Here is something to really think about. The imminent return of Christ was never taught in the NT, nor was it ever believed in Church history until a man named John Darby made it up around 1830, it is an end time deception. Jesus told Peter that he would live to be an old man, that story was known by the church, so the church knew that Jesus could not return until after the death of Peter. So they were not believing Jesus return was imminent. Paul made it plain that the church could not be gathered until AFTER the revealing of the Antichrist(which happens during the tribulation) Jesus Himself said that He would return to gather the believers AFTER the tribulation. You folks can believe what you want but I choose to believe the bible.
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Oh and PS::
I also believe that the Anti-christ will come before the return of Jesus and part of His deception upon the world will include him claiming to be the Messiah.. I believe many will accept Him as such and worship Him as God.. So many will be surprised when the actual Messiah returns because they will think that the Anti-christ is the Messiah and will be serving Him thinking they are serving God..
I also believe that the Anti-christ will come before the return of Jesus and part of His deception upon the world will include him claiming to be the Messiah.. I believe many will accept Him as such and worship Him as God.. So many will be surprised when the actual Messiah returns because they will think that the Anti-christ is the Messiah and will be serving Him thinking they are serving God..
If only people would seek God and quit "learning" from men I think Christendom would be more cohesive, instead we have hundreds of beliefs, when there is only ONE TRUTH. This is not normal, it is of course Satan doing work, just like he deceived Peter in Garden of Gethsemane.
Think about Matthew 24, what did Jesus mean by the OP talking point ? He meant exactly what he stated, that no one would know the day nor the hour, of course. The Bridegroom in the Jewish wedding custom, never knew himself when he was coming, the FATHER SENT HIM, after the Bridegroom had prepared a room for the couple in the Fathers house. The Father usually sent the Bridegroom after the midnight hour, to surprise the the Bride, he came with a SHOUT (of joy no doubt and expectation) and this the Bride was EXPECTANT but SURPRISED at the same time, thus Jesus heed to BE READY.
[FONT="]44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.
Jesus is coming for his bride in LIKE MANNER. Now is this the Rapture or The Second Coming ? I will do that in another post. [/FONT]
Think about Matthew 24, what did Jesus mean by the OP talking point ? He meant exactly what he stated, that no one would know the day nor the hour, of course. The Bridegroom in the Jewish wedding custom, never knew himself when he was coming, the FATHER SENT HIM, after the Bridegroom had prepared a room for the couple in the Fathers house. The Father usually sent the Bridegroom after the midnight hour, to surprise the the Bride, he came with a SHOUT (of joy no doubt and expectation) and this the Bride was EXPECTANT but SURPRISED at the same time, thus Jesus heed to BE READY.
[FONT="]44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.
Jesus is coming for his bride in LIKE MANNER. Now is this the Rapture or The Second Coming ? I will do that in another post. [/FONT]
The Rapture was told by Paul 2000 years ago, its called the "Catching away". The Word used is Harpazo, then the Latin Vulgate used Rapio, and the English used Catching Away.
Matthew 24:32-44 is the Rapture, two will be in the field, one taken and one left. Jesus came to all the Lost Sheep of Israel, so Jesus had a duty to prophesy about the future of ALL JEWS. The Messianic (Christian) Jews will be taken to Heaven with the Bride, they have the OIL that goes in the LAMP, so they are Raptured with the Church because they are a part of the Church (Body of Christ).
Matthew 24:14-31 is the Unbelieving Jews destination. They will of course miss the Rapture because of UNBELIEF, then the Two Witnesses come and Elijah turns Israel back to God before the coming Day of the Lord (Malachi 4:5-6) and Zechariah chapters 12 and 13). So at the Abomination of Desolation (AoD) the Jewish people who have turned to Jesus as their Messiah by this time, Flee to the Wilderness (probably Petra) where God protects them.
Jesus stated there will be a time of trouble like never before at this time. Now Jesus warns these "New Christians/Believers in Messiah not to be deceived by "FALSE CHRISTS" Performing miracles. He says do not go unto the Desert, or to a Secret Chamber, FOR THIS WILL NOT BE ME.........I think the Anti-Christ and False Prophets goal is to trick them out of their protected dwelling place, this is why Jesus warned them not to go, saying this will not be me, for when you do see me, everyone will see me coming in the EASTERN SKIES, so this is the Second Coming, it happens 1260 Days after the AoD, We know the time frame for this coming, because the Anti-Christ is given 42 months to rule over the Saints, and the Jews are to be protected for 1260 (NOT 1261) days in the Wilderness.
You see, Jesus comes back after the Rapture, seven years after the rapture, in the Eastern Skies, and the Church comes back with him, just like Rev. 19 says, on white horses. Jesus tells both the Messianic Jews and the unbelieving Jews their prophetic fate. These two passages are DIFFERENT.........That is why they are both told.
Matthew 24:32-44 is the Rapture, two will be in the field, one taken and one left. Jesus came to all the Lost Sheep of Israel, so Jesus had a duty to prophesy about the future of ALL JEWS. The Messianic (Christian) Jews will be taken to Heaven with the Bride, they have the OIL that goes in the LAMP, so they are Raptured with the Church because they are a part of the Church (Body of Christ).
Matthew 24:14-31 is the Unbelieving Jews destination. They will of course miss the Rapture because of UNBELIEF, then the Two Witnesses come and Elijah turns Israel back to God before the coming Day of the Lord (Malachi 4:5-6) and Zechariah chapters 12 and 13). So at the Abomination of Desolation (AoD) the Jewish people who have turned to Jesus as their Messiah by this time, Flee to the Wilderness (probably Petra) where God protects them.
Jesus stated there will be a time of trouble like never before at this time. Now Jesus warns these "New Christians/Believers in Messiah not to be deceived by "FALSE CHRISTS" Performing miracles. He says do not go unto the Desert, or to a Secret Chamber, FOR THIS WILL NOT BE ME.........I think the Anti-Christ and False Prophets goal is to trick them out of their protected dwelling place, this is why Jesus warned them not to go, saying this will not be me, for when you do see me, everyone will see me coming in the EASTERN SKIES, so this is the Second Coming, it happens 1260 Days after the AoD, We know the time frame for this coming, because the Anti-Christ is given 42 months to rule over the Saints, and the Jews are to be protected for 1260 (NOT 1261) days in the Wilderness.
You see, Jesus comes back after the Rapture, seven years after the rapture, in the Eastern Skies, and the Church comes back with him, just like Rev. 19 says, on white horses. Jesus tells both the Messianic Jews and the unbelieving Jews their prophetic fate. These two passages are DIFFERENT.........That is why they are both told.
P
1 thes 3;12 And the Lord make you to increase and abound in love one toward another, and toward all men, even as we do toward you:
13 To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.
1 thes 4;16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
none of that is "sweet bye and bye" talk. It is "their lifetime talk"
13 To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.
1 thes 4;16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
none of that is "sweet bye and bye" talk. It is "their lifetime talk"
Last edited:
P
Uh,BOTH SIDE believe the ac is revealed before the rapture.
That is ridiculous to say that we ALL will take the mark.
You have no idea what ANYONE will or will not do.
Heck ,we could say all you postribs will take the mark due to your obsession with the GT.(what exactly would that do to the discussion?). But I know that motive thingy is in you guy's dna.
That is ridiculous to say that we ALL will take the mark.
You have no idea what ANYONE will or will not do.
Heck ,we could say all you postribs will take the mark due to your obsession with the GT.(what exactly would that do to the discussion?). But I know that motive thingy is in you guy's dna.
The times of Noah where evil roamed upon the earth, apostasy, Chimeras, Nephilim, Rephaim, clones, etc. It was so bad that only 5 people in the whole world had perfect genes thus, God saved them (Noah, his wife and three sons).
Along came the fallen angels Gen 6..and changed all of that. For over 100 years evil continued and the people knew about the coming disasteryet did nothing.......Sounds like today......
We have chimeras, DNA editing, church apostasy, Chimeras, Nephilim, Rephaim, clones, Bionics, super-soldiers, etc.........We are in the times of Noah.....At no other time in history has man been able to affect the outcome of mankind himself except for some 4500 years ago.
Some will say I am wrong,,there were 8 people on that boat. Yes, the wives of the three sons of Noah. When does the Bible tells us they (the wives) came from and and when. Why did/do we still have giants (Rephaim) from those days forward.to today..........(the three wives of the sons of Noah)
Jesus tells that when the fulfillment of the church is complete, (no one knows but the Father), He will come to the clouds to collect those who believe in him.
However, Like the five virgins who went to get lamp oil, there are those that know the Lord but are not watching for him. They will be left behind.
For those that are watching for him, like the other five virgins who were prepared by having enough oil for their lamps, they will be taken into the clouds with him as his brides.
There are some who scoff at this for in the past they have watched and He has not come.
Yes, I look every day for Him to come to collect His church into the clouds and when he does that and I am alive, I will get to see him for the first time.
However, if He does notcome while I am alive, then I in death will finally see him in heaven. I win in any direction.
Along came the fallen angels Gen 6..and changed all of that. For over 100 years evil continued and the people knew about the coming disasteryet did nothing.......Sounds like today......
We have chimeras, DNA editing, church apostasy, Chimeras, Nephilim, Rephaim, clones, Bionics, super-soldiers, etc.........We are in the times of Noah.....At no other time in history has man been able to affect the outcome of mankind himself except for some 4500 years ago.
Some will say I am wrong,,there were 8 people on that boat. Yes, the wives of the three sons of Noah. When does the Bible tells us they (the wives) came from and and when. Why did/do we still have giants (Rephaim) from those days forward.to today..........(the three wives of the sons of Noah)
Jesus tells that when the fulfillment of the church is complete, (no one knows but the Father), He will come to the clouds to collect those who believe in him.
However, Like the five virgins who went to get lamp oil, there are those that know the Lord but are not watching for him. They will be left behind.
For those that are watching for him, like the other five virgins who were prepared by having enough oil for their lamps, they will be taken into the clouds with him as his brides.
There are some who scoff at this for in the past they have watched and He has not come.
Yes, I look every day for Him to come to collect His church into the clouds and when he does that and I am alive, I will get to see him for the first time.
However, if He does notcome while I am alive, then I in death will finally see him in heaven. I win in any direction.
The context is set in verse 3; "Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?". Jesus answered, telling them the signs of the end times. "Watch and be ready" was for those who would witnessed those things come to pass. We don't know the exact day/hour, but we do know the signs that signify the end is near.
I don't recall Jesus ever telling Peter he'd live to be an old man? But your correct about Paul who wrote that Christ would not return until we saw the anti-Christ standing in the holy place (2 Thessalonians 2).
I don't recall Jesus ever telling Peter he'd live to be an old man? But your correct about Paul who wrote that Christ would not return until we saw the anti-Christ standing in the holy place (2 Thessalonians 2).
This is written as an explanation that the congregations of the church age will think everything is going along fine and not be aware of the fallen condition of the congregations away from the true gospel. For those persons, the coming of the Lord will be a surprise: Luke 12:45-46 explains: "But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken;The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers."
Contrarily, the true believers are told in 1 Thess 5:4: "But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober. For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night. But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,"
The verse case you are questioning is about the congregations who have fallen away from the true gospel, not the true believers. That is why the verse preceding your verse in question says: "But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up."
Contrarily, the true believers are told in 1 Thess 5:4: "But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober. For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night. But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,"
The verse case you are questioning is about the congregations who have fallen away from the true gospel, not the true believers. That is why the verse preceding your verse in question says: "But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up."
Read Luke's account in 17:24-37. This is the Second Coming. The break from AD 70 events and future Second Coming is between Mat 24:26 and 27. Before Christ returns, the wicked are going to be punished. They will be afflicted with all kinds of divine punishment. God makes the "earth" Christ's footstool, BEFORE He returns. This is the "tribulation" that Jesus follows.
This is concerning the resurrection of the saints to be gathered unto Christ,which Jesus said watch and keep yourself ready,which means be led of the Spirit acting like Christ,and not a hypocrite,for Jesus said if you are a hypocrite when the resurrection happens,you will have your portion with the hypocrites,there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth,and the story of the 10 virgins,5 went with Christ for they were led of the Spirit,and 5 did not for they did not have the Spirit.
Also arms standing of his part is not Jesus,but the last king,who will speak lies at one table with another king,shall do according to his will,and will not honor the God of his fathers,but in his estate he shall honor the God of forces,and a God his fathers knew not,and shall not regard any god,nor the desire of women,but he shall magnify himself above all.
Some people think Matthew 24 has already come to pass,but they have some explaining to do.
Mat 24:1 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.
Mat 24:2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
That is all Jesus says about the overthrow of Jerusalem,and He said that because the disciples said look at these buildings.
Mat 24:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
Mat 24:4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
Mat 24:5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
Then Jesus tells them of His coming back,and the end of the world,and tells them to watch out for spiritual deception.
Mat 24:6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
Mat 24:7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.
Mat 24:8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.
Then Jesus tells them they shall hear of wars and rumors of wars,and nations shall rise against nation,and kingdom against kingdom,and there shall be famines,and pestilences,and earthquakes,in different places on earth.
But how is the saints,Jews,supposed to know about those things if they have a limited view of their world,which they can only know if they can view what is going on in the world.
Dan 12:8 And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things?
Dan 12:9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.
Dan 12:4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.
Daniel did not understand for he had a limited view of the world,but when the saints get to the end time they will understand for they can see and know what the world is doing,and how they can communicate with each other,because of advanced travel,and technology.
The disciples would be in this same position as Daniel,having a limited view of the world,so how would they see and know of nation against nation,and kingdom against kingdom,and natural disasters,and famines,and pestilences,that shall happen on different places on earth.
Mat 24:9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.
If this is back in the past,then how can they be hated of all nations for Jesus' name.How can every single nation on this earth hate them without advanced travel,and technology,to even know about them and Christianity.
Mat 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
Again if this is back in the past,then how can the Gospel be preached in to all the world at that time as a witness to them.
Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
If Matthew 24 is about the past then how is the resurrection of the saints happening immediately after the great tribulation,when it has not even occurred yet.
Also arms standing of his part is not Jesus,but the last king,who will speak lies at one table with another king,shall do according to his will,and will not honor the God of his fathers,but in his estate he shall honor the God of forces,and a God his fathers knew not,and shall not regard any god,nor the desire of women,but he shall magnify himself above all.
Some people think Matthew 24 has already come to pass,but they have some explaining to do.
Mat 24:1 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.
Mat 24:2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
That is all Jesus says about the overthrow of Jerusalem,and He said that because the disciples said look at these buildings.
Mat 24:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
Mat 24:4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
Mat 24:5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
Then Jesus tells them of His coming back,and the end of the world,and tells them to watch out for spiritual deception.
Mat 24:6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
Mat 24:7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.
Mat 24:8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.
Then Jesus tells them they shall hear of wars and rumors of wars,and nations shall rise against nation,and kingdom against kingdom,and there shall be famines,and pestilences,and earthquakes,in different places on earth.
But how is the saints,Jews,supposed to know about those things if they have a limited view of their world,which they can only know if they can view what is going on in the world.
Dan 12:8 And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things?
Dan 12:9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.
Dan 12:4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.
Daniel did not understand for he had a limited view of the world,but when the saints get to the end time they will understand for they can see and know what the world is doing,and how they can communicate with each other,because of advanced travel,and technology.
The disciples would be in this same position as Daniel,having a limited view of the world,so how would they see and know of nation against nation,and kingdom against kingdom,and natural disasters,and famines,and pestilences,that shall happen on different places on earth.
Mat 24:9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.
If this is back in the past,then how can they be hated of all nations for Jesus' name.How can every single nation on this earth hate them without advanced travel,and technology,to even know about them and Christianity.
Mat 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
Again if this is back in the past,then how can the Gospel be preached in to all the world at that time as a witness to them.
Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
If Matthew 24 is about the past then how is the resurrection of the saints happening immediately after the great tribulation,when it has not even occurred yet.
Perhaps what Jesus is suggesting is that no one knows when their time is up, either city, nation or individual. I do believe that when Christians are near their death, Christ comes near and gives them peace and comfort. Sometimes our death is unexpected, for example-death from a car accident. This could be a warning to all, that we don't know when we will be taken "in death" and we need to be ready spiritually. Jesus comes to us in other ways too (besides the tangible 2nd coming in which He'll usher in the new heavens and earth (eternal state), Jesus said in Revelations He comes knocking at our door, and if we invite Him in, He will dine with us.
Hello samuel23,
Ok, that's a good start. So we have to ask, what is going to take place in between now and the second coming? But first let's define the events:
The gathering of the church (rapture):
Christ descends from heaven to the earths atmosphere, where the dead in Christ are resurrected bodily and the living in Christ are transformed into their immortal and glorified bodies. Then according John 14:1-3, the whole group is taken back to the Father's house to those places that Jesus said he was going to prepare of us. (1 Thes.4:13-18, 1 Cor.15:51-53)
The Second Coming:
Jesus' physical return to the earth to end the age and establish his millennial kingdom, which takes place after God's wrath has been poured out via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, where every eye shall see Him, even those who pierced him. (Matt.24:29-31, Rev.1:7, 19:11-21)
First of all, you are correct, there are not two returns of Christ. When Christ descends to gather the church, He will not be returning to the earth, but only meeting those he resurrects and those he changes and catches up into the air to meet him, where according to His promise in John 14:1-3, he will take the entire church back to the Father's house to those places that he prepared for us.
By claiming that the resurrection and the gathering of the church takes place when Christ returns to the earth to end the age at His second coming, it would put the church through the entire wrath of God.
In between right now and the time of the second coming, God's wrath via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, must take place. In fact, Christ's coming to the earth to end the age is what ends God's wrath, because according to Matt.24:22, if those days of wrath were allowed to go on any longer, there would be no one left alive on the earth. Now what does the word of God say regarding believers and God's coming wrath?
"But you, brothers, are not in the darkness so that this day should overtake you like a thief. For you are all sons of the light and sons of the day; we do not belong to the night or to the darkness. So then, let us not sleep as the others do, but let us remain awake and sober. For those who sleep, sleep at night; and those who get drunk, get drunk at night. But since we belong to the day, let us be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love, and the helmet of our hope of salvation. For God has not appointed us to suffer wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ."
"For they themselves report what kind of welcome you gave us, and how you turned away from idols to serve the living and true God and to await His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead—Jesus our deliverer from the coming wrath.
"Because you have kept the word of My patient endurance, I also will keep you [out of] the hour of the trial being about to come upon the whole inhabited world, to try those dwelling upon the earth."
So, we have several promises in Scripture, that believers in Christ are not appointed to go through God's wrath. A major problem with people who claim that the church is gathered at the second coming, which takes place after God's wrath has been completed, is two-fold. 1) They do not understand the severity and magnitude of God's coming wrath and 2) they don't understand the underlying principle as to why believers cannot go through God's wrath.
1) Regarding the severity of God's wrath, Jesus said, if those days were allowed to go on any longer than seven years and especially the last 3 1/2 years, no one would be left alive on the earth. As an example of this, the 4th seal and the 6th trumpet, are the only two places within the narrative of God's wrath that gives a percentage of the fatalities as a result of God's wrath, they being a fourth and a third, respectively, which based on 7 billion people would be approx.4.5 billion fatalities. And that is not including trumpets 1,2 and 3 nor the seven bowl judgments.
2) Regarding understanding the underlying principal of why believers will not go through God's wrath, in paying the penalty for our sins, Jesus also experienced and satisfied God's wrath due to us as a result of our sins. Therefore, since Christ already took upon himself the wrath that we deserve, believers are not appointed to suffer God's coming wrath. In essence, it would be like a double payment. It would also be a dishonor to Christ, since He already suffered God's wrath in our place. We can't suffer wrath that has already been satisfied.
So, we are not adding anything to the scriptures that are not in the Bible, but we are cross-referencing and comparing scripture to come to our conclusion. The number one reason as to why believers cannot not be gathered at the second coming, is because God's wrath is in operation during that entire seven years until Christ returns to the earth to end the age and we are not appointed to suffer God's wrath.
Another reason that demonstrates that the church cannot be gathered at the second coming, is because Rev.19:14 reveals that the church, who will have previously been gathered, is already in heaven during the time of God's wrath and are seem returning with Christ, following him out of heaven riding on white horses and wearing here fine linen, white and clean. With Him will be His "called, chosen and faithful followers." (Rev.17:14)
In order for the bride/church to be following Christ out of heaven, she would have had to have already been in heaven.
I hope that you and others will truly consider the truth that is being revealed here.
Ok, that's a good start. So we have to ask, what is going to take place in between now and the second coming? But first let's define the events:
The gathering of the church (rapture):
Christ descends from heaven to the earths atmosphere, where the dead in Christ are resurrected bodily and the living in Christ are transformed into their immortal and glorified bodies. Then according John 14:1-3, the whole group is taken back to the Father's house to those places that Jesus said he was going to prepare of us. (1 Thes.4:13-18, 1 Cor.15:51-53)
The Second Coming:
Jesus' physical return to the earth to end the age and establish his millennial kingdom, which takes place after God's wrath has been poured out via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, where every eye shall see Him, even those who pierced him. (Matt.24:29-31, Rev.1:7, 19:11-21)
First of all, you are correct, there are not two returns of Christ. When Christ descends to gather the church, He will not be returning to the earth, but only meeting those he resurrects and those he changes and catches up into the air to meet him, where according to His promise in John 14:1-3, he will take the entire church back to the Father's house to those places that he prepared for us.
By claiming that the resurrection and the gathering of the church takes place when Christ returns to the earth to end the age at His second coming, it would put the church through the entire wrath of God.
In between right now and the time of the second coming, God's wrath via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, must take place. In fact, Christ's coming to the earth to end the age is what ends God's wrath, because according to Matt.24:22, if those days of wrath were allowed to go on any longer, there would be no one left alive on the earth. Now what does the word of God say regarding believers and God's coming wrath?
"But you, brothers, are not in the darkness so that this day should overtake you like a thief. For you are all sons of the light and sons of the day; we do not belong to the night or to the darkness. So then, let us not sleep as the others do, but let us remain awake and sober. For those who sleep, sleep at night; and those who get drunk, get drunk at night. But since we belong to the day, let us be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love, and the helmet of our hope of salvation. For God has not appointed us to suffer wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ."
"For they themselves report what kind of welcome you gave us, and how you turned away from idols to serve the living and true God and to await His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead—Jesus our deliverer from the coming wrath.
"Because you have kept the word of My patient endurance, I also will keep you [out of] the hour of the trial being about to come upon the whole inhabited world, to try those dwelling upon the earth."
So, we have several promises in Scripture, that believers in Christ are not appointed to go through God's wrath. A major problem with people who claim that the church is gathered at the second coming, which takes place after God's wrath has been completed, is two-fold. 1) They do not understand the severity and magnitude of God's coming wrath and 2) they don't understand the underlying principle as to why believers cannot go through God's wrath.
1) Regarding the severity of God's wrath, Jesus said, if those days were allowed to go on any longer than seven years and especially the last 3 1/2 years, no one would be left alive on the earth. As an example of this, the 4th seal and the 6th trumpet, are the only two places within the narrative of God's wrath that gives a percentage of the fatalities as a result of God's wrath, they being a fourth and a third, respectively, which based on 7 billion people would be approx.4.5 billion fatalities. And that is not including trumpets 1,2 and 3 nor the seven bowl judgments.
2) Regarding understanding the underlying principal of why believers will not go through God's wrath, in paying the penalty for our sins, Jesus also experienced and satisfied God's wrath due to us as a result of our sins. Therefore, since Christ already took upon himself the wrath that we deserve, believers are not appointed to suffer God's coming wrath. In essence, it would be like a double payment. It would also be a dishonor to Christ, since He already suffered God's wrath in our place. We can't suffer wrath that has already been satisfied.
So, we are not adding anything to the scriptures that are not in the Bible, but we are cross-referencing and comparing scripture to come to our conclusion. The number one reason as to why believers cannot not be gathered at the second coming, is because God's wrath is in operation during that entire seven years until Christ returns to the earth to end the age and we are not appointed to suffer God's wrath.
Another reason that demonstrates that the church cannot be gathered at the second coming, is because Rev.19:14 reveals that the church, who will have previously been gathered, is already in heaven during the time of God's wrath and are seem returning with Christ, following him out of heaven riding on white horses and wearing here fine linen, white and clean. With Him will be His "called, chosen and faithful followers." (Rev.17:14)
In order for the bride/church to be following Christ out of heaven, she would have had to have already been in heaven.
I hope that you and others will truly consider the truth that is being revealed here.