Tongues Again???
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good questions Wolfwint. not all things are done in maturity or something are done out of ignorance. Screaming laughing etc.. are thing done out of order someone should be telling them to stop. BUT all so there is a cultural expression if you have been to churches in Africa, Asia, Mexico , middle east, India. They have very different services not uncommon for some to scream or dance when God has touched them. We see this in the bible Too David danced with all his might, and other examples. sometimes people react to the Power of God in away that is very awkwardly they are maybe NEW believers, or unlearned. or in error . The elders should be correcting this. That is a problem but in some places it is normal church services. NOW in the Gospel of John is where we Find that Jesus is the baptizer in the Holy Spirit. which means to be in clothed with. when did that happen ? I think it was filled on the day of Pentecost Acts 2
We are to be mature and not follow what is not appropriate but I can tell you from my many experiences preaching around the world I did not agree with but, what was the end result? I saw people saved, and healed whole families come to the Lord renounce the devil, accept Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior get water baptized and filled with the Spirit and speak in tongues. the end result was edification, exhortation, and building up. IF the gifts displayed DO NOT DO THIS then Leave. With the talk of discernment I have been waiting for one to give an example of how to discern what is right and wrong. I thought for a moment only a few in here new how and I had to seek them to get it. God doesn't do that to HIS children.
I actually agree that the abuse of some does not limit the Holy Spirit from ministering in the church. God's grace is not frustrated by man's unfaithfulness.
I agree that tongues spoken by the apostolic church was not babbling. It was human knowable languages.
Now as to praying I again believe that Jesus was not referring to babbling but to vain repetitious prayers. The kind that are written and memorized then repeated over and over again. They are vain which is empty in their meaning because they do not originate from the heart. I associate this with the "Hail Mary's and Our Fathers" of a sect of the modern church.
I do not support the contention that Hindu paganism is involved with the modern church and the speaking of tongues. No one who names the name of Christ would associate with Hinduism.
I'm not real comfortable with the idea that folks cry out to Jesus for Holy Spirit baptism. I believe the bible teaches Holy Spirit baptism is a one time event at the moment we cry out or pray to Christ for salvation. In Acts 1 there was an expectation of a filling of the Holy Spirit for power to minister for God. In Acts 2 there was a baptism of the Holy Spirit to salvation of those who believed.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
Hi VCO,
Thanks for your response.
I watched the video and was aware of the various groups mentioned. --- I actually met Tod Bentley once, so when you hear of someone you tend to listen the next time you hear his name. --- The last I had heard was that he was separating from his family, which tends to send a signal. --- I didn't know he had returned to ministry in any capacity.
--- Since I worked for many years in Interdenominational Ministry, I have been invited to and have visited many Churches, conventions and rallies.
I have been in dead Churches where they need the Spirit of God, --- and in lively ones where I would be asking the Lord, during the activities, "Is this of You?"
Here is a simple answer: --- When Jesus came to earth He glorified God the Father, --- When He was departing He said to His disciples in John 16:
12 “I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now.
13 However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come.
14 He will glorify Me,
--- Notice the pattern, "When He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth, --- He will tell you things to come, --- He will glorify Me.
So, the Holy Spirit always glorifies Jesus. --- The Holy Spirit does not glorify Himself. --- So it is 'man' that glorifies the Holy Spirit, with the desire to draw some of that glory unto themselves.
--- When men praise the messenger more than the message, --- it is not of God.
Jesus said, "The Holy Spirit will guide into all truth."
However, there had to be the genuine before there could be a counterfeit.
As the speaker mentioned the 'speaking in tongues' in Acts 2:
12 So they were all amazed and perplexed, saying to one another, “Whatever could this mean?”
13 Others mocking said, “They are full of new wine.”
14 But Peter, standing up with the eleven, raised his voice and said to them, “Men of Judea and all who dwell in Jerusalem, let this be known to you, and heed my words.
15 For these are not drunk, as you suppose, since it is only the third hour of the day.
16 But this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel:
17 ‘And it shall come to pass in the last days, says God,
That I will pour out of My Spirit on all flesh;
Proverb 20:1 "Wine is a mocker, strong drink is a brawler,
And whoever is led astray by it is not wise."
--- Wine can make people happy and foolish --- and strong drink makes people angry and aggresive.
Jesus said, "You don't put new wine in old bottles," ---which referred to the filling of the Holy Spirit.
Consider that scene on the day of Pentecost, --- These men who had been keeping a low profile since the crucifixion and who were told to wait in Jerusalem till they were 'endued with power from on High,' --- After Christ ascended there were perhaps few smiles for the next ten days. --- Finally the Day came and they were filled, --- They were happy and joyful and began praising the Lord no doubt in their own language, and miraculously in the language of the people from all the countries represented.
--- They were no doubt acting foolish in the sight of men and had the effects of drinking new wine.
But the end result of Peter preaching (the first time he ever preached or quoted Scripture), --- there were some three thousand saved.
--- Here is another way you can distinguish the genuine, --- "By their fruits you shall know them."
Other places the Apostles went they had meetings where people were filled with the Spirit and spoke in tongues.
--- Jesus said the Apostles would do the same works that He did. --- And Peter in Acts 5:
14 And believers were increasingly added to the Lord, multitudes of both men and women,
15 so that they brought the sick out into the streets and laid them on beds and couches, that at least the shadow of Peter passing by might fall on some of them.
16 Also a multitude gathered from the surrounding cities to Jerusalem, bringing sick people and those who were tormented by unclean spirits, and they were all healed.
--- Yes, there is the genuine, and it is still going on today.
Thanks for your response.
I watched the video and was aware of the various groups mentioned. --- I actually met Tod Bentley once, so when you hear of someone you tend to listen the next time you hear his name. --- The last I had heard was that he was separating from his family, which tends to send a signal. --- I didn't know he had returned to ministry in any capacity.
--- Since I worked for many years in Interdenominational Ministry, I have been invited to and have visited many Churches, conventions and rallies.
I have been in dead Churches where they need the Spirit of God, --- and in lively ones where I would be asking the Lord, during the activities, "Is this of You?"
Here is a simple answer: --- When Jesus came to earth He glorified God the Father, --- When He was departing He said to His disciples in John 16:
12 “I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now.
13 However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come.
14 He will glorify Me,
--- Notice the pattern, "When He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth, --- He will tell you things to come, --- He will glorify Me.
So, the Holy Spirit always glorifies Jesus. --- The Holy Spirit does not glorify Himself. --- So it is 'man' that glorifies the Holy Spirit, with the desire to draw some of that glory unto themselves.
--- When men praise the messenger more than the message, --- it is not of God.
Jesus said, "The Holy Spirit will guide into all truth."
However, there had to be the genuine before there could be a counterfeit.
As the speaker mentioned the 'speaking in tongues' in Acts 2:
12 So they were all amazed and perplexed, saying to one another, “Whatever could this mean?”
13 Others mocking said, “They are full of new wine.”
14 But Peter, standing up with the eleven, raised his voice and said to them, “Men of Judea and all who dwell in Jerusalem, let this be known to you, and heed my words.
15 For these are not drunk, as you suppose, since it is only the third hour of the day.
16 But this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel:
17 ‘And it shall come to pass in the last days, says God,
That I will pour out of My Spirit on all flesh;
Proverb 20:1 "Wine is a mocker, strong drink is a brawler,
And whoever is led astray by it is not wise."
--- Wine can make people happy and foolish --- and strong drink makes people angry and aggresive.
Jesus said, "You don't put new wine in old bottles," ---which referred to the filling of the Holy Spirit.
Consider that scene on the day of Pentecost, --- These men who had been keeping a low profile since the crucifixion and who were told to wait in Jerusalem till they were 'endued with power from on High,' --- After Christ ascended there were perhaps few smiles for the next ten days. --- Finally the Day came and they were filled, --- They were happy and joyful and began praising the Lord no doubt in their own language, and miraculously in the language of the people from all the countries represented.
--- They were no doubt acting foolish in the sight of men and had the effects of drinking new wine.
But the end result of Peter preaching (the first time he ever preached or quoted Scripture), --- there were some three thousand saved.
--- Here is another way you can distinguish the genuine, --- "By their fruits you shall know them."
Other places the Apostles went they had meetings where people were filled with the Spirit and spoke in tongues.
--- Jesus said the Apostles would do the same works that He did. --- And Peter in Acts 5:
14 And believers were increasingly added to the Lord, multitudes of both men and women,
15 so that they brought the sick out into the streets and laid them on beds and couches, that at least the shadow of Peter passing by might fall on some of them.
16 Also a multitude gathered from the surrounding cities to Jerusalem, bringing sick people and those who were tormented by unclean spirits, and they were all healed.
--- Yes, there is the genuine, and it is still going on today.
the cry out to Jesus comment was about prayer not to actually Cry out in aloud voice figuratively but in prayer thank you for pointing that out.
I think this has much [FONT=Roboto, arial, sans-serif]allegorizing of the later part . the application doesn't line up with authorial intent [/FONT]
Well that certainly helps clarify your intent but why cry out for Holy Spirit baptism? I have cried out many times for help, strength, wisdom and direction but I can't say I've ever sought Holy Spirit baptism in that fashion so I'm still somewhat confused by the concept. Are you equating Holy Spirit baptism with filling of the Holy Spirit? That would make more sense to me. Perhaps is just a matter of semantics.
Mt 10:19 But when they deliver you up, take no thought how or what ye shall speak: for it shall be given you in that same hour what ye shall speak.
Strengthening of the Holy Spirit so that we might serve and glorify God.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
In Luke we read that Jesus asked if a father would not give his son a stone, sperpent, or scorpion if he asked for bread, a fish or an egg, how much more shall your Father give the Holy Ghost to them who ask him?
Peter quoted John on being baptized with the Holy Ghost in Acts 11 to refer to the events that happened in Cornelius' house in Acts 10. He said that they received the Holy Ghost "just as we have". In Acts 2, they were 'filled' with the Holy Ghost.
Holy Spirit is given to everyone the moment they receive Christ as Savior. How much more than eternal life can we receive?
Again at salvation. Acts 2:41 Acts 2:4 filling. Acts 1:8 endowed with power.
Cornelius Holy Spirit baptized after confession of faith. Filled as a testimony to the Jews present as you duly recite and was reported back to the Jews at Jerusalem.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
notuptome,
Paul tells the Ephesians to be filled with the Spirit. They were already Christians, weren't they?
Paul tells the Ephesians to be filled with the Spirit. They were already Christians, weren't they?
That post #1035, was made by somebody else, to deliberately counterfeit one of my VCO posts.
What do you think filled with the Spirit is? It simply means, totally yeilding to the Spirit's guidance. I did that every single time I preached a sermon, and many other times.
Can't be a Christian unless you have the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of Christ.. Can't be filled with something a person does not have.
That would be lie saying work for your salvation rather than work out the salvation that comes by a work of Christ working in us to both will and do His good pleasure. We can't work for something that he gives us as a free gift.Can we?
Doing a work of the flesh as evidence of the Holy Spirit only show a person has "no assurance" coming from the Holy Spirit, as His Spirit witnesses to our spirit.
Does that witness commands to go do a work to prove we do have the Spirit of Christ or would that make the preaching of the gospel (the hearing of faith) without effect?
Romans 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God.
It would seem the Spirit bears witness, and you say a work of the flesh is the true witness? What happened to faith, did it disappear when a person walks by sight after some work they could perform?
Romans 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be "that the Spirit of God dwell in you". Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
Your question displays confusion. James said, "I will show you my faith by my works."
Yes he did show the faith of Christ working in James , by the works of Christ, and not of his own self.. It is Christ who does work in us according to His faith to both will and do His good pleasure.
If the work of faith could of been of his own self he would have reason to boast but not before God. We are commanded not to have the faith of Christ as the work of Christ in respect to our own selves that would be to blaphem the Holy name by which we are called heavenward. .
Jam 2:1 My brethren, have not the "faith of" our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory, with respect of persons.
Will you obey the commandment? His faith is not without works. or face the other alternative?
Jam 2:7 Do not they blaspheme that worthy name by the which ye are called?
To blaspheme a person takes credit for the work of another.
Again can we have the work of Christ's faith in respect to our own-self or a Pastor, a Pope or any man?.
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