Once saved, always saved. Chosen elect of God?

[phil36]

I think Paul did believe in the elect being secure.
Handing believers over to satan seems to go along with this belief.

Jesus being faithful, a friend, our Lord is aimed for people being tortured,
in prison, deprived of human contact, and pushed to the limit of surviving.

So the whole desire to push OSAS is wrong. It has ended in people doing
unbelievably bad things while depressed believing themselves to be saved
no matter what. Others use it as a sign of salvation itself like open warfare.

The elect are saved from one side of eternity to the other, but it is not our
job to identify them, just to walk and live in Jesus's love. If people live in sin
they are to be confronted and ejected if without repentance, so the witness of
the body reflects the life of our Lord Jesus Christ.

You know this is fallen when righteousness and being a light is not the bodies
primary focus.

I am not sure if you are aware Peter, It not only refers to being Born again, but also our union with Christ... A great GOSPEL truth. It is our secure life in Christ (union) that brings transformation. And this transformation in the body (church) and individually can be seen by all the world.

I personally am not keen on the descriptor 'OSAS', I would prefer the description 'perseverance of the saints'. However, I hope you realize it all goes hand in hand and that it is part of the Gospel. That is, Our union in Christ, that God himself has told us is secure in Him.

P.s We never know who the elect are that is why the gospel goes out to all men. It is the Spirit who regenerates (john 3:1-8), Don't be like Nicodemus and ask 'how can this be? (John 3:9).'

 

[PeterJens]

I am not sure if you are aware Peter, It not only refers to being Born again, but also our union with Christ... A great GOSPEL truth. It is our secure life in Christ (union) that brings transformation. And this transformation in the body (church) and individually can be seen by all the world.

I personally am not keen on the descriptor 'OSAS', I would prefer the description 'perseverance of the saints'. However, I hope you realize it all goes hand in hand and that it is part of the Gospel. That is, Our union in Christ, that God himself has told us is secure in Him.

P.s We never know who the elect are that is why the gospel goes out to all men. It is the Spirit who regenerates (john 3:1-8), Don't be like Nicodemus and ask 'how can this be? (John 3:9).'

Ofcourse being born again is about the walk.

There is a problem between the mystical view of our walk, and the relationship
with God. The word of God gives birth to work without our hearts which change
us.

The question for me personally comes down to friends who I used to fellowship
with but their lives are now very shut to me. You end up wondering what their
faith really means to them and how such aspirations in scripture often do not
get fulfilled in peoples lives.

Finally, all of you, be like-minded, be sympathetic, love one another, be compassionate and humble.
1 Peter 3:8

Is this verse reflective of the behaviour of most here who claim the name Christian?

 

[phil36]

Ofcourse being born again is about the walk.

There is a problem between the mystical view of our walk, and the relationship
with God. The word of God gives birth to work without our hearts which change
us.

The question for me personally comes down to friends who I used to fellowship
with but their lives are now very shut to me. You end up wondering what their
faith really means to them and how such aspirations in scripture often do not
get fulfilled in peoples lives.

Finally, all of you, be like-minded, be sympathetic, love one another, be compassionate and humble.
1 Peter 3:8

Is this verse reflective of the behaviour of most here who claim the name Christian?

There is nothing wrong with debate. I assume that is why you have used 1 Peter - 'be like minded' or is it because not many agree with you, i am not sure what you reason for that?

I would say most on here are like minded when it comes to the essentials. One of those would be, that is man is morally incapable because of our sin nature to choose God.. now we can debate whether being born again is monergistic or synergistic. but that doesn't negate the truth that man has a sin nature. Which ultimatly leads to the question of ones assurance in Christ.. which the bible affirms. That's not something we boast in as it is not of ourselves. It should make us all the more humble.


Why you friends have closed the door on you has no bearing or relevance as to whether a biblical truth is true. That's between you and your (ex) friends to figure out. but not relevant to what is true.

 

[Ariel82]

Peter, if you treat your former friends like you treat people here on CC, I can tell you why their lives might be shut to you. However, I doubt you wish to hear it.

God's mercy and grace and forgiveness shines a light on the lives of all who have been touched by it.

Why do those who claim the name of Christ Jesus not forgive? Why do they not show mercy or grace to those they feel have wronged them?

It is easy to love a friend or someone who loves you, but to love someone who has attacked you and accused you falsely, Do you have that kind of agape love?

That kind of love isn't something you can fake.

Agape love is a divine gift given when we add to our faith, virtue, knowledge, self control, perseverance, brotherly kindness and finally agape love.

You can lie and say you have forgiven, but your words and action betray your lie.

Instead, take all anger and hurt to God each night. Do not give place for Satan to build a spiritual stronghold of bitterness in your life.

He will fortify it with lies. Protect it by inflaming your pride. Tell you to shoot arrows at any who question your self righteousness as being weak, not defending the faith, deluded, a wolf, etc. Satan will cause the anger and sense of injustice fresh for he loves to see hearts bleeding. He will twist what the other person is saying to seem to be an attack upon you, so you attack them. Oh how Satan rejoices when he can get you to attack the other sheep. He has a lot of fun when He gets the person to attack back. Then we get the whole mudslinging.

In the middle of it all, threads get derailed and folks stop talking about God and how He wants us to love. They stop even trying to love according to God's will because their strongholds are under attack and they need to defend.

Adding to our faith...brotherly kindness and love, may we all reach that level of maturity.

 

[PeterJens]

Instead, take all anger and hurt to God each night. Do not give place for Satan to build a spiritual stronghold of bitterness in your life.

You think I am bitter. I do not recognise bitterness in myself and I do know what it is.
You have your own sympathies, and again missed the main point I was making.

Now I do disown people who claim to know Christ yet lie, and defame.
I know the theology, and I reject it out of hand. I know the evil that
comes going down that road and the hordes of hell that follow it.

So that is it, I can say no more. God bless, Peter

 

[phil36]

You think I am bitter. I do not recognise bitterness in myself and I do know what it is.
You have your own sympathies, and again missed the main point I was making.

Now I do disown people who claim to know Christ yet lie, and defame.
I know the theology, and I reject it out of hand. I know the evil that
comes going down that road and the hordes of hell that follow it.

So that is it, I can say no more. God bless, Peter

Maybe your view on our 'sin nature' brings you to your conclusions?? And maybe that is why your friends closed the door on you?

 

[PeterJens]

Why you friends have closed the door on you has no bearing or relevance as to whether a biblical truth is true.

I will fill you in. I went to a church which I was associated with for 9 years.
I knew the pastor well and had some good spiritual experiences in the ministry.

I left the church when I got married. They went off into Benny Hinn territory
open heaven, health, wealth, WOF direction. I was shocked.

I spoke to a few of them, and some felt it was a bump in the road, while others
they had gone off the rails. They helped start God TV, which again was quite
a shock.

Now I made contact back with the minister, who shares platforms with people
I would not talk to, but he is happy with where he stands.

Personally I think it is all worldly and compromised, a sell out, but they care nothing
about these issues or sin and holiness.

So it does have relevance to biblical truth and our walk, and when does a brother become
a heretic, and what is fellowship in the Lord when their view of God is so different.

 

[PeterJens]

Maybe your view on our 'sin nature' brings you to your conclusions?? And maybe that is why your friends closed the door on you?

To be honest on a personal level it is about emotional heart openness.
I now share love, being honest and truthful, and do not play going around the
houses. For some this is just too brutal, and status, achievement and the
latest holiday is really all they want to spend time talking about.

My kids are the same, lol. Once you get interested in being real, just talking
for the sake of it becomes pretty empty.

 

[phil36]

To be honest on a personal level it is about emotional heart openness.
I now share love, being honest and truthful, and do not play going around the
houses. For some this is just too brutal, and status, achievement and the
latest holiday is really all they want to spend time talking about.

My kids are the same, lol. Once you get interested in being real, just talking
for the sake of it becomes pretty empty.

Well, I would agree ' health 'wealth and prosperity gospel is no gospel indeed. But I would still be interested to hear what you think of our 'sin nature' and I am not sure what you mean by 'emotional heart openess'.

 

[PeterJens]

Well, I would agree ' health 'wealth and prosperity gospel is no gospel indeed. But I would still be interested to hear what you think of our 'sin nature' and I am not sure what you mean by 'emotional heart openess'.

My current view on sin nature is love defended to the point we sin to justify
the hurts within. This creates a sin nature that kills itself as love is squeezed and
repressed the more we travel.

emotional heart openness - Our hearts define who we really are and how we really
respond to life. To be a christian we need to let God into our hearts.
We need to walk with an open heart.

I threw in the word emotional to emphasis we are talking about our emotional reactions
to all parts of our life, and being aware to them before the Lord.

 

[phil36]

My current view on sin nature is love defended to the point we sin to justify
the hurts within. This creates a sin nature that kills itself as love is squeezed and
repressed the more we travel.

emotional heart openness - Our hearts define who we really are and how we really
respond to life. To be a christian we need to let God into our hearts.
We need to walk with an open heart.

I threw in the word emotional to emphasis we are talking about our emotional reactions
to all parts of our life, and being aware to them before the Lord.

Your view sounds an awful lot like Pelagianism to me..we don't create our own sin nature when we become aware of sin or sin. We inherit it. I take it you are saying that we are not born with a sin nature?

It is an important gospel issue, and relates to our union in Christ.

 

[NayborBear]

"So my questions are....

We see the words foreknowledge, chosen, elect, predestined, foreknew, and determined plan.
I am confused if Jesus died for all of mankind past, present, and future how can some be chosen over others and if active Christians are the chosen then does this mean once saved, always saved is biblical? Does this mean if a Christian falls away from Faith he was never truly chosen? Does this indicate the Devil has children as well predestined to be evil?"
("snipped" from OP)

To get a firmer "grip" to this "lip" (lol...so, sue me, cuz I ain't politically correct in my speakin'...lol), One MUST come to terms that there WAS a PREVIOUS Earth and Heaven AGE! In Genesis, methinks, in verse 2 er 3, where it's written "the Earth became waste, and void; and darkness (rendered in Revelation as gross darkness), and "man" had become ruined. (didn't include the rest of the verse, but, the meaning is pretty clear)
(this is from the Companion Bible, which is KJV)

Ok?...Stop!...Right there!.....THIS?....Was the earth and heaven age THAT WAS! The whole previous age, summed up in 1 verse! Why you wonder? The same reason God had Moses to make a written record of things, as they had already BECOME at that time! Elstwise, we wouldn't even have this fragment of history! There are other fragments of this previous earth and heaven age written (methinks) in Jeremiah. But without this particular fragment of history, it would be just so much "fill", or babble, and too oft times "read over", as something that seems completely out of context. Like a blank that has been filled, not realizing that there was a blank TO be filled! Please allow this verse 2 in Genesis provide some confirmation to that in Jeremiah, as pointing directly to that previous earth and heaven age!

If you don't understand that which I've just written?...You will not understand what predestination was, nor is!

As far as predestined for evil?.....You can read what Jesus sez of His accusers, when He was teaching in the temple, in John-8:44: "Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. he was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it!"

So?...Predestined for good?......Free Will?.....Predestined for evil?.....Free will?.....Some of us have a choice!.....Some of us have no choice!

Sound pretty cold and heartless? Don't neglect the fact there is another Earth and Heaven age, after this current age we are living in this very moment. An age where the father of lies, the author of confusion, the conspiricy and conspiritors, are silenced for that thousand years! THEN, released, for a spell! Then, the White Throne Judgement!

 

[PeterJens]

Your view sounds an awful lot like Pelagianism to me..we don't create our own sin nature when we become aware of sin or sin. We inherit it. I take it you are saying that we are not born with a sin nature?

It is an important gospel issue, and relates to our union in Christ.

sin nature - something innate with humans

All men sin. Until the age of responsibility is sin actually sin?

What is obvious is all men love their parents. All men get hurt and shut out
love and hide empathy, and lash out in revenge or retaliation against others.

Without God we may be moral, but will always get corrupted by self justification.

God declares we are made in His image.
Bodily? Spiritually? In the way we love?

What is the biggest psychological problem in human beings?
Bitterness and anger towards their parents.

What is the 5th commandment "Honour your mother and father."

Did Jesus walk perfectly?
Can we walk like Jesus?

Resolving through the cross the core love problem is our salvation.
This uniquely unlocks our hearts, opens us up to healing and a new communion
with the living God.

You view on all these things changes what you believe is possible
in Christ, what walking with Him is all about and why we so often
fail.

 

[Roughsoul1991]

This is a good question. Do you know what confession and repentance is?
Do you know the difference between ambition and delivery?

Peter had ambition, but needed to know what it meant, deep in his heart before it could
become real.

A sin does not recrucify Christ, but walking away in rebellion from Christ by loosing your faith
does.

My son as a youngster loved talking and doing things. We offered him a lot of money to not
break the rules for 5 hours. He honestly thought about it, and refused the offer because he
knew he could not deliver. Now he could, easily.

Christ measures our direction of walk, not how far along we are. Our faith is counted as our
relationship or righteousness, our walk is reflecting the righteousness we have been given.

If we walk too many times away from what we are in Christ our faith breaks and we loose
fellowship with the Lord and die again. Whether we ever will recover, I do not know.
Scripture warns we can be so damaged only judgement awaits us.

People ignore Scripture that holds them accountable with their relationship with Christ. Or better yet they twist it to fit some crazy theory and spend 5 min explaining a scripture that anyone can understand. It's good to read scripture none biased and take it as it is.

 

[PeterJens]

Early Church

Pauls language of the Holy People of God implies true purity and cleansing.
This shows total inability is not true, rather to be free from sin is possible.

Unbelief and cynicism leads people to doubt both the work of Christ in their hearts
and the word that brings this work.

If people say they walk righteously, rather than saying amen, they say liar.
If you say Gods people are holy, they criticise everyone without restraint.

Sounds like the enemy runs our view of each other rather than the Holy Spirit.
Imputed righteousness as a doctrine is a way of excusing most of scripture
into meaningless drivel. So if I say brother you are blameless, I am really saying
Christ is blameless but your are a worthless, judged sinner.

Until people start understanding Gods view of holiness and defilement they will
always play safe and write themselves off, because who are we to say God has
made us worthy.

But if we are not worthy after the cross, His holy people who are we?

 

[Roughsoul1991]

I will fill you in. I went to a church which I was associated with for 9 years.
I knew the pastor well and had some good spiritual experiences in the ministry.

I left the church when I got married. They went off into Benny Hinn territory
open heaven, health, wealth, WOF direction. I was shocked.

I spoke to a few of them, and some felt it was a bump in the road, while others
they had gone off the rails. They helped start God TV, which again was quite
a shock.

Now I made contact back with the minister, who shares platforms with people
I would not talk to, but he is happy with where he stands.

Personally I think it is all worldly and compromised, a sell out, but they care nothing
about these issues or sin and holiness.

So it does have relevance to biblical truth and our walk, and when does a brother become
a heretic, and what is fellowship in the Lord when their view of God is so different.

But from what I keep hearing your friends who use to follow truth has started following the world view. But they keep telling me these people where never truly saved. I just don't understand that because they once loved God but has now turned to follow lies. I just don't see how salvation could work in that. And if it don't then that means they can lose it by turning away from God

 

[Roughsoul1991]

Sometimes I think man can become too knowledgeable and not enough wisdom.

 

[phil36]

sin nature - something innate with humans

All men sin. Until the age of responsibility is sin actually sin?

What is obvious is all men love their parents. All men get hurt and shut out
love and hide empathy, and lash out in revenge or retaliation against others.

Without God we may be moral, but will always get corrupted by self justification.

God declares we are made in His image.
Bodily? Spiritually? In the way we love?

What is the biggest psychological problem in human beings?
Bitterness and anger towards their parents.

What is the 5th commandment "Honour your mother and father."

Did Jesus walk perfectly?
Can we walk like Jesus?

Resolving through the cross the core love problem is our salvation.
This uniquely unlocks our hearts, opens us up to healing and a new communion
with the living God.

You view on all these things changes what you believe is possible
in Christ, what walking with Him is all about and why we so often
fail.

I get you first line... but to be honest as for rest, Im not properly picking you up on your real meaning.

An example:

Without God we may be moral, but will always get corrupted by self justification.

God declares we are made in His image.
Bodily? Spiritually? In the way we love?

I can't really make head nor tail of your post Peter. It's me not understanding what exactly you are saying.

So would you say that man is capable himself to choose good without God's intervention? your not clear..one minute it sounds like you are saying that then in another sentence you seem to change your mind? (When I say good I mean morally good-that only the Spirit can wrought in people)

 

[eternally-gratefull]

People ignore Scripture that holds them accountable with their relationship with Christ. Or better yet they twist it to fit some crazy theory and spend 5 min explaining a scripture that anyone can understand. It's good to read scripture none biased and take it as it is.

No, I think this is a false perception of some out there that people do this. While there may be some, And I would never say never, that is not the case from what I have seen in CC.. it is the opposite which more than likely occurs on a daily bases.

That is what the issue has been in here.. It would do us all well (especially new people) to go back and look at what people are saying. before we respond..

Some people have an idea that they know what others believes, and even when they are proven wrong about such a belief, continue to go by their own view..

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Sometimes I think man can become too knowledgeable and not enough wisdom.

I also think we start to hold those who are over us up as infalible, and trust them so much we stop testing what they say.

I fell into this trap for years..