Tongues Again???
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L
hmmmm
really? 88 is not a Christian?
well now, with the things YOU say, I could say YOU are not a Christian
but I believe you are...misguided, but nonetheless
MacArthur is well known for his outrageous comments and he is going to get worse because of his railings against the Holy Spirit
those who take on the Spirit of God are not going to end well...the Holy Spirit is our teacher among many other things...and this teaching that speaking in tongues is of the devil..is actually what is of the devil
God is Spirit...He is supernatural...the new birth is supernatural...life IN Christ is supernatural
do you deny these things^^^^^are true?
what is your point?
really? 88 is not a Christian?
well now, with the things YOU say, I could say YOU are not a Christian
but I believe you are...misguided, but nonetheless
MacArthur is well known for his outrageous comments and he is going to get worse because of his railings against the Holy Spirit
those who take on the Spirit of God are not going to end well...the Holy Spirit is our teacher among many other things...and this teaching that speaking in tongues is of the devil..is actually what is of the devil
God is Spirit...He is supernatural...the new birth is supernatural...life IN Christ is supernatural
do you deny these things^^^^^are true?
what is your point?
Careful, we may even agree again, if you mean by that, that genuine FAITH will produce an ongoing desire to do good works, and a walk of obedience? If that is what you meant, then AMEN Brother.
John 14:15 (ESV)
[SUP]15 [/SUP] “If you love me, you will keep my commandments.
Notice, LOVING HIM, comes first.
And where does that LOVE come from?
Romans 5:5 (ESV)
[SUP]5 [/SUP] and hope does not put us to shame, because God’s love has been poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit who has been given to us.
I believe it spawns out of God’s love that has been poured into our hearts, which happened the moment we genuinely believed.
John 14:15 (ESV)
[SUP]15 [/SUP] “If you love me, you will keep my commandments.
Notice, LOVING HIM, comes first.
And where does that LOVE come from?
Romans 5:5 (ESV)
[SUP]5 [/SUP] and hope does not put us to shame, because God’s love has been poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit who has been given to us.
I believe it spawns out of God’s love that has been poured into our hearts, which happened the moment we genuinely believed.
So one's assessment of a John MacArthur sermon is an indication of their salvation?
John MacArthur (whose doctorates are honorary, btw) said some rather extreme things during the conference, but later toned it down and got slightly diplomatic. He had other Reformed folks disagreeing with some of the conference.
John MacArthur (whose doctorates are honorary, btw) said some rather extreme things during the conference, but later toned it down and got slightly diplomatic. He had other Reformed folks disagreeing with some of the conference.
Yes he does but the baptism of the Holy Spirit is an immersion from which we do not emerge. It is likened to a vessel, a boat, that has sunk in the ocean. It is immersed and does not emerge again. This represents our salvation in that we can never be unsaved.
Being filled with the Holy Spirit has to do with sanctification. It is walking in obedience to the Lord and separating from worldliness unto holiness and purity.
Holy Spirit baptism is the quickening of Ephesians 1. It is the washing of regeneration of Titus 3:5. It is the baptism that only Christ can administer. It is eternal and irrevocable. It is the foundation of our faith and the confidence of our testimony for Christ. The witness of the Holy Spirit with our spirit is how we know we have eternal life.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
Being filled with the Holy Spirit has to do with sanctification. It is walking in obedience to the Lord and separating from worldliness unto holiness and purity.
Holy Spirit baptism is the quickening of Ephesians 1. It is the washing of regeneration of Titus 3:5. It is the baptism that only Christ can administer. It is eternal and irrevocable. It is the foundation of our faith and the confidence of our testimony for Christ. The witness of the Holy Spirit with our spirit is how we know we have eternal life.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
VCO, I agree with you that a Christian with genuine faith should desire to do good works. God works in us to do according to His good pleasure.
There are also those who seek to be justified by their works. Paul addressed the problem of justification by works. But those who have faith should have works. Doing good works, including miracles, is not a bad thing.
There are also those who seek to be justified by their works. Paul addressed the problem of justification by works. But those who have faith should have works. Doing good works, including miracles, is not a bad thing.
Now I'm confused. This was to me from VCO after my post #1036. I didn't post any video in VCO's name.
What is going on?
and I have to add because this didn't come out like I thought it would.
The post VCO to me said to watch the video...that I was wrong. CS1 said that had nothing to do with his post.
What happened?
What is going on?
and I have to add because this didn't come out like I thought it would.
The post VCO to me said to watch the video...that I was wrong. CS1 said that had nothing to do with his post.
What happened?
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Hi VCO,
Quote from your response: Matthew 24:24 (ESV)
24 For false christs and false prophets will arise and perform great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if possible, even the elect.
2 Thessalonians 2:8-9 (ASV)
8 And then shall be revealed the lawless one, whom the Lord Jesus shall slay with the breath of his mouth, and bring to nought by the manifestation of his coming;
9 even he, whose coming is according to the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
Response: --- Part of the signs of being in the last days is the increase in wickedness and the demonic spirits active in sensual immorality and the drug culture, that often leads to suicide by overdosing or despairing of life.
--- Jesus said in John 10:
10 The thief does not come except to steal, and to kill, and to destroy. I have come that they may have life, and that they may have it more abundantly.
I agree with you that it is not right to seek to speak in tongues, because here is where the danger lies. --- If you have groups that claim to be Christians, but have one foot in the world, they may want to have this experience, but in their desire, they can open themselves to an evil spirit that can give them a language to speak, --- the devil can duplicate these experiences and the person thinks they are speaking in a spiritual language, but it is of the devil.
Paul lists the Spiritual gifts in 1 Corinthians 12, and the last verse says:
31 "But earnestly desire the best gifts. And yet I show you a more excellent way."
--- Which is the way of Love in 13, which is the identification of true Christians, "If they have love one for another."
Then chapter 14 starts with the acknowledgment of love:
1 "Pursue love, and desire spiritual gifts, but especially that you may prophesy."
--- In the OT Prophecy meant 'foretelling the future' --- and many prophecies referred to the coming of Christ. --- So in the NT, the gift of prophecy is 'telling forth' the Gospel message about Jesus Christ, so very simply it means 'inspired preaching.'
2 For he who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God, for no one understands him; however, in the spirit he speaks mysteries.
3 But he who prophesies speaks edification and exhortation and comfort to men.
4 He who speaks in a tongue edifies himself, but he who prophesies edifies the church.
5 I wish you all spoke with tongues, but even more that you prophesied;
And the last verses in 1 Corinthians 14:
39 Therefore, brethren, desire earnestly to prophesy, and do not forbid to speak with tongues.
40 Let all things be done decently and in order.
--- More later on the question, "Did Jesus speak in an unknown language."
Quote from your response: Matthew 24:24 (ESV)
24 For false christs and false prophets will arise and perform great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if possible, even the elect.
2 Thessalonians 2:8-9 (ASV)
8 And then shall be revealed the lawless one, whom the Lord Jesus shall slay with the breath of his mouth, and bring to nought by the manifestation of his coming;
9 even he, whose coming is according to the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
Response: --- Part of the signs of being in the last days is the increase in wickedness and the demonic spirits active in sensual immorality and the drug culture, that often leads to suicide by overdosing or despairing of life.
--- Jesus said in John 10:
10 The thief does not come except to steal, and to kill, and to destroy. I have come that they may have life, and that they may have it more abundantly.
I agree with you that it is not right to seek to speak in tongues, because here is where the danger lies. --- If you have groups that claim to be Christians, but have one foot in the world, they may want to have this experience, but in their desire, they can open themselves to an evil spirit that can give them a language to speak, --- the devil can duplicate these experiences and the person thinks they are speaking in a spiritual language, but it is of the devil.
Paul lists the Spiritual gifts in 1 Corinthians 12, and the last verse says:
31 "But earnestly desire the best gifts. And yet I show you a more excellent way."
--- Which is the way of Love in 13, which is the identification of true Christians, "If they have love one for another."
Then chapter 14 starts with the acknowledgment of love:
1 "Pursue love, and desire spiritual gifts, but especially that you may prophesy."
--- In the OT Prophecy meant 'foretelling the future' --- and many prophecies referred to the coming of Christ. --- So in the NT, the gift of prophecy is 'telling forth' the Gospel message about Jesus Christ, so very simply it means 'inspired preaching.'
2 For he who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God, for no one understands him; however, in the spirit he speaks mysteries.
3 But he who prophesies speaks edification and exhortation and comfort to men.
4 He who speaks in a tongue edifies himself, but he who prophesies edifies the church.
5 I wish you all spoke with tongues, but even more that you prophesied;
And the last verses in 1 Corinthians 14:
39 Therefore, brethren, desire earnestly to prophesy, and do not forbid to speak with tongues.
40 Let all things be done decently and in order.
--- More later on the question, "Did Jesus speak in an unknown language."
That we can agree on, but what we will disagree on, is the the definition of what constitutes a genuine miracle.
If they truly had the sign of miracles that the Apostles had, they could walk into any and every Hospital in the land and EMPTY EVERY BED.
Acts 5:15-16 (NIV)
[SUP]15 [/SUP] As a result, people brought the sick into the streets and laid them on beds and mats so that at least Peter's shadow might fall on some of them as he passed by.
[SUP]16 [/SUP] Crowds gathered also from the towns around Jerusalem, bringing their sick and those tormented by evil spirits, and all of them were healed.
I still believe that ANYTHING less than what the Apostles did, is a counterfeit.
If they truly had the sign of miracles that the Apostles had, they could walk into any and every Hospital in the land and EMPTY EVERY BED.
Acts 5:15-16 (NIV)
[SUP]15 [/SUP] As a result, people brought the sick into the streets and laid them on beds and mats so that at least Peter's shadow might fall on some of them as he passed by.
[SUP]16 [/SUP] Crowds gathered also from the towns around Jerusalem, bringing their sick and those tormented by evil spirits, and all of them were healed.
I still believe that ANYTHING less than what the Apostles did, is a counterfeit.
When Peter healed just one man at the Gate Beautiful. That was still a supernatural work of God, even though he did not heal a thousand.
When Jesus went to a pool and healed just one lame man, that was still a healing.
In Acts, the apostles performed signs and wonders. Two of them were arrested and beaten. So they prayed that God would stretch out His hand to heal and to do signs and wonders for the sake of Jesus. Then there were occasions where all who were brought to them and people wanted Peter's shadow to touch them so that they might be healed.
God used Paul to heal dysentery once. That was still a healing. If God heals someone with diarrhea or a headache, we should be appreciative for the healing, and not say, "What! That was just diarrhea. If that was a real healing then 10,000 people with missing arms would be healed."
When Jesus went to a pool and healed just one lame man, that was still a healing.
In Acts, the apostles performed signs and wonders. Two of them were arrested and beaten. So they prayed that God would stretch out His hand to heal and to do signs and wonders for the sake of Jesus. Then there were occasions where all who were brought to them and people wanted Peter's shadow to touch them so that they might be healed.
God used Paul to heal dysentery once. That was still a healing. If God heals someone with diarrhea or a headache, we should be appreciative for the healing, and not say, "What! That was just diarrhea. If that was a real healing then 10,000 people with missing arms would be healed."
If you read Luke's writings, being filled with the Spirit is related to prophesying, speaking in tongues, and doing supernatural acts. Zecharias is filled with the Spirit when he prophesied. Stephen is full of the Holy Ghost and does miracles. Paul is full of the Holy Ghost when he declares that Elymas will be blind. The way Luke writes about 'receiving' the Spirit also seems to refer to the same sort of thing.
Would we say that the Samaritan Christians who believed the Gospel and were baptized were not saved in Acts 8 before the apostles came? I wouldn't say that. But they received the Spirit through the laying on of the apostles hands. I believe this was referring to the work of the Spirit referred to in Acts 2.
Paul generally refers to the Spirit in reference to issues related to salvation and sanctification. He writes of the seal of the Spirit, the love of God being shed abroad in our hearts, by the Holy Ghost.
Some evangelicals ignore these distinctions. Acts 8 should cause us to reconsider. Would the Samaritans be unsaved even if they had believed and accepted the Gospel. The typical Pentecostal understanding is that all believers receive the Spirit at salvation in the way Paul typically refers to it. But there is also empowerment for service. John the baptist spoke of being baptized with the Holy Spirit.
But what of Paul's reference to being filled with the Spirit? We see this kind of terminology in Luke's writings, where he uses it in connection with empowerment and with the Spirit enabling someone to speak supernaturally (e.g. prophesy.) Where does Paul use the phrase to refer to sanctification?
Paul says to be filled with the Spirit and to speak to yourselves with psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs. Luke tells of Zecharias being filled with the Spirit. Prophecies came out of his mouth when this happened. Paul was full of the Holy Ghost and declared that Elymas would be blind and it happen. Paul said to be filled with the Spirit and speak to yourselves with psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs. This seems similar to the way Luke uses the terminology.
Paul makes other references to the Spirit. He says if you are led by the Spirit, you will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh. That sounds like a reference to the spirit in relation to sanctification... or at least righteous living if sanctification is not the right category. A discussion on the definition of sanctification could go on another thread.
Would we say that the Samaritan Christians who believed the Gospel and were baptized were not saved in Acts 8 before the apostles came? I wouldn't say that. But they received the Spirit through the laying on of the apostles hands. I believe this was referring to the work of the Spirit referred to in Acts 2.
Paul generally refers to the Spirit in reference to issues related to salvation and sanctification. He writes of the seal of the Spirit, the love of God being shed abroad in our hearts, by the Holy Ghost.
Some evangelicals ignore these distinctions. Acts 8 should cause us to reconsider. Would the Samaritans be unsaved even if they had believed and accepted the Gospel. The typical Pentecostal understanding is that all believers receive the Spirit at salvation in the way Paul typically refers to it. But there is also empowerment for service. John the baptist spoke of being baptized with the Holy Spirit.
But what of Paul's reference to being filled with the Spirit? We see this kind of terminology in Luke's writings, where he uses it in connection with empowerment and with the Spirit enabling someone to speak supernaturally (e.g. prophesy.) Where does Paul use the phrase to refer to sanctification?
Paul says to be filled with the Spirit and to speak to yourselves with psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs. Luke tells of Zecharias being filled with the Spirit. Prophecies came out of his mouth when this happened. Paul was full of the Holy Ghost and declared that Elymas would be blind and it happen. Paul said to be filled with the Spirit and speak to yourselves with psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs. This seems similar to the way Luke uses the terminology.
Paul makes other references to the Spirit. He says if you are led by the Spirit, you will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh. That sounds like a reference to the spirit in relation to sanctification... or at least righteous living if sanctification is not the right category. A discussion on the definition of sanctification could go on another thread.
Mark 15:34 (RSV)
[SUP]34 [/SUP] And at the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, "E'lo-i, E'lo-i, la'ma sabach-tha'ni?" which means, "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?"
If you are going to bring up what Jesus said from the Cross, and claim it was Tongues, you would be wrong. Joseph was a well established Carpenter, which means his income was above average. PLUS he inherited a great deal from his father. PLUS because women were not allowed to inherit property at the time when Jesus was growing up; therefore Joseph inherited a large portion, if not all of the property of Heli, Mary's father; giving Joseph the TITLE Son of Heli, which DOES NOT MEAN OFFSPRING, but rather it a Title that designates who will inherit the property of Heli. THAT MEANS, Joseph could afford the best education for Jesus, and unless the family was very poor, Aramaic was ONE of the languages that most Jews studied, and frequently Greek too. Therefore there is very high degree of probability that Jesus was fluent in Aramaic a large portion of the population spoke , Greek which many people in Israel also spoke, and the Hebrew language the language of the Temple, and which he grew up with. Thus being educated in all three languages was common place among the middle class and wealthy. What biblical evidence is there that Jesus had that kind of education?:
That is a STRONG indication that Jesus was also educated in Aramaic.
John 20:16 (ESV)
[SUP]16 [/SUP] Jesus said to her, “Mary.” She turned and said to him in Aramaic, “Rabboni!” (which means Teacher).
Matthew 26:55-56 (ESV)
[SUP]55 [/SUP] At that hour Jesus said to the crowds, “Have you come out as against a robber, with swords and clubs to capture me? Day after day I sat in the temple teaching, and you did not seize me.
[SUP]56 [/SUP] But all this has taken place that the Scriptures of the prophets might be fulfilled.” Then all the disciples left him and fled.
Luke 2:41-47 (NRSV)
[SUP]41 [/SUP] Now every year his parents went to Jerusalem for the festival of the Passover.
[SUP]42 [/SUP] And when he was twelve years old, they went up as usual for the festival.
[SUP]43 [/SUP] When the festival was ended and they started to return, the boy Jesus stayed behind in Jerusalem, but his parents did not know it.
[SUP]44 [/SUP] Assuming that he was in the group of travelers, they went a day's journey. Then they started to look for him among their relatives and friends.
[SUP]45 [/SUP] When they did not find him, they returned to Jerusalem to search for him.
[SUP]46 [/SUP] After three days they found him in the temple, sitting among the teachers, listening to them and asking them questions.
[SUP]47 [/SUP] And all who heard him were amazed at his understanding and his answers.
[SUP]34 [/SUP] And at the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, "E'lo-i, E'lo-i, la'ma sabach-tha'ni?" which means, "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?"
If you are going to bring up what Jesus said from the Cross, and claim it was Tongues, you would be wrong. Joseph was a well established Carpenter, which means his income was above average. PLUS he inherited a great deal from his father. PLUS because women were not allowed to inherit property at the time when Jesus was growing up; therefore Joseph inherited a large portion, if not all of the property of Heli, Mary's father; giving Joseph the TITLE Son of Heli, which DOES NOT MEAN OFFSPRING, but rather it a Title that designates who will inherit the property of Heli. THAT MEANS, Joseph could afford the best education for Jesus, and unless the family was very poor, Aramaic was ONE of the languages that most Jews studied, and frequently Greek too. Therefore there is very high degree of probability that Jesus was fluent in Aramaic a large portion of the population spoke , Greek which many people in Israel also spoke, and the Hebrew language the language of the Temple, and which he grew up with. Thus being educated in all three languages was common place among the middle class and wealthy. What biblical evidence is there that Jesus had that kind of education?:
That is a STRONG indication that Jesus was also educated in Aramaic.
John 20:16 (ESV)
[SUP]16 [/SUP] Jesus said to her, “Mary.” She turned and said to him in Aramaic, “Rabboni!” (which means Teacher).
Matthew 26:55-56 (ESV)
[SUP]55 [/SUP] At that hour Jesus said to the crowds, “Have you come out as against a robber, with swords and clubs to capture me? Day after day I sat in the temple teaching, and you did not seize me.
[SUP]56 [/SUP] But all this has taken place that the Scriptures of the prophets might be fulfilled.” Then all the disciples left him and fled.
Luke 2:41-47 (NRSV)
[SUP]41 [/SUP] Now every year his parents went to Jerusalem for the festival of the Passover.
[SUP]42 [/SUP] And when he was twelve years old, they went up as usual for the festival.
[SUP]43 [/SUP] When the festival was ended and they started to return, the boy Jesus stayed behind in Jerusalem, but his parents did not know it.
[SUP]44 [/SUP] Assuming that he was in the group of travelers, they went a day's journey. Then they started to look for him among their relatives and friends.
[SUP]45 [/SUP] When they did not find him, they returned to Jerusalem to search for him.
[SUP]46 [/SUP] After three days they found him in the temple, sitting among the teachers, listening to them and asking them questions.
[SUP]47 [/SUP] And all who heard him were amazed at his understanding and his answers.
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Correction, using the term "yourselves" only confuses the original intent of the verse:
Ephesians 5:18-19 (ASV)
[SUP]18 [/SUP] And be not drunken with wine, wherein is riot, but be filled with the Spirit;
[SUP]19 [/SUP] speaking one to another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody with your heart to the Lord;
Ephesians 5:18-19 (ESV)
[SUP]18 [/SUP] And do not get drunk with wine, for that is debauchery, but be filled with the Spirit,
[SUP]19 [/SUP] addressing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody to the Lord with your heart,
Ephesians 5:18-19 (HCSB)
[SUP]18 [/SUP] And don’t get drunk with wine, which ⌊leads to⌋ reckless actions, but be filled by the Spirit:
[SUP]19 [/SUP] speaking to one another in psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs, singing and making music from your heart to the Lord,
Ephesians 5:18-19 (NKJV)
[SUP]18 [/SUP] And do not be drunk with wine, in which is dissipation; but be filled with the Spirit,
[SUP]19 [/SUP] speaking to one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord,
Ephesians 5:18-19 (NIV)
[SUP]18 [/SUP] Do not get drunk on wine, which leads to debauchery. Instead, be filled with the Spirit.
[SUP]19 [/SUP] Speak to one another with psalms, hymns and spiritual songs. Sing and make music in your heart to the Lord,
Definition of Filled with the Spirit:
The other thing that I noticed, is that you have some false beliefs about what Evangelicals teach and Believe.
For example, we believe Salvation happened the moment we genuinely believed. That Faith is genuine, only if it produces an ongoing lifestyle of walking in obedience. AND that obedience includes confessing each new sin as we discover them. The seal of the Holy Spirit is our guarantee that HE will NEVER LEAVE US, nor will we face spiritual harm, because we ARE SAVED. Thus we believe we cannot lose our Salvation, because HE is the one who is holding on to our Salvation. Those that do appear to have fallen away only prove they never genuinely believed in the first place. Sanctification is the maturing of our human spirit and the step by step perfecting of our WALKING in the likeness of Christ. We were Sealed from facing spiritual harm, while the 144,000 Jews were Sealed from facing physical harm.
Now the sentence in your post that I changed to purple, from my experience is not the Typical Pentecostal position. You received some very good teaching there. That is exactly what we believe.
Hi VCO,
Quote: That we can agree on, but what we will disagree on, is the the definition of what constitutes a genuine miracle.
If they truly had the sign of miracles that the Apostles had, they could walk into any and every Hospital in the land and EMPTY EVERY BED.
Response: --- There is a pattern in healing as is outlined in James 5:
14 Is anyone among you sick? Let him call for the elders of the church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord.
15 And the prayer of faith will save the sick, and the Lord will raise him up. And if he has committed sins, he will be forgiven.
Actually the sick person is to call the elders, or genuine believers that he trusts to come and pray for him. --- The request for the prayer of faith is initiated by the sick person. --- So unbelievers would not be healed unless God chose to save and heal them, with the end result that they may believe.
We can pray for anyone for their salvation and healing, but the answer comes from God.
The people that came to Peter came because they had faith in God to be healed.
What was Jesus' experience? --- It says in Matthew 9:
20 And suddenly, a woman who had a flow of blood for twelve years came from behind and touched the hem of His garment.
21 For she said to herself, “If only I may touch His garment, I shall be made well.”
22 But Jesus turned around, and when He saw her He said, “Be of good cheer, daughter; your faith has made you well.” And the woman was made well from that hour.
27 When Jesus departed from there, two blind men followed Him, crying out and saying, “Son of David, have mercy on us!”
28 And when He had come into the house, the blind men came to Him. And Jesus said to them, “Do you believe that I am able to do this?”
They said to Him, “Yes, Lord.”
29 Then He touched their eyes, saying, “According to your faith let it be to you.”
30 And their eyes were opened.
And in another place it says in Matthew 13:
57 But Jesus said to them, “A prophet is not without honor except in his own country and in his own house.”
58 Now He did not do many mighty works there because of their unbelief.
Another note from James 5:15, "And the prayer of faith will save the sick, and the Lord will raise him up." --- So healing is not always instantly, but they will recover from their illness. --- We have prayed for many and they have recovered, so we keep praying.
A lot of sickness is demonic attack, so the person needs to be delivered and there is an example in Matthew 17:
14 And when they had come to the multitude, a man came to Him, kneeling down to Him and saying,
15 “Lord, have mercy on my son, for he is an epileptic and suffers severely; for he often falls into the fire and often into the water.
16 So I brought him to Your disciples, but they could not cure him.”
17 Then Jesus answered and said, "Bring him here to Me.”
18 And Jesus rebuked the demon, and it came out of him; and the child was cured from that very hour.
--- Notice that in this case the 'deliverance' was the 'healing,' "The child was cured from that very hour."
The disciples may have been praying for the boy's healing, but a demon has to be identified and commanded to leave in Jesus' name. --- We have this authority today and in our interdenominational ministry we dealt with Alcoholics and drug Addicts, and I have seen many of them delivered.
--- There are many Christians who are attacked or tormented by evil spirits and need deliverance, --- which is a subject not well undertood.
Quote: That we can agree on, but what we will disagree on, is the the definition of what constitutes a genuine miracle.
If they truly had the sign of miracles that the Apostles had, they could walk into any and every Hospital in the land and EMPTY EVERY BED.
Response: --- There is a pattern in healing as is outlined in James 5:
14 Is anyone among you sick? Let him call for the elders of the church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord.
15 And the prayer of faith will save the sick, and the Lord will raise him up. And if he has committed sins, he will be forgiven.
Actually the sick person is to call the elders, or genuine believers that he trusts to come and pray for him. --- The request for the prayer of faith is initiated by the sick person. --- So unbelievers would not be healed unless God chose to save and heal them, with the end result that they may believe.
We can pray for anyone for their salvation and healing, but the answer comes from God.
The people that came to Peter came because they had faith in God to be healed.
What was Jesus' experience? --- It says in Matthew 9:
20 And suddenly, a woman who had a flow of blood for twelve years came from behind and touched the hem of His garment.
21 For she said to herself, “If only I may touch His garment, I shall be made well.”
22 But Jesus turned around, and when He saw her He said, “Be of good cheer, daughter; your faith has made you well.” And the woman was made well from that hour.
27 When Jesus departed from there, two blind men followed Him, crying out and saying, “Son of David, have mercy on us!”
28 And when He had come into the house, the blind men came to Him. And Jesus said to them, “Do you believe that I am able to do this?”
They said to Him, “Yes, Lord.”
29 Then He touched their eyes, saying, “According to your faith let it be to you.”
30 And their eyes were opened.
And in another place it says in Matthew 13:
57 But Jesus said to them, “A prophet is not without honor except in his own country and in his own house.”
58 Now He did not do many mighty works there because of their unbelief.
Another note from James 5:15, "And the prayer of faith will save the sick, and the Lord will raise him up." --- So healing is not always instantly, but they will recover from their illness. --- We have prayed for many and they have recovered, so we keep praying.
A lot of sickness is demonic attack, so the person needs to be delivered and there is an example in Matthew 17:
14 And when they had come to the multitude, a man came to Him, kneeling down to Him and saying,
15 “Lord, have mercy on my son, for he is an epileptic and suffers severely; for he often falls into the fire and often into the water.
16 So I brought him to Your disciples, but they could not cure him.”
17 Then Jesus answered and said, "Bring him here to Me.”
18 And Jesus rebuked the demon, and it came out of him; and the child was cured from that very hour.
--- Notice that in this case the 'deliverance' was the 'healing,' "The child was cured from that very hour."
The disciples may have been praying for the boy's healing, but a demon has to be identified and commanded to leave in Jesus' name. --- We have this authority today and in our interdenominational ministry we dealt with Alcoholics and drug Addicts, and I have seen many of them delivered.
--- There are many Christians who are attacked or tormented by evil spirits and need deliverance, --- which is a subject not well undertood.
Back up a minute. What does all this have to do with what we are talking about. When I post about spiritual gifts, you write (often grammatically unclear) sentences about works as a sign to show that one has the Spirit.
I Corinthians 12 talks about charismata, spiritual gifts. Romans 12 uses the term as well. Charismata is related to the word for grace. Romans 12 teaches that charismata are given according to the grace (charis) given unto us.
The spiritual gifts in I Corinthians 12 are also called manifestations of the Spirit. In the context of the scripture, we are talking about something that comes from the Spirit of God, not from the individual. Why would you assume that a discussion about Biblical spiritual gifts is about individuals doing works that are 'of themselves' when the passage is about manifestations of the Spirit?
No one you use the word 'blaspheme' in a weird way. Apparently, you do not know what it means, either in English or the Greek word translated 'blasphemy.' In the Bible, it refers to speaking evil of, villifying, speaking ill of a thing or an individual (including God, or the Spirit of God.)
If I painted a painting and you said, "I painted that", that would be lying, not blaspheming.
Word salad. It's like you are talking religious phrases, throwing them into a can, and mixing them up to make a sentence. What do you mean by 'have the work of Christ's faith in respect to our own-self...'? I can guess at what you mean. It looks like you are making a sentence. I understand the words in the sentence, but I don't really know what you mean, and I doubt anyone else does. If you aren't a native speaker, I understand and sympathize. I have the same problem in Indonesian sometimes. But whatever you are trying to say doesn't translate well.
I suspect you would benefit from other translations of verses that contain the phrase 'respecter of persons.'
I Corinthians 12 talks about charismata, spiritual gifts. Romans 12 uses the term as well. Charismata is related to the word for grace. Romans 12 teaches that charismata are given according to the grace (charis) given unto us.
The spiritual gifts in I Corinthians 12 are also called manifestations of the Spirit. In the context of the scripture, we are talking about something that comes from the Spirit of God, not from the individual. Why would you assume that a discussion about Biblical spiritual gifts is about individuals doing works that are 'of themselves' when the passage is about manifestations of the Spirit?
No one you use the word 'blaspheme' in a weird way. Apparently, you do not know what it means, either in English or the Greek word translated 'blasphemy.' In the Bible, it refers to speaking evil of, villifying, speaking ill of a thing or an individual (including God, or the Spirit of God.)
If I painted a painting and you said, "I painted that", that would be lying, not blaspheming.
Word salad. It's like you are talking religious phrases, throwing them into a can, and mixing them up to make a sentence. What do you mean by 'have the work of Christ's faith in respect to our own-self...'? I can guess at what you mean. It looks like you are making a sentence. I understand the words in the sentence, but I don't really know what you mean, and I doubt anyone else does. If you aren't a native speaker, I understand and sympathize. I have the same problem in Indonesian sometimes. But whatever you are trying to say doesn't translate well.
I suspect you would benefit from other translations of verses that contain the phrase 'respecter of persons.'
VCO,
The Assemblies of God is the biggest Pentecostal denomination worldwide. If you read sermons or teachings from A/Gr pastors, they believe Christians have the Holy Spirit. Other Pentecostals generally teach the same thing. So do Charismatics in my experience. My guess is I have more direct experience with both groups, though less with Charismatics. Pentecostals and Charismatics generally believe that being baptized with the Holy Spirit is being empowered by the Spirit and that it generally occurs after salvation (though it could occur when someone first believes as in Acts 10.)
That is not a typical belief of Oneness Pentecostals, who sometimes go by 'Apostolic' (though the Trinitarian Pentecostals use that name in South Africa.)
As far as your description of evangelical beliefs go, there are some evangelicals who don't seem to think a believer needs to produce any fruit at all if he makes a confession of belief. And Nazarenes and Methodists would have different views about losing salvation than Baptists.
The Assemblies of God is the biggest Pentecostal denomination worldwide. If you read sermons or teachings from A/Gr pastors, they believe Christians have the Holy Spirit. Other Pentecostals generally teach the same thing. So do Charismatics in my experience. My guess is I have more direct experience with both groups, though less with Charismatics. Pentecostals and Charismatics generally believe that being baptized with the Holy Spirit is being empowered by the Spirit and that it generally occurs after salvation (though it could occur when someone first believes as in Acts 10.)
That is not a typical belief of Oneness Pentecostals, who sometimes go by 'Apostolic' (though the Trinitarian Pentecostals use that name in South Africa.)
As far as your description of evangelical beliefs go, there are some evangelicals who don't seem to think a believer needs to produce any fruit at all if he makes a confession of belief. And Nazarenes and Methodists would have different views about losing salvation than Baptists.
What is your source about Heli being Mary's father and Joseph being given the title for inheriting his estate? If they followed the law and Mary died without brothers, actual land inheritance would have gone to the nearest male relative in the father's clan. I've heard the explanation about Heli being Mary's father, but it seems to be a way of dealing with a different geneology, rather than something from history.
The church tradition had to do with a Levrite marriage, where a woman married a man from the Solomon/Zerubabel lineage, he died, and she married a man from the David's son Nathan's lineage, Heli's lineage. Then it says the brother from the Solomon lineage died, and the son from Heli's lineage raised up seed unto his brother. (I hope I have which one married the other one right.) Eusebius' reported this as a church tradition. I think he cited Africanus as the source. I suppose it is possible the tradition was passed down from people who knew Joseph's family history, but we don't know.
If your theory about Heli's estate were true, it wouldn't mean the estate were large at all. But why believe a theory like that unless someone who lived way back then reported it as a fact.
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I don't see strong evidence for education in in depth knowledge of Aramaic here. I'm not saying Jesus did not speak Aramaic. To what extent Hebrew was used and to what extent Aramaic was used is debated, but there is evidence for the use of Hebrew, probably more outside of Jerusalem. I have a friend who has a masters in a Hebrew-related field that he earned at a seminary in Jerusalem. He says that there is a story about a so-called 'rabbi' who could not think of a Hebrew word, so he asked his maid.
The poor 'people of the land' stuck around during the Babylonian captivity, speaking Hebrew. Some of them may have mixed with other inhabitants, but the surrounding nations spoke similar 'Hebrew languages.' The richer upper class went to Babylon and came back speaking Aramaic, and settled in Jerusalem. Up in Galilee, Jews might have spoken Hebrew.
But the Aramaic-speaking Jews, I've heard and read, memorized the Torah as part of their education growing up, learning Hebrew along the way. Leviticus is supposed to be a good book for learning Hebrew due to the repetition, and it was the first book they memorized. So they would have had some knowledge of Hebrew.
Edersheim's 'Life and Times...' says that some speakers in the synagogue might speak in Hebrew, and another person would translate into Aramaic.
Someone who spoke Hebrew pretty much all the time might have picked up a few words like Eloi and Rabonni. Personally, I think Jesus likely knew Aramaic, Hebrew, and quite possibly Greek.
The church tradition had to do with a Levrite marriage, where a woman married a man from the Solomon/Zerubabel lineage, he died, and she married a man from the David's son Nathan's lineage, Heli's lineage. Then it says the brother from the Solomon lineage died, and the son from Heli's lineage raised up seed unto his brother. (I hope I have which one married the other one right.) Eusebius' reported this as a church tradition. I think he cited Africanus as the source. I suppose it is possible the tradition was passed down from people who knew Joseph's family history, but we don't know.
If your theory about Heli's estate were true, it wouldn't mean the estate were large at all. But why believe a theory like that unless someone who lived way back then reported it as a fact.
[/quote]
I don't see strong evidence for education in in depth knowledge of Aramaic here. I'm not saying Jesus did not speak Aramaic. To what extent Hebrew was used and to what extent Aramaic was used is debated, but there is evidence for the use of Hebrew, probably more outside of Jerusalem. I have a friend who has a masters in a Hebrew-related field that he earned at a seminary in Jerusalem. He says that there is a story about a so-called 'rabbi' who could not think of a Hebrew word, so he asked his maid.
The poor 'people of the land' stuck around during the Babylonian captivity, speaking Hebrew. Some of them may have mixed with other inhabitants, but the surrounding nations spoke similar 'Hebrew languages.' The richer upper class went to Babylon and came back speaking Aramaic, and settled in Jerusalem. Up in Galilee, Jews might have spoken Hebrew.
But the Aramaic-speaking Jews, I've heard and read, memorized the Torah as part of their education growing up, learning Hebrew along the way. Leviticus is supposed to be a good book for learning Hebrew due to the repetition, and it was the first book they memorized. So they would have had some knowledge of Hebrew.
Edersheim's 'Life and Times...' says that some speakers in the synagogue might speak in Hebrew, and another person would translate into Aramaic.
Someone who spoke Hebrew pretty much all the time might have picked up a few words like Eloi and Rabonni. Personally, I think Jesus likely knew Aramaic, Hebrew, and quite possibly Greek.