Unconditional Election or Conditional Election

[nowyouseem033]

If you really wanted to keep it simple you would follow what God's word says, but you continue to want to use your predispositional bias and the rationale you have built up by human reasoning.

God's word teaches that he draws us to Jesus and that we either accept the reality of who Jesus is meant to be in our lives or we reject it. if we accept it then we are baptized by the Holy Spirit and grow in power through the Holy Spirit as he makes God's word real to us in our lives. The problem with logic, as you have clearly demonstrated, is that you can talk yourself out of just about anything. No where does the bible imply or state that we as humans cannot make spiritual choices in our lives prior to accepting Jesus Christ. Many people make spiritual decisions prior to accepting Jesus Christ as their savior and the fact that you misrepresent and or do not understand what the Bible says about no man being good is why you continue to remain in confusion. It appears to me that you have never received the baptism of the Holy Spirit. Why is that if you are saved?

It appears to me that you have never recieved the baptism of the Holy Spirit???? Sure whatever you think.... Way to avoid the topic at hand by accusing me of not having the Spirit. Thats twice as well. Your cunning and a guilt placer if thats how you go about discussing with people.

 

[StanJ]

You say where does the bible imply or state we cannot make spiritual decisions in our lives?

1 Corinthians 2:14 "The person without the Spirit does not accept the things of God but considers them foolishness and cannot understand them because they are spiritually discerned"

(who is this talking about.... the sinner CANNOT ACCEPT nor CANNOT UNDERSTAND... why? because its foolish. Doesnt say may not accept or reject now does it) Id like to see how you would respond to this scripture.

1 Corinthians 1:18 "For the message of the cross is foolishness to those that are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God"

(Notice its say to US not all... same again foolishness to those who are perishing. Why? because they dont understand it. Why? Because they are not spiritually discerned.)

Romans 8:7-8 "...those in the flesh cannot please God"

Choosing Christ is pleasing to God but you cannot please him IN THE FLESH.

John 1:13 "children not born of human decent, nor human decision, nor a husbands command, but born of God"

This verse actually refutes the idea you are born of God through your human decision. You go against the scripture claiming we are born of God because of our decision.

You havent answered the questions i posted in 316, and make no attempt to but instead you like to mock me and say i do this and i do that and i have predispositional notions etc etc. Well take it up with scripture above about the incapability and non desire to choose Christ. Your 62 and the one whos acting immature.

Substantiate your claims. Refute my ideas. Instead of saying "oh you use your brain to much" What kind of argument is that?

I guess I can't be surprised that you start off by misquoting me but in any event I asked you a question and you didn't answer it.

The scriptures you quoted have nothing to do with what I asked. the fact is that you continually with all people who disagree with you never answer their questions but just posed new questions yourself that deflects and obfuscates the real issues.
If I were you I would stop paraphrasing the Bible and use the Modern English translations that are already there. they don't say what you paraphrase them to say.
What John one says in its proper context is;
[FONT=&quot]But to all who have received him—those who believe in his name—he has given the right to become God’s children[/FONT][FONT=&quot]—children not born by human parents or by human desire or a husband’s decision, but by God.
[/FONT]Apparently you don't have the spirit because you don't understand what is clearly written here. The act of receiving is based on one's own will and recognition of what they are receiving. It is not foisted upon them or forced upon them. It is presented as simple truth which they can either accept or reject. This is another scripture I have addressed several times to you which you fail to understand or even acknowledge afterwards. Although you probably don't understand it, your silence conveys your acquiescence to the facts you have been given.
Have you ever read Romans 10:8-13? if you have it seems you didn't understand it very well.
I have already refuted your ideas more often than I care to count but as one who is inculcated into their false teaching you do not recognize it. As you have never received the baptism of the Holy Spirit then I can only assume that the verses that talk about worshipping in spirit and in truth are foreign to you.

 

[nowyouseem033]

I guess I can't be surprised that you start off by misquoting me but in any event I asked you a question and you didn't answer it.

The scriptures you quoted have nothing to do with what I asked. the fact is that you continually with all people who disagree with you never answer their questions but just posed new questions yourself that deflects and obfuscates the real issues.
If I were you I would stop paraphrasing the Bible and use the Modern English translations that are already there. they don't say what you paraphrase them to say.
What John one says in its proper context is;
But to all who have received him—those who believe in his name—he has given the right to become God’s children—children not born by human parents or by human desire or a husband’s decision, but by God.
Apparently you don't have the spirit because you don't understand what is clearly written here. The act of receiving is based on one's own will and recognition of what they are receiving. It is not foisted upon them or forced upon them. It is presented as simple truth which they can either accept or reject. This is another scripture I have addressed several times to you which you fail to understand or even acknowledge afterwards. Although you probably don't understand it, your silence conveys your acquiescence to the facts you have been given.
Have you ever read Romans 10:8-13? if you have it seems you didn't understand it very well.
I have already refuted your ideas more often than I care to count but as one who is inculcated into their false teaching you do not recognize it. As you have never received the baptism of the Holy Spirit then I can only assume that the verses that talk about worshipping in spirit and in truth are foreign to you.

What part of CANNOT dont you understand? Its not may not its CANNOT! Ive read Romans 10:8-13 ... i dont get whats the problem here? John 1:13 is in context for John gives us how we have the right to become children of God... We believed and then he says how. I disagree with you based upon scripture. So you ignore all those verses i posted... ?

 

[nowyouseem033]

I guess I can't be surprised that you start off by misquoting me but in any event I asked you a question and you didn't answer it.

The scriptures you quoted have nothing to do with what I asked. the fact is that you continually with all people who disagree with you never answer their questions but just posed new questions yourself that deflects and obfuscates the real issues.
If I were you I would stop paraphrasing the Bible and use the Modern English translations that are already there. they don't say what you paraphrase them to say.
What John one says in its proper context is;
But to all who have received him—those who believe in his name—he has given the right to become God’s children—children not born by human parents or by human desire or a husband’s decision, but by God.
Apparently you don't have the spirit because you don't understand what is clearly written here. The act of receiving is based on one's own will and recognition of what they are receiving. It is not foisted upon them or forced upon them. It is presented as simple truth which they can either accept or reject. This is another scripture I have addressed several times to you which you fail to understand or even acknowledge afterwards. Although you probably don't understand it, your silence conveys your acquiescence to the facts you have been given.
Have you ever read Romans 10:8-13? if you have it seems you didn't understand it very well.
I have already refuted your ideas more often than I care to count but as one who is inculcated into their false teaching you do not recognize it. As you have never received the baptism of the Holy Spirit then I can only assume that the verses that talk about worshipping in spirit and in truth are foreign to you.

As you have never received the baptism of the Spirit? Thats a third time.... when will the accusations end! You like accusing people Stan? You do it quite often clearly

 

[nowyouseem033]

I guess I can't be surprised that you start off by misquoting me but in any event I asked you a question and you didn't answer it.

The scriptures you quoted have nothing to do with what I asked. the fact is that you continually with all people who disagree with you never answer their questions but just posed new questions yourself that deflects and obfuscates the real issues.
If I were you I would stop paraphrasing the Bible and use the Modern English translations that are already there. they don't say what you paraphrase them to say.
What John one says in its proper context is;
But to all who have received him—those who believe in his name—he has given the right to become God’s children—children not born by human parents or by human desire or a husband’s decision, but by God.
Apparently you don't have the spirit because you don't understand what is clearly written here. The act of receiving is based on one's own will and recognition of what they are receiving. It is not foisted upon them or forced upon them. It is presented as simple truth which they can either accept or reject. This is another scripture I have addressed several times to you which you fail to understand or even acknowledge afterwards. Although you probably don't understand it, your silence conveys your acquiescence to the facts you have been given.
Have you ever read Romans 10:8-13? if you have it seems you didn't understand it very well.
I have already refuted your ideas more often than I care to count but as one who is inculcated into their false teaching you do not recognize it. As you have never received the baptism of the Holy Spirit then I can only assume that the verses that talk about worshipping in spirit and in truth are foreign to you.

Simple question: Why doesnt the gospel make sense to people?

 

[StanJ]

What part of CANNOT dont you understand? Its not may not its CANNOT! Ive read Romans 10:8-13 ... i dont get whats the problem here? John 1:13 is in context for John gives us how we have the right to become children of God... We believed and then he says how. I disagree with you based upon scripture. So you ignore all those verses i posted... ?

You're just babbling here please put some context into what your posting. You don't get how Romans 10:8-13 refutes your idea?
[FONT=&quot]8 But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith that we preach), [/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT][FONT=&quot]9 because if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. [/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT][FONT=&quot]10 [/FONT][FONT=&quot]For with the heart one believes and thus has righteousness and with the mouth one confesses and thus has salvation[/FONT][FONT=&quot]. [/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT][FONT=&quot]11 For the scripture says, “Everyone who believes in him will not be put to shame.” [/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT][FONT=&quot]12 For there is no distinction between the Jew and the Greek, for the same Lord is Lord of all, who richly blesses all who call on him. [/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT][FONT=&quot]13 For [/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT][FONT=&quot]everyone[/FONT][FONT=&quot] who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.

[/FONT]What does John 1:12 say? You misread and misinterpret scripture and even when you're corrected you still can't see your error?
It seems to me a rather fruitless endeavor to try to pursue any kind of discussion with you

 

[nowyouseem033]

You're just babbling here please put some context into what your posting. You don't get how Romans 10:8-13 refutes your idea?
8 But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith that we preach), 9 because if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes and thus has righteousness and with the mouth one confesses and thus has salvation. 11 For the scripture says, “Everyone who believes in him will not be put to shame.” 12 For there is no distinction between the Jew and the Greek, for the same Lord is Lord of all, who richly blesses all who call on him. 13 For everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.

What does John 1:12 say? You misread and misinterpret scripture and even when you're corrected you still can't see your error?
It seems to me a rather fruitless endeavor to try to pursue any kind of discussion with you

So what does John 1:12-13 say then? Instead of say your wrong substantiate your claim. You havent done that...

I agree with what you posted in regards to Romans. Ive done that myself but the question is WHY?

Again you fail to give reasons why one would do that ? Why would i possibly confess and believe when my nature, mind, will are all lovers of darkness and sin and at enmity with God.

Again Why?

The answer: The spirit has regenerated me, opened my blind eyes, opened my heart to do so. Otherwise i wouldnt do so.
Not that hard to understand is it StanJ.

 

[StanJ]

So what does John 1:12-13 say then? Instead of say your wrong substantiate your claim. You havent done that...

I agree with what you posted in regards to Romans. Ive done that myself but the question is WHY?

Again you fail to give reasons why one would do that ? Why would i possibly confess and believe when my nature, mind, will are all lovers of darkness and sin and at enmity with God.

Again Why?

The answer: The spirit has regenerated me, opened my blind eyes, opened my heart to do so. Otherwise i wouldnt do so.
Not that hard to understand is it StanJ.

Well I know you can read so you know what it says and the fact that you refuse to admit it here just shows what your M/O really is.
I have no idea what you mean by why?
Again you ask questions without any context which I can only assume is deliberate in order to obfuscate the real issue here.
If you want to ask me questions, quote what I say and ask the question afterwards. I'm sure you know how that works on forums like this.
I see no where in the scriptures that we are told we are regenerated and in order to be regenerated we must have had to be generate at first. Do you understand that?

 

[nowyouseem033]

You're just babbling here please put some context into what your posting. You don't get how Romans 10:8-13 refutes your idea?
8 But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith that we preach), 9 because if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes and thus has righteousness and with the mouth one confesses and thus has salvation. 11 For the scripture says, “Everyone who believes in him will not be put to shame.” 12 For there is no distinction between the Jew and the Greek, for the same Lord is Lord of all, who richly blesses all who call on him. 13 For everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.

What does John 1:12 say? You misread and misinterpret scripture and even when you're corrected you still can't see your error?
It seems to me a rather fruitless endeavor to try to pursue any kind of discussion with you

It is fruitless speaking to you. At least we agree there.

After accusing me of not having the Spirit, willing ignorance to substantiate reasons for why 1 John 1:12-13 and other scriptures are out of context, repeated insinuations im wrong (which i dont mind) with no reasons for why im wrong, and the blantant arrogance and disregard for any worthy engagement of discussion my conclusion is immaturity and ignorance.

Now your probably going to do what you did last time and say you have 3 kids bring your family into it and say how YOU are better and greater than me and have more experience because you cannot defend the claims made against you.

To which i will reply sure if thats what you think then so be it.

Orthodox Christianity is Calvinism. Im glad people are not consistent Arminians otherwise you would start treading on Orthodox Catholicism. Afterall they too believe in mans freewill against mans complete deadness in sin.

If you want a church history lesson look to these great men who defend you and are Calvinists:
CH Spurgeon
Jonathan Edwards
Abraham Lincoln
George Whitfield
Martin Luther
John Knox
William Tyndale
Detriech Bonhoeffer
Karl Barth
John Calvin
John Owen
Augustine
BB Warfield
John Bunyan
Martin Llyod Jones
John Wycliffe
Charles Hodge
Herman Bavnick
Richard Baxter
Cornelius Van till
JC Ryle
Franciss Schaeufer
Greg Bahnsen
Jim Elliot
AW Pink
John Flavell
John Gill
Abraham Kuyper
John Machen
George Mueller
Richard Sibbes
William Carey
Gerhardus Vos
Matthew Henry
Octavius Winslow
The Apsotles
Jesus Christ

I guess theyre all heretics because theyre wrong. Please!

 

[nowyouseem033]

Well I know you can read so you know what it says and the fact that you refuse to admit it here just shows what your M/O really is.
I have no idea what you mean by why?
Again you ask questions without any context which I can only assume is deliberate in order to obfuscate the real issue here.
If you want to ask me questions, quote what I say and ask the question afterwards. I'm sure you know how that works on forums like this.
I see no where in the scriptures that we are told we are regenerated and in order to be regenerated we must have had to be generate at first. Do you understand that?

The weight of scripture is against you, the weight of reason is against you and the weight of church history is against you.

Colossians 2:13 HE MADE YOU ALIVE
Ezekiel 36:26-27 HE PUTS A NEW HEART
1 Peter 1:3 "he has caused us to be born again" HIM HIM HIM
James 1:18 HIS WILL

Regeneration is simply a work of the Holy Spirit in bringing us to know God. Its HIM WHO DOES IT ALL!!!!!

 

[StanJ]

It is fruitless speaking to you. At least we agree there.

After accusing me of not having the Spirit, willing ignorance to substantiate reasons for why 1 John 1:12-13 and other scriptures are out of context, repeated insinuations im wrong (which i dont mind) with no reasons for why im wrong, and the blantant arrogance and disregard for any worthy engagement of discussion my conclusion is immaturity and ignorance.

Now your probably going to do what you did last time and say you have 3 kids bring your family into it and say how YOU are better and greater than me and have more experience because you cannot defend the claims made against you.

To which i will reply sure if thats what you think then so be it.

Orthodox Christianity is Calvinism. Im glad people are not consistent Arminians otherwise you would start treading on Orthodox Catholicism. Afterall they too believe in mans freewill against mans complete deadness in sin.

If you want a church history lesson look to these great men who defend you and are Calvinists:
CH Spurgeon
Jonathan Edwards
Abraham Lincoln
George Whitfield
Martin Luther
John Knox
William Tyndale
Detriech Bonhoeffer
Karl Barth
John Calvin
John Owen
Augustine
BB Warfield
John Bunyan
Martin Llyod Jones
John Wycliffe
Charles Hodge
Herman Bavnick
Richard Baxter
Cornelius Van till
JC Ryle
Franciss Schaeufer
Greg Bahnsen
Jim Elliot
AW Pink
John Flavell
John Gill
Abraham Kuyper
John Machen
George Mueller
Richard Sibbes
William Carey
Gerhardus Vos
Matthew Henry
Octavius Winslow
The Apsotles
Jesus Christ

I guess theyre all heretics because theyre wrong. Please!

All this post does is show two things...you can put a lot of words together to say absolutely nothing and your list of Calvinists, despite your efforts to lump the apostles and Jesus Christ into them, shows just how inculcated you really are.
You still avoid the question of whether or not you ever received the baptism of the Holy Spirit?

 

[nowyouseem033]

All this post does is show two things...you can put a lot of words together to say absolutely nothing and your list of Calvinists, despite your efforts to lump the apostles and Jesus Christ into them, shows just how inculcated you really are.
You still avoid the question of whether or not you ever received the baptism of the Holy Spirit?

I thought you would say that... Ignorance at its finest! The fact is you probably dont even know your own churches history and you probably dont even care either. not to mention scripture. Sad sad.

To answer your question: post 321 i answered sure whatever you think. I know i have the spirit which dwells in me because the Spirit bears witness to the Truth of the Word of God and i wouldnt be saved without it.

Baptism of the Spirit i believe i certainly have indeed and im not discussing a second baptism of the Spirit with evidences of speaking in tongues as its irrelevant to this thread. Maybe another thread i would willingly discuss.

 

[StanJ]

The weight of scripture is against you, the weight of reason is against you and the weight of church history is against you.

Colossians 2:13 HE MADE YOU ALIVE
Ezekiel 36:26-27 HE PUTS A NEW HEART
1 Peter 1:3 "he has caused us to be born again" HIM HIM HIM
James 1:18 HIS WILL

Regeneration is simply a work of the Holy Spirit in bringing us to know God. Its HIM WHO DOES IT ALL!!!!!

How you understand and interpret scripture may be against me but not scripture itself. you apparently cannot even understand metaphor when you read it? None of the scriptures you quote here supports Sovereign election. What they actually talk about is resurrection and eternal life. Not only do you cherry-pick verses out of context but you cherry-picked sections of verses out of context just a fit your dogma. Clearly you are not able to see how all scripture comes together to show a clear picture of who God is and of what he provided for us.
You don't even understand the word regeneration, you simply parrot it along with all the other calvinist phrases you use. Someone who is never generate in the first place cannot be regenerated, which is something that a grade school grammar student would understand. If God does it all, why does he tell us to do so many things? If you are so concerned about his will then why aren't you fulfilling it?

 

[StanJ]

I thought you would say that... Ignorance at its finest! The fact is you probably dont even know your own churches history and you probably dont even care either. not to mention scripture. Sad sad.

To answer your question: post 321 i answered sure whatever you think. I know i have the spirit which dwells in me because the Spirit bears witness to the Truth of the Word of God and i wouldnt be saved without it.

Baptism of the Spirit i believe i certainly have indeed and im not discussing a second baptism of the Spirit with evidences of speaking in tongues as its irrelevant to this thread. Maybe another thread i would willingly discuss.

Your cognitive dissonance must be overwhelming?

 

[nowyouseem033]

How you understand and interpret scripture may be against me but not scripture itself. you apparently cannot even understand metaphor when you read it? None of the scriptures you quote here supports Sovereign election. What they actually talk about is resurrection and eternal life. Not only do you cherry-pick verses out of context but you cherry-picked sections of verses out of context just a fit your dogma. Clearly you are not able to see how all scripture comes together to show a clear picture of who God is and of what he provided for us.
You don't even understand the word regeneration, you simply parrot it along with all the other calvinist phrases you use. Someone who is never generate in the first place cannot be regenerated, which is something that a grade school grammar student would understand. If God does it all, why does he tell us to do so many things? If you are so concerned about his will then why aren't you fulfilling it?

Regeneration: create again

 

[StanJ]

Regeneration: create again

Create what again if we were always totally depraved?

 

[nowyouseem033]

Your cognitive dissonance must be overwhelming?

Sure StanJ. Whatever you think. Looks like im not the only one whos frustrated with you but your friend in the Textual Criticism thread is as well. Stan you really need to stop being a bigoted moron. Substantiate your claims, give reason and engage in dialogue rather than a monologue.

 

[nowyouseem033]

Create what again if we were always totally depraved?

Create in me a clean heart maybe? Because my current heart is wicked like the bible says which you disagree with. Have you ever heard of a new creature in Christ that Corinthians speaks of which you disagree with. YES A NEW CREATION IN CHRIST WHICH REPLACES THE OLD!!!

 

[StanJ]

Sure StanJ. Whatever you think. Looks like im not the only one whos frustrated with you but your friend in the Textual Criticism thread is as well. Stan you really need to stop being a bigoted moron. Substantiate your claims, give reason and engage in dialogue rather than a monologue.

Wow imagine that I disagree with two people on this whole forum! Amazing. I must really have a problem. How exactly is dispelling Calvinism and your views being a bigoted moron? Or do you just lash out like that when you can't make a point?
And why exactly would you like my post?
Everything I believe is in scripture and scripture is already substantiated. I don't have to give a reason for why I believe the scripture I just do. You're the one that has to support your calvinistic viewpoint from scripture which you can't do unless you totally misinterpret what the scripture says, which you do as has been evidenced.

 

[StanJ]

Create in me a clean heart maybe? Because my current heart is wicked like the bible says which you disagree with. Have you ever heard of a new creature in Christ that Corinthians speaks of which you disagree with. YES A NEW CREATION IN CHRIST WHICH REPLACES THE OLD!!!

Quoting Psalm 51 has nothing to do with the issue here. We're discussing New Testament covenant not Old Testament songs.
You said create again, but how can you create again if according to your Doctrine there was never anything there in the first place? Again you misinterpret the Bible because First Corinthians does not say anything about a new creature it says a new creation. Sadly all of your Doctrine is based on a misinterpretation and misunderstanding of the King James version which begs the question why do you continue to use the King James version?