How corrupt is the human heart?
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Lol.. Well some know this some don't but the verse numbers and chapters was a manmade invention to make the traversing of scripture easier and faster.. Looking thing up throughout the bible.. It can be a blessing and a curse depending on how experience one is.. Because if somebody doesn't really understand the full teaching of a certain letter chapter etc, that can easily lead to verses that rebuke other verses and IMO scripture wasn't meant to rebuke itself...
If you think that all Christians operate from a pure heart just get into one of these Christian forums and you will find out that it is not so(he,he). The heart is kind of like the Oval Office, it is where final decisions of the individual are made, in a word, it is what we REALLY believe. None of us by nature had, or even now have, nothing but pure and holy thoughts coming from out of our hearts. That is because we have the impute of the flesh nature and it is with us until the day we die. Our only hope is to steadfastly follow the leading of the Lord, however all we have to do is relax for a moment and the flesh nature jumps in for a contribution to our thinking. To sum this up, the heart of a Christian is not wicked because God changed our spirit, however the flesh nature is still a part of our being and will take control if we allow it to.
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I know right, lol.. I've put some verses through a word checker from a bible not going to mention don't want to offend anybody
But I was amazed at all the errors in punctuations and misspellings etc, well at least to what we use today as correct grammar and punctuation...
Here's a basic Example that is in some bibles, having a , before this ) like this,) using that today is considered improper punctuation...
But I was amazed at all the errors in punctuations and misspellings etc, well at least to what we use today as correct grammar and punctuation...
Here's a basic Example that is in some bibles, having a , before this ) like this,) using that today is considered improper punctuation...
Yep...they that are walking by the flesh are not living from their hearts in Christ - that is a gimmie!
Never confuse the flesh with the new creation that is in Christ - the inner man of the heart. We are not the flesh but we are responsible with what we do with our bodies now. What a blessing when the Lord comes and gives us new bodies that has no more the principle of sin still in it. ( rom. 7:23 )
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And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. in this verse it doesn't say how bad but must have been pretty disgusting to God, since He wiped them out.
O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh. In this verse Jesus was telling them that He could see their hearts through how they spoke.
A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things.
O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh. In this verse Jesus was telling them that He could see their hearts through how they spoke.
A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things.
Amen...a new body is going to be fantastic! For now though we have this treasure ( Christ Himself ) in an earthen vessel.
Christ is the treasure - get our true identity right and the good things of the treasure of Christ that is in our hearts will come forth. Walk by the spirit and we ill not fulfill the lusts of the flesh to do "it's" desires.
Getting our minds renewed to the truth of Christ's work for us is paramount IMO in order to walk out His life that is in our new hearts and through us to manifest His love and grace to others that need to know Him for who He truly is.
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Amen...we are not a "new evolution" - we are a new creation.
We are not trying to create this new creation - it is of God who has already been created us in Christ - but we do grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. This growing in Christ is actually the emerging new man being manifested outwardly as our minds become renewed to the truth of our real identity in Christ.
Beholding the glory/goodness of the Lord as in a mirror is how the Holy Spirit transforms us to reflect outwardly in our behavior who we already are in Christ in our new hearts. 2 Cor. 3:17-18
My goodness how our lives change when we know this truth - and we know that the flesh is not us so we don't have to obey it.
The enemy uses the voice of the flesh to make it seem that it is the real us and so we must be unclean in our heart. It's a trick to deceive us. But we are growing in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and we are not ignorant of the enemies' schemes of deception.
We are not trying to create this new creation - it is of God who has already been created us in Christ - but we do grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. This growing in Christ is actually the emerging new man being manifested outwardly as our minds become renewed to the truth of our real identity in Christ.
Beholding the glory/goodness of the Lord as in a mirror is how the Holy Spirit transforms us to reflect outwardly in our behavior who we already are in Christ in our new hearts. 2 Cor. 3:17-18
My goodness how our lives change when we know this truth - and we know that the flesh is not us so we don't have to obey it.
The enemy uses the voice of the flesh to make it seem that it is the real us and so we must be unclean in our heart. It's a trick to deceive us. But we are growing in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and we are not ignorant of the enemies' schemes of deception.
Hi Ariel,
You have a couple of great questions, which should make us think and ponder what scripture says on this. I can only give you what I believe scripture says - we have to bare in mind that all major branches of Christianity believe in 'original sin', I have not written out scripture but have given book/chapter for those who wish to have a study themselves.....it will pay of if you do. thats my prayer anyhow.
Q. Was Adam created with a "sin nature" or was sin placed upon him when he disobeyed God?
A. God created all things and said all that he made was good (Gen 1:31). Our first parents (Adam & Eve) were created with original righteousness and communion with God. But through their sin of eating from the tree of Knowledge of good and evil sinned against God. And therefore spiritually died, they died in their sin (Gen 2:17; Eph 2:1). Sin here is not just an outworking or an action based on ones own heart, it is wholly rebellion against God and affects every part of man -spiritually and physically (Gen 6:5; Titus 1:15; Jer 17:9; Rom 3:10 -19).
Adam and Eve were created good and righteous, but because of their sin, we have the Fall (Gen 3). This fall corrupted the 'image of God' in human nature - it has been blurred!). Adam and Eve from this point on had the knowledge of evil, their desires had changed from being righteous and in communion with God, to rebelling against Him in their hearts and minds.
That's the nuts and bolts of your first Question which leads nicely to the next one.
Q. Are we born with sin or does our hearts become corrupt when we fall to temptation and disobey God?
A. Adam and Eve being the 'root' of all humans, through them the guilt of this sin (rebellion/heart) was imputed to all humans (Gen 1:27-28; Gen 2:17-18. cf, Acts 17:26; Rom 5:12-19 and 1 Cor 15:21,22,49. All humans beings descend from Adam and Eve so share in the same death in sin (Eph 2:1) and corrupted nature (Ps 51:5; Gen 5:3; Job 14:4 and 15:14).
From this original corruption (original sin) our hearts are always inclined to evil and opposite to that which is good (Rom 3:10,11,12). See also Gen 6:5, many will try and tell you that this is only relevant from before the flood but carefully note Gen 8:21 after the flood. It is from this original sin (corruption) that proceeds all our actual sins (James 1:14-15; Matt 15:19).
So every sin both original and actual is a transgression against the law of God (1 John 3:4) and this very nature brings guilt on the sinner (Rom 2:15). Which subjects the sinner to the wrath of God (Eph 2:9), the curse of the law (Gal 3:10) and death (Rom 6:23).
"The doctrine of original sin teaches that people sin because we are sinners. It’s not that we are sinners because we sin, but rather, we sin because we are sinners; that is, since the fall of man, we have inherited a corrupted condition of sinfulness. We now have a sin nature. The New Testament says we are under sin; we have a disposition toward wickedness, so that we all do, in fact, commit sins because it is our nature to commit sins. But that’s not the nature that was originally given to us by God. We were originally innocent, but now the race has been plummeted into a state of corruption. (R C Sproul)"
"[so] When we speak of the fall and of original sin, we are not speaking of the first sin committed by Adam and Eve, we are speaking of the radical consequences of that sin, which followed to all future generations of mankind (R C Sproul)."
I have not discussed the good news of salvation in our Lord Jesus Christ as the questions were specific, and also the title of the OP was specific also. If we get this wrong we get salvation wrong. The thought that people are born neither good or evil, or born innocent cannot be found anywhere in scripture this is the view of pelagious and our current culture. As Jonathan Edwards notes if all people were born innocent you would expect atleast or up to 50% to to grow and never sin (RC Sproul quoting Edwards). We all know just by our own experience and looking at the world this is not true.
Let me summarise
1. Adam sinned so was separate from God, and doomed to die.
2. We inherit Adams condition.
3. Christ restores us to a pure heart with communion with God.
Some use the word corruption, original sin, but in essence innocence is removed.
The fly in the ointment is Pauls assertion children from believers are Holy, ie
redeemed before the age of responsibility.
My question was about the purity of believers.
Two aspects to this are a purified heart where the Holy Spirit dwells and the
defilement from sin which a believer commits. The spiritual war of sanctification
and obedience to the law of Christ is very real, and we all experience it.
Our language as to this description varies, but we are all agreed new converts
are a long way from walk in "righteousness" and the mature are much closer to
Christs footsteps. Instant perfectionism is absurd and not seen, while licentiousness
as a walk is also rejected.
The idea I am asking is, is real purity possible. It would appear, yes.
I say this because no one has produced a scripture that says we cannot be like
Christ as disciples, rather this is our hope and walk.
1. Adam sinned so was separate from God, and doomed to die.
2. We inherit Adams condition.
3. Christ restores us to a pure heart with communion with God.
Some use the word corruption, original sin, but in essence innocence is removed.
The fly in the ointment is Pauls assertion children from believers are Holy, ie
redeemed before the age of responsibility.
My question was about the purity of believers.
Two aspects to this are a purified heart where the Holy Spirit dwells and the
defilement from sin which a believer commits. The spiritual war of sanctification
and obedience to the law of Christ is very real, and we all experience it.
Our language as to this description varies, but we are all agreed new converts
are a long way from walk in "righteousness" and the mature are much closer to
Christs footsteps. Instant perfectionism is absurd and not seen, while licentiousness
as a walk is also rejected.
The idea I am asking is, is real purity possible. It would appear, yes.
I say this because no one has produced a scripture that says we cannot be like
Christ as disciples, rather this is our hope and walk.
The problem of unbelief
If you are not pure you want to explain why you have done everything, yet
there still is a block, guilt, unresolved issues.
Because temptation or knowledge of evil cannot be removed, but the effects
of sin can be healed and dealt with.
The condition of Adams separation from God lead us into sin, and without
getting right with God, we are sinners doomed to destruction.
Until we submit our authority before Christ we will resist any claim to our
throne or control. This is sin in and of itself, but is the very thing we inherit
by being separate from God, in rebellion, yet knowing good and evil.
I think this separation is sin itself, because implicit in it is the rejection of love
and life. Everything springs from this and without reestablishing communion
everything else flows, along with death.
Until we are forgiven, washed, purified, the bridge and rebellion always stand.
Adam brought separation of man from God, that meant men are doomed to die.
For if the many died by the trespass of the one man
Rom 5:15
For as in Adam all die
1 Cor 15:22
And just as we have borne the image of the earthly man
1 Cor 15:49
What are mortals, that they could be pure, or those born of woman, that they could be righteous?
Job 15:14
There is no one righteous, not even one; there is no one who understands;
there is no one who seeks God. All have turned away,
they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good,
not even one.
Rom 3:10-12
Who can bring what is pure from the impure? No one!
Job 14:4
Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me.
Psalm 51:5
but each person is tempted when they are dragged away by their own evil desire and enticed. 15 Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death.
James 1:14-15
For out of the heart come evil thoughts—murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false testimony, slander.
Matt 15:19
So Christ in bringing cleansing and forgiveness, re-establishes communion and
the walk of righteousness.
If you are not pure you want to explain why you have done everything, yet
there still is a block, guilt, unresolved issues.
Because temptation or knowledge of evil cannot be removed, but the effects
of sin can be healed and dealt with.
The condition of Adams separation from God lead us into sin, and without
getting right with God, we are sinners doomed to destruction.
Until we submit our authority before Christ we will resist any claim to our
throne or control. This is sin in and of itself, but is the very thing we inherit
by being separate from God, in rebellion, yet knowing good and evil.
I think this separation is sin itself, because implicit in it is the rejection of love
and life. Everything springs from this and without reestablishing communion
everything else flows, along with death.
Until we are forgiven, washed, purified, the bridge and rebellion always stand.
Adam brought separation of man from God, that meant men are doomed to die.
For if the many died by the trespass of the one man
Rom 5:15
For as in Adam all die
1 Cor 15:22
And just as we have borne the image of the earthly man
1 Cor 15:49
What are mortals, that they could be pure, or those born of woman, that they could be righteous?
Job 15:14
There is no one righteous, not even one; there is no one who understands;
there is no one who seeks God. All have turned away,
they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good,
not even one.
Rom 3:10-12
Who can bring what is pure from the impure? No one!
Job 14:4
Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me.
Psalm 51:5
but each person is tempted when they are dragged away by their own evil desire and enticed. 15 Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death.
James 1:14-15
For out of the heart come evil thoughts—murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false testimony, slander.
Matt 15:19
So Christ in bringing cleansing and forgiveness, re-establishes communion and
the walk of righteousness.
The understanding of the circumcision of Christ where the new creation in Christ is "cut away" from the flesh is a life changing revelation of the wonderful awesome work that our Lord did when we died with Him on the cross and rose again to being a new creation - joined as one spirit with Him for eternity - sealed by the Holy Spirit who raised Jesus from the dead.
The truth is that Jesus has already saved us from our sins. If we don't know that - then a lot of the good news of what Jesus did will be a blurr to us.
We will end up searching for sin in our lives constantly and I have news for all of us. There will be sin in our flesh until we get rid of theses bodies.
We will be constantly trying to clean up the flesh but the only way to not fulfill the lusts of the flesh is by the Spirit in us.
That is why the circumcision of Christ is imperative to understand in order to grow up in Christ.
Abraham's circumcision was a shadow of being circumcised in Christ now from our flesh. We are cut away from the flesh and our inner man of the new creation - our new spirit created in righteousness and holiness in Christ.
What do we do with the old flesh that is cut away? We throw it out and you can not have it put back on as it is dead. The same goes for our spiritual circumcision in which our flesh is cut away from our inner man - the spirit where Christ dwells.
We are completely sealed by the Holy Spirit within our spirit in our circumcision in Christ.
Understanding spiritual circumcision is important to get a revelation of the new creation in Christ now and to the understanding that our new hearts are pure now because our heart and Christ are one spirit - created in righteousness and holiness - by the incorruptible seed of God which abides forever.
When scriptures talk about the circumcision ( cutting away from) of the heart and of the flesh - it is 2 sides of the same coin.
Romans 2:29 (NASB)
[SUP]29[/SUP] But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.
Colossians 2:11 (NASB)
[SUP]11[/SUP] and in Him you were also circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, in the removal of the body of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ;
The truth is that Jesus has already saved us from our sins. If we don't know that - then a lot of the good news of what Jesus did will be a blurr to us.
We will end up searching for sin in our lives constantly and I have news for all of us. There will be sin in our flesh until we get rid of theses bodies.
We will be constantly trying to clean up the flesh but the only way to not fulfill the lusts of the flesh is by the Spirit in us.
That is why the circumcision of Christ is imperative to understand in order to grow up in Christ.
Abraham's circumcision was a shadow of being circumcised in Christ now from our flesh. We are cut away from the flesh and our inner man of the new creation - our new spirit created in righteousness and holiness in Christ.
What do we do with the old flesh that is cut away? We throw it out and you can not have it put back on as it is dead. The same goes for our spiritual circumcision in which our flesh is cut away from our inner man - the spirit where Christ dwells.
We are completely sealed by the Holy Spirit within our spirit in our circumcision in Christ.
Understanding spiritual circumcision is important to get a revelation of the new creation in Christ now and to the understanding that our new hearts are pure now because our heart and Christ are one spirit - created in righteousness and holiness - by the incorruptible seed of God which abides forever.
When scriptures talk about the circumcision ( cutting away from) of the heart and of the flesh - it is 2 sides of the same coin.
Romans 2:29 (NASB)
[SUP]29[/SUP] But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.
Colossians 2:11 (NASB)
[SUP]11[/SUP] and in Him you were also circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, in the removal of the body of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ;
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