BEHOLD, THE BRIDEGROOM COMETH
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The time lines of Dan. and Rev must agree.
The time of the 4th beast began when Rome invaded Israel.
The Sea Beast (civil Rome) and the Earth Beast (religious Rome/Caesar worship) in Israel began then.
It was already in force for almost 100 yrs by Jesus's time.
The Rev is written to the 7 churches of Asia, "gentile" congregations..
So we can assume that the warning about the 4th beast included them, which it did.
As gentiles the warning was probably something they were already aware of,
But as gentiles, they might not have understood the way the Jewish Christians did, having studied the scriptures.
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It could also be understood that this prophecy about the Beast, (4th beast,Rome)
Has been applicable to every Christian since then.
I don't see the Rev as a warning about the destruction of Jerusalem.
Not everything in the Bible was fulfilled by 70 ad, I don't believe that, there are some that do.
The chapter of Dan 2 was written in Babylon at the time of the head of gold,
There were things ahead for them that we see in hindsight now.
They didn't know who the future beast/nations were.
As time went by, things were revealed.
The gentile nations of the statue rule over Israel until they are restored to Jerusalem, 1967.
The 4th the gentile nation was revealed to be Rome and Caesar as the head at the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 ad.
Rev is a description of the rule of the gentile nation Rome, 4th beast, over the natural branches, until the restoration of Israel to Jerusalem, and the beginning of eternity.
The destruction of Jerusalem is indicated (6th seal), but that is not the center of the message.
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You might want to compare the 3 1/2 times that the 4th beast of Dan 7:25, and Rev 13:5.
I don't think I said that, did I?
I don't believe that all of Rev was fulfilled by 70 ad.
The time of the 4th beast began when Rome invaded Israel.
The Sea Beast (civil Rome) and the Earth Beast (religious Rome/Caesar worship) in Israel began then.
It was already in force for almost 100 yrs by Jesus's time.
The Rev is written to the 7 churches of Asia, "gentile" congregations..
So we can assume that the warning about the 4th beast included them, which it did.
As gentiles the warning was probably something they were already aware of,
But as gentiles, they might not have understood the way the Jewish Christians did, having studied the scriptures.
---
It could also be understood that this prophecy about the Beast, (4th beast,Rome)
Has been applicable to every Christian since then.
I don't see the Rev as a warning about the destruction of Jerusalem.
Not everything in the Bible was fulfilled by 70 ad, I don't believe that, there are some that do.
The chapter of Dan 2 was written in Babylon at the time of the head of gold,
There were things ahead for them that we see in hindsight now.
They didn't know who the future beast/nations were.
As time went by, things were revealed.
The gentile nations of the statue rule over Israel until they are restored to Jerusalem, 1967.
The 4th the gentile nation was revealed to be Rome and Caesar as the head at the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 ad.
Rev is a description of the rule of the gentile nation Rome, 4th beast, over the natural branches, until the restoration of Israel to Jerusalem, and the beginning of eternity.
The destruction of Jerusalem is indicated (6th seal), but that is not the center of the message.
-----
You might want to compare the 3 1/2 times that the 4th beast of Dan 7:25, and Rev 13:5.
I don't think I said that, did I?
I don't believe that all of Rev was fulfilled by 70 ad.
If you are saying that the "wrath",the seals ect. are opened and set into action in the world starting in ad70 then if they are poured out on those who have the mark of the beast,worship the image ect. then the only way possible is for those who received the wrath to have had the mark,name ect. before the punishment. So also if the seals,wrath ect. that is poured out on those who did have the mark,image,name ect. and not those with the mark of God in their foreheads then by ad70(when you say the seals were opened and began being implemented) both have to be sealed in their foreheads before any of the wrath of God begins. That's the point of what I keep saying "if the punishment begins in ad70,then the reason why they are being punished happened before ad70" So if Rev. is written to the 7 churches in Asia then it was written after they were in the world(existed),,and before the Rev. was written. So somewhere between their establishment and the Rev. which would be after Paul(apostle to the gentiles) Ephesus,Laodicea ect. So the 7th head,the ten horns,the two horned beast,the eight head,the mark,the image the name ect. all have to fit between the 7 churches in Asia's establishment and ad70 for God to begin punishment for the things mentioned in the Revelation. In Daniel it sets out 7 weeks,490 years up to Christ, 4th beast ect. but never warns anyone about an mark,name ect. and it is sealed. If the Revelation after the lamb was slain (Rev.5:9-12) is opened it covers the things that were sealed at the end of Daniel until a future time. If not and the things happening in ad70 were because they had all either received the mark of the beast or the mark of God then the Revelation was not given at a time to be of any use to the 7 churches. So if the Rev. was given after the 7 Churches were established approx.ad40-69 and the punishment(wrath) begins in ad70 everything from Rome to the wrath has to have happened before ad70 and not before ad45ish. I say this because up to Acts 11:19 it was only preached to the Jews so there were not yet 7 churches in Asia. So between Acts 11 and ad70 is when the 7 Churches were established in Asia and if Smyrna had know the Lord yet by then. So before the things are even began to be implemented as wrath on the ones who received the mark,name ect. those things have to first come and then be fulfilled. If not Jesus revealed the Revelation 26 to late.
Now look at the kingdom and bare in mind the mark,name ect.
In revelation it describes three different ages,times,time periods(choose the word you like,lol)
Focus on the Millennial kingdom or 1000 years when that time begins the devil is bound and put in the pit (Rev.20:2-3) so he has no influence on the earth during this time period. In Rev.19:20 the beast and the false prophet are cast into the lake of fire and so they also have no influence on the earth or it's people. So it is a time where all three are not in the world and have no influence.
Now look back to Matthew 24 and notice that Jesus says "when you see the AoD..." and so if he says it was still coming then it is before the 1000 years(it had not began) because the beast is still in the world and not in the LoF yet according to Jesus. Then notice that he says false prophets would arise and so then they were not yet cast into the lake of fire yet either. Then jump forward to Johns letter where he describes the spirit of Antichrist as in the world so they are still there and not yet in the LoF. Then notice the words of Paul in Thess. where he speaks of the man of sin to be revealed in future tense as if he had not yet been cast into the lake of fire. Then to Peters letters where he speaks of those who would say that all continues as before. So to all the apostles if you notice the beast and the false prophet were still in the world and not yet in the lake of fire.
So had the 1000 years began yet in their minds? or did they seem to think that the beast and the false prophet were still in the world and not yet cast into the lake of fire?
In revelation it describes three different ages,times,time periods(choose the word you like,lol)
Focus on the Millennial kingdom or 1000 years when that time begins the devil is bound and put in the pit (Rev.20:2-3) so he has no influence on the earth during this time period. In Rev.19:20 the beast and the false prophet are cast into the lake of fire and so they also have no influence on the earth or it's people. So it is a time where all three are not in the world and have no influence.
Now look back to Matthew 24 and notice that Jesus says "when you see the AoD..." and so if he says it was still coming then it is before the 1000 years(it had not began) because the beast is still in the world and not in the LoF yet according to Jesus. Then notice that he says false prophets would arise and so then they were not yet cast into the lake of fire yet either. Then jump forward to Johns letter where he describes the spirit of Antichrist as in the world so they are still there and not yet in the LoF. Then notice the words of Paul in Thess. where he speaks of the man of sin to be revealed in future tense as if he had not yet been cast into the lake of fire. Then to Peters letters where he speaks of those who would say that all continues as before. So to all the apostles if you notice the beast and the false prophet were still in the world and not yet in the lake of fire.
So had the 1000 years began yet in their minds? or did they seem to think that the beast and the false prophet were still in the world and not yet cast into the lake of fire?
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Matt 24:22, "And except those days should be shortened, there should be no flesh be saved:...."
Jesus still cares about the natural branches/ flesh of Israel.
Cut off, but still able to enter the Kingdom as anyone is.
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Does scripture indicate, a return of the flesh of Israel to the city of Jerusalem?
Is this Israel in Jerusalem today, a fulfillment of prophecy, being the flesh descendants of Israel?
Do they, as a nation, accept Jesus? (well, it would be good)
There could be many who have become Christians, but we just aren't aware of them presently,
1 Kings 19:18, "Yet I have left me seven thousand in Israel, all the knees which have not bowed unto Baal,...."
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Is death shown being destroyed in Rev 20?
Is the resurrection at Jesus's coming shown in the Rev? 1 Cor 15:23-28, 23-24.
If it is,
It would put at least parts of the Rev past 70 ad.
Yes there you go if they last well beyond that point then the heads need one more head,7th then the 10 kingdoms,then the 8th, then after this the two horned beast then the image and the mark and if they are still in the world and not yet in the lake of fire then the 1000 years cannot begin on earth.
The 7 heads are the lifetime of the Roman Empire.
When Rome fell in 476 ad it became the 10 kingdoms horns/toes (complete division), but still Roman.
The 8th Head was Caesar after the fall, the Bishop of Rome/Vatican.
The 8th head exists at the time of the the kings/ Roman nations.
He lives from the fall of Rome until Perdition, spiritual destruction, which is yet to come.
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Remember that the Rev is not one continual time line,
and that the 7 times are not literal years.
When Rome fell in 476 ad it became the 10 kingdoms horns/toes (complete division), but still Roman.
The 8th Head was Caesar after the fall, the Bishop of Rome/Vatican.
The 8th head exists at the time of the the kings/ Roman nations.
He lives from the fall of Rome until Perdition, spiritual destruction, which is yet to come.
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Remember that the Rev is not one continual time line,
and that the 7 times are not literal years.
What sticks out at me about the beast that was and was not yet is,even he is the eighth ect., The one in Rev.17:8 is that at the time the Rev. was received, Approx.ad96, the angel says to John that he would tell him the mystery(of more than this one beast) but that it "was"(existed before ad96), was "not"(so it wasn't present in the world) yet "is"( was in the pit and not yet in the LoF) and it was at a future time to ad96 going to ascend out of the pit.
So in other words at some time between the creation and ad96 this beast had been in the world and that something happened and they were at that present time(ad96) already bound in the pit. So it had been in the world at some point in the worlds history and was not yet ascended out of the pit and did the things written of it in the Rev.. So it is not something new in the world at all it's an image of a beast that existed in the world before this point.
Now so at some time between ad96(approx) and now(2017) is where it "ascends" the Church existed before ad96 but at the time the Rev. was given the Church was still active in the world the Revelation given to John is an testimony to the Church still being in the world and not in the pit in ad96 so it is excluded from this. The Vatican under Rome did not exist before ad96 in the earth and seeing that it was not in the world between the creation and ad96 it could not be said that it "ascended" when it became into existence after ad96.
So there is whatever existed in the world between the creation and the flood and up to the point of ad96 so there are the angels that fell bound in chains until the judgement, the people who were all as one at babel that God dispersed,the Amorites whose time was not yet full ect.ect And one also not to forget would be Israel that is if the Rev. is given after ad70 she did not exist and it could be said that it could ascend out of the pit.
Now Rome was not in the pit in ad96 it was still a nation. Egypt was still a nation and was not in the pit. In ad96 Greece was not in the pit,nor was Assyria, Babylon was still a nation,and Meda Persia. So if the prophecies are about the nations of the world and or the kingdoms that would have rule over the whole face of the earth the Amortie's did not nor did they have rule over Israel. The ones that were destroyed in Sier before Esau nor the ones driven out of Ar where Lot dwelt ruled the world. So all are either present in ad96 and not in the pit or not applicable because they were not a beast that ruled the world. Only the one from before the flood and Israel both ruled the world and did not exist in ad96 and it could be said that they were and were not and would ascend out of the bottomless pit.
Hello iamsoandso,
First of all, I agree with you regarding the meaning of the beast who:
Once was = He was previously not in the Abyss, but was out in the world
Now is not = He is currently not in the world, but is in the Abyss
And yet will come = He will once again be coming out of the Abyss at a future time
The problem that you have in stating that he came out of the Abyss at 96 AD, is that the book of Revelation was written at that time, but John is speaking of his coming out of the Abyss in the future tense. In addition, if the beast was to have come out of the Abyss at 96 AD, then the events that are written about him would have had to have been fulfilled, such as his killing of the two witnesses when he comes up out of the Abyss, we have not seen anything regarding the two witnesses themselves, nor the plagues that they are to bring upon the entire earth.
In addition, the beast is identified as that angel of the Abyss "destroyer" who is the king of those demonic beings of the Abyss who are released at the sounding of the 5th trumpet. You would think that there would be some record in history of demonic beings that resemble locusts, horses prepared for battle, with breastplates like iron, with tails and stings like scorpions, who torment the inhabitants of the earth for five months. Yet, not one record of that event.
This beast is currently still in the Abyss and will be released when the 5th trumpet is sounded, as an actual fallen angel, not as representing a nation or city. As of yet, the 1st seal has not yet sounded, but will be once the church has been removed from the earth and not before.
First of all, I agree with you regarding the meaning of the beast who:
Once was = He was previously not in the Abyss, but was out in the world
Now is not = He is currently not in the world, but is in the Abyss
And yet will come = He will once again be coming out of the Abyss at a future time
The problem that you have in stating that he came out of the Abyss at 96 AD, is that the book of Revelation was written at that time, but John is speaking of his coming out of the Abyss in the future tense. In addition, if the beast was to have come out of the Abyss at 96 AD, then the events that are written about him would have had to have been fulfilled, such as his killing of the two witnesses when he comes up out of the Abyss, we have not seen anything regarding the two witnesses themselves, nor the plagues that they are to bring upon the entire earth.
In addition, the beast is identified as that angel of the Abyss "destroyer" who is the king of those demonic beings of the Abyss who are released at the sounding of the 5th trumpet. You would think that there would be some record in history of demonic beings that resemble locusts, horses prepared for battle, with breastplates like iron, with tails and stings like scorpions, who torment the inhabitants of the earth for five months. Yet, not one record of that event.
This beast is currently still in the Abyss and will be released when the 5th trumpet is sounded, as an actual fallen angel, not as representing a nation or city. As of yet, the 1st seal has not yet sounded, but will be once the church has been removed from the earth and not before.
When I said he would have to ascend somewhere between ad96 and 2017 I intended it as a variable between the two. If it is Israel the one that ascended out of the pit in 1948 then it ascended 69 years ago. If it is the one that ruled the world before the flood then it is either not yet understood,seen realized or it could still rise after 2017.
The premise as to how i explained what I did was to show that it was something that fit the description in scripture of it and to set forth the different possibles that could be looked at as who or what could fit the things described in scripture.
It is also something that crossed my mind about Rev.5 and the Locust that ascend out of the pit and have a king,Appolyon,Abbadon ect. and why is that it is said that thy are in the pit,present tense to ad96 also but when they come I notice that it is not given to them to torment those who have the mark of God in their foreheads. The beast that was,was not yet is when he ascends out of the pit does have power over the saints and kills them.
Good evening iamsoandso,
In answer to your question, here is the actual verse:
"They were told not to harm the grass of the earth or any plant or tree, but only those people who did not have the seal of God on their foreheads. They were not allowed to kill them but only to torture them for five months."
So according to the scripture above, these demonic beings are commanded to harm all of the inhabitants of the earth, except for those who have the seal of God on their foreheads. That said, we know from Rev.7:1-8, that only the 144,000 from the twelve tribes of Israel will be sealed. Their sealing is not to be confused with what Paul said regarding all believers being sealed by the Holy Spirit, but they will be literally sealed on the forehead, which will be visible to those locust demons whom they won't be allowed to torment.
The fact that they are locked up in the Abyss and God created the Abyss, would demonstrate that they are fallen angels/demons. Their kings is the angel/demon of the Abyss. They belong to Satan, but God will use them to carry out his wrath upon the inhabitants of the earth who have rejected His Son and who continue to live according to the sinful nature.
In answer to your question, here is the actual verse:
"They were told not to harm the grass of the earth or any plant or tree, but only those people who did not have the seal of God on their foreheads. They were not allowed to kill them but only to torture them for five months."
So according to the scripture above, these demonic beings are commanded to harm all of the inhabitants of the earth, except for those who have the seal of God on their foreheads. That said, we know from Rev.7:1-8, that only the 144,000 from the twelve tribes of Israel will be sealed. Their sealing is not to be confused with what Paul said regarding all believers being sealed by the Holy Spirit, but they will be literally sealed on the forehead, which will be visible to those locust demons whom they won't be allowed to torment.
The fact that they are locked up in the Abyss and God created the Abyss, would demonstrate that they are fallen angels/demons. Their kings is the angel/demon of the Abyss. They belong to Satan, but God will use them to carry out his wrath upon the inhabitants of the earth who have rejected His Son and who continue to live according to the sinful nature.
These locusts that come out of the Abyss at the sounding of the 5th trumpet, are not representing Israel or Rome or any other nation or city. These things are demonic beings that have the appearance of locusts, horses prepared for battle with breastplates like iron, faces like human faces, teeth like lions teeth, hair like women's hair and tails and stings like that of a scorpion. Their description is very detailed. In addition, their kings is said to be the angel of the Abyss. These are not representing any people or nations, but demonic being that will come up out of the Abyss at the sounding of the 5th trumpet.
I personally believe that the reason that the 5th, 6th and 7th trumpets are referred to as "woes" is because all three of them are demonic in nature.
I personally believe that the reason that the 5th, 6th and 7th trumpets are referred to as "woes" is because all three of them are demonic in nature.