Once saved, always saved. Chosen elect of God?

[phil36]

Hi gb9,

Thanks for the heads up.

 

[PeterJens]

What you have said is not particularly factual.. Even with constraints and/or balance things still go astray.. so bang goes your thoughts above. A good biblical example is the school master.. and yet people still broke the rules with no balance. Good and bad is not ying and yang balancing each other out, or more to one side with influence. I have only asked you a simple question yet you are trying your hardest not to answer in the guise os some form of mystic speak (not very well i might add).

I am asking the right question, because are evil desires come from our own corrupt nature. So hopefully you can clear this matter up easily, when does one become corrupt (morally) are you saying only when one acts upon his own desires or before that?

Sin is actions that are a symptom of the heart that is dying.
Without Gods love at work within us, our hearts will decay and destroy us.

Everyones heart is different and different distortions develop. They fact they
will always develop without the Lord being present is the testimony of God.

From our perspective, with Gods presence and healing we can establish order
and life. It is really this simple.

 

[PeterJens]

hi phil,
you and I have not interacted much if at all, so forgive me for jumping in here, but I just wanted to tell you-peterjens does not give simple, straightforward answers. you get a lot of rhetoric, verses plucked out of context, and lecturing about how righteous he is. but no straight answers. just a heads-up.

Really. Does this not go down as deformation of character.
Trying to look up in the gifts of the spirit were this comes, or is it under
do not bear false witness against your neighbour. But then following God
was never your hot point...

 

[phil36]

Sin is actions that are a symptom of the heart that is dying.
Without Gods love at work within us, our hearts will decay and destroy us.

Everyones heart is different and different distortions develop. They fact they
will always develop without the Lord being present is the testimony of God.

From our perspective, with Gods presence and healing we can establish order
and life. It is really this simple.

I think gb9's point has been proven. What you are saying has nothing to do with the question at hand. You talk about evil desires etc etc, the question still remains when when does this corruption take place? is it in the womb or sometime later.

Lets be more precise so that it is easier to answer, do we inherit a sin nature or do you believe we do not have one.?

 

[StanJ]

If you notice, not all the Elect are saved. "Many are called but few are chosen." The Elect are Christians, but the Very Elect are Christians who obey properly- these will be saved. Jesus tells us of those who called Him "Lord" and said that they did things in His name "Christian", but He told them to go to hell. Because they may have believed in God and practiced doctrine, but it was not God"s doctrine that they practiced. They practiced manmade doctrine.

Now I want to know, how people can think that those who obey the wrong way can't make it into heaven, but that those who don't obey at all will. I seriously want to know how they can believe that, and so deceive themselves. I know it can't be because of simple belief in God, because those Jesus told to depart obviously believed in Him since the called Him "Lord." And even demons believe- so it can't be faith alone. How can the New Testament be chuck full of rules, and they convince themselves that they don't have to obey it?

"They worship Me IN VAIN (not resulting in salvation)- their doctrine is merely human rules."

"With flames of fire (hell) He will take vengeance on those who know not God, and who OBEY NOT the gospel of His Son."

Yes the elect are saved and that's the only way that can be called the elect if they are saved.

I'm not a huge fan of John Piper but in this regard I think he is right on.

What Is the Difference Between ‘Called’ and ‘Chosen’? | Desiring God

 

[StanJ]

Really. Does this not go down as deformation of character.
Trying to look up in the gifts of the spirit were this comes, or is it under
do not bear false witness against your neighbour. But then following God
was never your hot point...

I'm pretty sure the word you're looking for is defamation and I'm pretty sure he wasn't defaming you if he was telling the truth.

 

[PeterJens]

I think gb9's point has been proven. What you are saying has nothing to do with the question at hand. You talk about evil desires etc etc, the question still remains when when does this corruption take place? is it in the womb or sometime later.

Lets be more precise so that it is easier to answer, do we inherit a sin nature or do you believe we do not have one.?

The Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intention of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
Gen 6:5

The tongue of the righteous is choice silver; the heart of the wicked is of little worth.
Prov 10:20

The heart of the righteous ponders how to answer, but the mouth of the wicked pours out evil things.
Prov 15:28

Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God.
Matt 5:8

For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false witness, slander. 20 These are what defile a person.
Matt 15:19-20

You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.
Matt 22:37

The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately sick
Jeremiah 17:9

So where is your corruption.
If the heart can be cleansed and bring forth good things for a righteous man
it cannot be corrupted in and of itself.

So I see no corruption, I see an inevitable rebellion against God because of
how it has been made to exist in communion with God, without which it
destroys itself and dies.

 

[PeterJens]

We inherit from Adam an aloneness, and separation from God that will destroy
us inside.

The more we justify ourselves and our sinful acts and intentions the more it will
decay and destroy us.

One of the first lessons we learn is to pretend something to get attention,
lying, to manipulate. Once we go down this road it is difficult to stop.

Now if Jesus could not save our hearts and straighten us out, what is the point
of the witness of the church, or walking in the light, or over overcoming sin, and
being a good example if we have overcome nothing.

So the heart must be capable of being purified and set true to God and righteousness.

 

[StanJ]

We inherit from Adam an aloneness, and separation from God that will destroy
us inside.

The more we justify ourselves and our sinful acts and intentions the more it will
decay and destroy us.

One of the first lessons we learn is to pretend something to get attention,
lying, to manipulate. Once we go down this road it is difficult to stop.

Now if Jesus could not save our hearts and straighten us out, what is the point
of the witness of the church, or walking in the light, or over overcoming sin, and
being a good example if we have overcome nothing.

So the heart must be capable of being purified and set true to God and righteousness.

1 John 2:1
[FONT=&quot]My dear children,[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT][FONT=&quot] I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have an advocate[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT][FONT=&quot] with the Father—Jesus Christ, the Righteous One.[/FONT]

 

[Ariel82]

Lets be more precise so that it is easier to answer, do we inherit a sin nature or do you believe we do not have one.?

We inherit a sin nature from Adam. That is why we have to be born again in Christ.

Kids don't need to be taught how to sin, how to be selfish.

They need to learn to share and pray and listen to God's voice.

 

[Ariel82]

Some folks aren't theologians. That's not a crime.

 

[Ariel82]

1 Corinthians 15
For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive.

 

[dcontroversal]

Sin is actions that are a symptom of the heart that is dying.
Without Gods love at work within us, our hearts will decay and destroy us.

Everyones heart is different and different distortions develop. They fact they
will always develop without the Lord being present is the testimony of God.

From our perspective, with Gods presence and healing we can establish order
and life. It is really this simple.

This post is as far from the truth as one can be....the heart of every man is deceitfully wicked according to Jeremiah and we are ALREADY DEAD in trespasses and SIN.....shakes head in amazement concerning some of the "stuff" you come up with......!

 

[StanJ]

This post is as far from the truth as one can be....the heart of every man is deceitfully wicked according to Jeremiah and we are ALREADY DEAD in trespasses and SIN.....shakes head in amazement concerning some of the "stuff" you come up with......!

I agree, except that the dead part is 'effectually' dead not actually dead. When the Bible says the wages of sin is death, it means just that, our body will eventually die just as everyone has since Adam and Eve. Adam did not die physically the day he sinned, he died physically as a result of sin many years later and that is always the context of death when mentioned in the New Testament as relating to sin. The human Spirit never dies.

 

[Roughsoul1991]

If your not born again, You can obey God all day and night 24/7 and you would still be lost and headed to hell..

So your giving people a false hope..

I'm sorry I didn't know I was speaking to unbelievers in here. My statement was right as it was directed the people I am chating with. Don't just judge before you have all the facts.

 

[Roughsoul1991]

Yes, SHOW not establish. Big difference.

Nobody is questioning the fact that the demons "believe" (mental assent) that "there is one God" but where in this passage does it say that demons believe or trust in Jesus Christ for salvation? The faith of demons is only "mental assent." Their trust and reliance is in Satan, as demonstrated by their rebellion in heaven and continuous evil works. The word "believe" can describe "mere mental assent," as in James 2:19 or also include "trust and reliance" in Christ for salvation, as in Acts 16:31. Saving belief is more than just an "intellectual acknowledgment" to the existence and historical facts about Christ. Saving belief trusts exclusively in Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation.

Faith without works is an empty profession of faith, not genuine faith which is evidenced by works. Notice closely that James does not say that Abraham's work of offering up Isaac on the altar resulted in God's accounting Abraham as righteous. No! The accounting of Abraham's faith as righteousness was made in Genesis 15:6, many years before his work of offering up Isaac recorded in Genesis 22. The work of Abraham did not have some kind of intrinsic merit to save his soul, but it proved or manifested the genuineness of his faith. This is the sense in which Abraham was justified by works, "shown to be righteous."

Faith made perfect by works means bring to maturity, carry to the end, to complete like love in 1 John 4:18. It doesn't mean that Abraham was finally saved based on his works. When Abraham performed the good work in Genesis 22; he fulfilled the expectations created by the pronouncement of his faith in Genesis 15:6. The scripture was fulfilled in vindicating or demonstrating that Abraham believed God and was accounted as righteous. Abraham was accounted as righteous because of his faith in Genesis 15:6 long before he offered up Isaac on the altar and demonstrated the reality of his faith in Genesis 22.

They are not both united as the root of salvation. Faith is the root and good works are the fruit and we are saved FOR good works, NOT BY good works (Ephesians 2:8-10).

I agree as I always had. But people are thinking I'm suggesting works save us. When nothing I posted has said that. I have said salvation comes through Grace and faith as gifts from God. We can never lose Grace. But true faith radiates light. It shows a true love for God. We have works we are commanded to do. Faith=salvation salvation=planned good works.

Ask this question. Do you believe you yourself can say no to God?

I know I do, too many times to selfishness and the free will to do so. Now if I remained in my rebellion my faith would no longer be True. I have the choice because we are not puppets. I would lose my salvation in the end if I stayed in rebellion and people would notice my place with God by my actions. If I Got mad at God one day and just said I'll do things my way, my faith will no longer be True, salvation would be on the line, and my actions would show the kinda faith I have.

Losing salvation is not permanent in less your dead. It can be regained by repentance and free will to follow God.

The debate is not between faith and works but rather between dead, useless faith and a living faith. Without works faith is only a shadow of what it should be.

True faith brings salvation and in that we should see good works.

 

[Roughsoul1991]

[h=1]Romans 2:6-8Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)[/h][FONT=&quot]6 He will repay each one according to his works:[a] 7 eternal life to those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor, and immortality; 8 but wrath and indignation to those who are self-seeking and disobey the truth but are obeying unrighteousness;

We cannot be saved on just belief in Jesus. We are saved by a true relationship with Jesus. True salvation produces persistence in doing good to seek glory, honor, and immortality;
Now this affects saved but fallen away believers who return to unrightiousness, unbelievers, and as a warning to faithful servants of God.

but wrath and indignation to those who are self-seeking and disobey the truth but are obeying unrighteousness;

[/FONT]
[h=1]Matthew 16:24Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)[/h][h=3]Take Up Your Cross[/h][FONT=&quot]24 Then Jesus said to His disciples, “If anyone wants to come with Me, he must deny himself, take up his cross, and follow Me.

In order to go with Jesus we must follow Jesus. Or we will be like the young ruler a man who likes the idea of following Jesus but is not willing to carry his own cross. He must realize his actions will not save him. But his faith in Jesus. But he keeps asking what else I must do to follow you.

[/FONT]
[h=1]Matthew 19:16-22Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)[/h][h=3]The Rich Young Ruler[/h][FONT=&quot]16 Just then someone came up and asked Him, “Teacher, what good must I do to have eternal life?”[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]17 “Why do you ask Me about what is good?”[a] He said to him. “There is only One who is good.[b] If you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.”[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]18 “Which ones?” he asked Him. Jesus answered:[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]Do not murder;
do not commit adultery;
do not steal;
do not bear false witness;
19 honor your father and your mother;
and love your neighbor as yourself.[c][/FONT]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]20 “I have kept all these,”[d] the young man told Him. “What do I still lack?”[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]21 “If you want to be perfect,”[e] Jesus said to him, “go, sell your belongings and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow Me.”[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]22 When the young man heard that command, he went away grieving, because he had many possessions.[/FONT]

 

[phil36]

The Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intention of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
Gen 6:5

The tongue of the righteous is choice silver; the heart of the wicked is of little worth.
Prov 10:20

The heart of the righteous ponders how to answer, but the mouth of the wicked pours out evil things.
Prov 15:28

Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God.
Matt 5:8

For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false witness, slander. 20 These are what defile a person.
Matt 15:19-20

You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.
Matt 22:37

The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately sick
Jeremiah 17:9

So where is your corruption.
If the heart can be cleansed and bring forth good things for a righteous man
it cannot be corrupted in and of itself.

So I see no corruption, I see an inevitable rebellion against God because of
how it has been made to exist in communion with God, without which it
destroys itself and dies.

I don't know why you just don't just simply say you don't believe in the sin nature. but we can see above you don't.

 

[mailmandan]

[/B]
Mailman,
Can we not say that they are united because one causes the other??
We are saved FOR good works, not by good works.
OK.

But if good works MUST follow as even a sign, as some will say, then could we not say that God requires also the good works?

Faith is the root of salvation and good works are the fruit. No fruit at all would demonstrate there is no root.

Did Jesus not speak about being cut off of the vine of it does not bear fruit?
I fail to grasp the difference between what you are saying and what I'm saying.

In John 15, Jesus mentions branches that bear no fruit and branches that bear fruit (vs. 2) but Jesus says nothing about branches that bear fruit but then later stop bearing fruit.

When Jesus spoke these words in John 15, how many people at that time, prior to Him being glorified, had received the Holy Spirit and were baptized by one Spirit into one body? - "the body of Christ?" (1 Corinthians 12:13).

John 7:38 - He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water. 39 But this He spoke concerning the Spirit, whom those believing in Him would receive; for the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified. So "in me" is part of the metaphor of the vine, (in the vine) and not in the body of Christ under the New Covenant which was not yet fully established.

So in John 15, we see two kinds of connections with Christ as the vine (the merely cosmic which bears no fruit and the spiritual and vital which bears fruit). Without that vital union with Christ, there can be no life and no productivity. Those who profess to know Christ but whose relationship to Him is self-attached, He neither elected them, nor saved them, nor sustains them. Eventually, the dead self-attached fruitless branches are cut off.

It seems like we're saying the same thing, but then you seem to put works down in some way...
I only persist because I think this is dangerous for some out there who want to be Christian and do what they want, or do nothing, and still be a member of the Kingdom. So this is more for those following along than for you. Fran

I'm not putting works down, just clarifying that we are saved FOR good works and not by good works (Ephesians 2:10). Titus 3:8 - This is a faithful saying, and these things I want you to affirm constantly, that those who have believed in God should be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable to men.

I don't promote a license to sin either:

1 Corinthians 6:9 - Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, 10 nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.

Galatians 5:19 - Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality, 20 idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions, 21 envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

1 John 3:9 - No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

 

[mailmandan]

Romans 2:6-8Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)

6 He will repay each one according to his works:[a] 7 eternal life to those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor, and immortality; 8 but wrath and indignation to those who are self-seeking and disobey the truth but are obeying unrighteousness;

If one reads Romans 2:6-11 in isolation from the rest of the book of Romans, one might conclude that Paul was teaching salvation by works. However, as we read and study these passages, it's imperative to keep in mind that these verses do not describe how one becomes saved, but the way the saved conduct their lives. These works done are the result of, not the means or basis of receiving salvation. So patient continuance in well doing, seeking for glory, honor, and immortality; (vs. 7) is not at all set forth as the means of their procuring eternal life, but as a description of those to whom God does render life eternal.

Notice that ALL who receive eternal life are described as such, everyone who does good (vs. 10). Good deeds flow from a heart that is saved and evil deeds flow from a heart that is unsaved. Verse 8 - but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness--indignation and wrath. Notice that ALL who do not receive eternal life are described as such, everyone who does evil (vs. 9). What those passages convey is that though our deeds are judged by God, it's not the good deeds themselves which are the basis or means of our salvation, but the type of deeds expose whether our heart was saved, or not

We cannot be saved on just belief in Jesus. We are saved by a true relationship with Jesus.

We cannot be saved on just mere "mental assent" belief in Jesus. The belief that saves trusts in Jesus for salvation (Acts 10:43; 16:31). Those who truly believe and are saved have entered a relationship with Jesus (John 1:12; 17:3).

True salvation produces persistence in doing good to seek glory, honor, and immortality;

Amen! This is descriptive of believers.

Now this affects saved but fallen away believers who return to unrightiousness, unbelievers, and as a warning to faithful servants of God.

Where does the Bible say "lost salvation" or "un-born again?"

but wrath and indignation to those who are self-seeking and disobey the truth but are obeying unrighteousness;

This is descriptive of unbelievers.