israel is the "apple" of God's eye (Deuteronomy 32:10) --- in plain Texan--- don' t mess with them...
 
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MattTooFor

Guest
#80
#80
LaurenTM said:
now if you mean that the world systems are satanic...well yes they are...but maybe define what those systems are before making a sweeping generalization that does not actually reflect what the word states?
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I had already provided the passage in 1John 5:19 - "the entire world lies within the control and the grasp of the evil one". The "world" is literally "the world system". The Devil is the designer, the architect, the builder, the owner and the operator...of the "world system".

Of course, God is still sovereign. But He has allowed the Devil to have his little playpen for a teensy-tiny few thousand years...and then God will come crashing in to interrupt the 'festivities' when He is ready to do so. And of course, God fully reserves the right to thwart the devil's activities wherever and whenever He sees fit. i don't deny that. But 1John 5:19 still sits there. As does the passage about Jesus' temptation...where the Devil acknowledged that ALL the "kingdoms" of this world are his to give. The devil raises up all the kingdoms of this world. GOD'S kingdom has not yet arrived to earth.

I believe you may be referring to passages like Ps.75 where it says that God raises up and casts down individuals. And yes, I agree -- Planet Earth belongs to God, completely and totally. God is sovereign. No question.

If you want my take on occult symbols, you would need to look through a couple of short articles I've posted online. I don't really prefer to get into the obscenities and the evils of occult symbols in midst of a Bible discussion! Go here and then scroll down to where I am talking about Michael w. Smith briefly. Then scroll down to where I talk about Pat Robertson and a longer portion on all these occult symbols and signals.
 
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