How corrupt is the human heart?

[garee]

Martin Luther: Two Kinds of Righteousness

See he calls it two types of righteousness.

Two kinds of righteousness, the righteousness of Christ that comes from a work of Christ’s faith( It is the work of God’s faith working in us by which we can believe God )and self-righteousness coming the imaginations of one’s own heart. No one with be found with a righteousness of their self (self-righteous)

Identify the person of faith that does the work of faith . Can’t separate faith from works.

Phi 3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:.....(His faith not that of our own selves lest any man in false pride boast in vain.)

Rom 3:3 For what if some did not believe? "shall their unbelief" make the faith of God without effect?

 

[Grace777x70]

Two kinds of righteousness, the righteousness of Christ that comes from a work of Christ’s faith( It is the work of God’s faith working in us by which we can believe God )and self-righteousness coming the imaginations of one’s own heart. No one with be found with a righteousness of their self (self-righteous)

Identify the person of faith that does the work of faith . Can’t separate faith from works.

Phi 3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:.....(His faith not that of our own selves lest any man in false pride boast in vain.)

Rom 3:3 For what if some did not believe? "shall their unbelief" make the faith of God without effect?

Here we have Paul using sounds wo0rds to convey the different righteousnesses. One is God's alone and the other is "our own righteousness" by what we do - which is what the Law was based on.

Phi 3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:.....(His faith not that of our own selves lest any man in false pride boast in vain.)

 

[PeterJens]

In my experience people who are self righteous do not know the meaning of brokenness
before the cross, the humbling of self justification before the throne of grace.

Repentance and confession is this bowing and opening up a heart to the need to be
loved and accepted as we are, lost vessels on an ocean of life without a captain
to chart the way home.

We are without worth if judged because we fail, but once restored, purified and
cleansed bright lights in a world of darkness, who shine true from within.

Now as a testimony, only one has consistently talked with those who hold this flame,
and maybe things are more mysterious than they realise in their own hearts.

In many things an aspect of truth can be there, but taken wrongly end up in error.
So we are born mystically from on High through His word. But our hearts can be
washed, made clean, purified so the wick of the Holy Spirit burns bright.

So condemnation and being compromised to judgement steals the inheritance of the
cross, yet sounds right for people first stumbling into the spiritual realm, but not
entering by the gate. Once here, they feel to go back is to surrender to the enemy,
satan, who is condemning them every day, while all they are seeing is God calling them
to open up and repent, in total surrender to His ways, giving up lawlessness for the
ways of the cross, to trust His word, and His guidance above the ways of the world.

My heart longs for many brothers and sisters to bow in equal adoration at our King,
and know the poverty of our hearts to see His blazing light of holiness and purity.

 

[psalm6819]

we are ALREADY DEAD in trespasses and SIN

Can a sinful heart have communion with God. No.
Because its very state rejects God from speaking to it.

The sinful heart rebels and is so chaotic it is dead to God.

But the redeemed heart is the temple of the Holy Spirit.
It is a Holy place, pure, spotless, clean.

Now some peoples theology implies people are not truly cleansed
or redeemed, so how can they by Holy and clean.

God seeks out the sinnner.....He called to Adam and Eve, He sought out Cain, He has a history of searching for lost sheep...."while we were yet sinners"ring a bell for anyone?

 

[Stephen63]

??? Jesus calls us clean and pure, washed by the blood of the Lamb.

Yet it's up to us with the Spirit leading us to keep us that way.

 

[Stephen63]

We are not a new evolution or becoming a new creation. We are a new creation in Christ when we receive Christ. We don't make ourselves a new creation.

We do not create our own righteousness - this is called self-righteousness. We have become the righteousness of God in Christ.

Get this wrong and we create a works-based humanistic mindset that actually denies the very grace of God in our lives that is needed to renew our minds to the realities of Christ that is already in our new heart.

It's the same principle as a baby is not becoming a human and when it grows up it will be then a real human. It's identity when born is that it is already a human. Feed the human what it needs to grow and it will mature to be what is already inside of it. To manifest what it truly is.

This too is how we grow in Christ by grace and the knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ and beholding the Lord as in a mirror - the Holy Spirit transforms us as we participate with Him in reflecting the life and grace of God towards others. 2 Cor. 3:17-18

We are a new creation, true. Our righteousness in Christ is what we must possess to make it in.

But we are not complete yet. We start as babes & labor towards maturity. That is an ongoing process that's not automatic, nor will it happen by just looking at Christ.

Many looked at Jesus when He walked the earth, Many more called out to Him, yet they remained unchanged.

Why? Because of their reasons & attitude for doing so. In the story of the woman with the issue of blood, hundreds, perhaps thousands, thronged Him & called out to Him.

But in the midst of the crowd people grabbing, pushing & shoving, Jesus said "who touched me?"

Only one in her desperation, overriding OT law with her illness, dared to reach out in faith believing against everything.

- And only she got a miracle that day.

 

[Stephen63]

I would offer. God is not served by human hands/will. I don't think anyone said Him calling us to repent is not part of the growth He causes as new creatures. Others can bring the gospel by planting the seed of it and another can water it with the water of the word as led by the Spirit. For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. He makes our yoke easier as He does work in us to both will and do His good pleasure .(imputed righteousness )

I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase.So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase.Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour.For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building. 1Co 3:6

That says nothing to how we grow. Yes, we need teachers, but that's not the subject.
Sooooo.....

Originally Posted by Stephen63
How do we grow in grace?

Christ died once for all, according to you we died already to sin, we don't die daily & subdue the old man every day, we don't repent anymore, we don't get convicted of sin anymore, we don't confess sin anymore..... so how do we grow/mature?

 

[PeterJens]

I remember someone saying wolves could become sheep, and wolves were immature
believers.

Jesus went out to save the lost wolf and turn them into a found sheep.

Now a wolf would teach such rubbish, because it is not scriptural, and Christs concepts
and ideas mean little to them.

I have seen one hardened heart to love, turn to God and seek His healing.
If others would do the same, then things would change.

Theology reflects the heart condition. If you have a good heart you will see
Christ and agree with Him. Can the rebellious know this clarity? I doubt it,
based on what I have seen and known. People are given one shot and they
choose the model they wish to follow.

 

[Ariel82]

Wolves are wolves. However many paranoid sheep label others wolves when they are not.

Perhaps it's because their lamp has running low on oil?

 

[psalm6819]

I remember someone saying wolves could become sheep, and wolves were immature
believers.

Jesus went out to save the lost wolf and turn them into a found sheep. *

Now a wolf would teach such rubbish, because it is not scriptural, and Christs concepts
and ideas mean little to them.

I have seen one hardened heart to love, turn to God and seek His healing.
If others would do the same, then things would change.

Theology reflects the heart condition. If you have a good heart you will see
Christ and agree with Him. Can the rebellious know this clarity? I doubt it,
based on what I have seen and known.**

* That's EXACTLY what Jesus does and you think it's not scriptural????????

 

[PeterJens]

* That's EXACTLY what Jesus does and you think it's not scriptural????????

I think you have miss-understood what is the difference between a wolf and
a sheep.

A wolf intension is always exploitation and domination, using a situation for their
own ends.

A sheep is someone who thinks of issues and for justifiable reasons pursues it.
Sheep like Saul can work for wolves, but actually their heart is open but they
are going in the wrong direction.

But then someone is trying to teach me not from scripture but from their
own group, and whatever teaching they have invented.

Innocense about sin is important in repentance. If you are a homicidal maniac
they do not tend to break down in tears repenting of their behaviour, they actually
enjoy it.

There are many people driven by their own demons who harm others, but very often
they are aware of the tension between their internal turmoil and the harm they are doing.
This is a typical sinner being a slave to sin, while desiring they could become something
different.

 

[phil36]

Hi Peter,

I am not quite sure were you get this stuff from:

I remember someone saying wolves could become sheep, and wolves were immature
believers.

If wolves are the lost then the found (sheep) cannot be wolves. A better thing to bear in mind would be:

“Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves (Matt 7:15)."

 

[PeterJens]

Hi Peter,

I am not quite sure were you get this stuff from:

I remember someone saying wolves could become sheep, and wolves were immature
believers.
Jesus went out to save the lost wolf and turn them into a found sheep. *
Now a wolf would teach such rubbish, because it is not scriptural, and Christs concepts
and ideas mean little to them.

* That's EXACTLY what Jesus does and you think it's not scriptural????????

It comes from a school of thinking that does not have proper scriptural boundaries, lol

 

[PeterJens]

What is the difference between a wolf and a sheep?

Wolves hunt to eat sheep, and like meat, while sheep desire vegetables and just get
on with life.

Gods sheep listen to His voice and follow Him, amen.

 

[Ariel82]

Some sheep have scrapie.

NSEI: Scrapie Fact Sheet

 

[phil36]

It comes from a school of thinking that does not have proper scriptural boundaries, lol

I get you now Peter..it didn't come from you. But another forum writer.

 

[Grace777x70]

* That's EXACTLY what Jesus does and you think it's not scriptural????????

I agree that God can save even those wolves that are amongst us. God is not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance. Come to rely on what Christ has already done and not on their own self-righteousness.

To me I can sense wolf-like behavior when they bite and tear at others with their words. These could also just be baby Christians too acting up in the flesh. Tares look just like wheat and Jesus said to let them be and the angels will separate them from the true believers in Him at the end of the age.

Galatians 5:15-16 (NASB)
[SUP]15 [/SUP] But if you bite and devour one another, take care that you are not consumed by one another.

[SUP]16 [/SUP] But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh.

 

[PeterJens]

I agree that God can save even those wolves that are amongst us.

I wonder who G7 is referring to.

A wolf is the opposite of a sheep. And what matters is how we walk, the love we share,
and the joy that is our blessing in the Lord.

Why did Jesus die? Because he would change the power structures of the day, who feared
anyone who suggested things were not quite as they should be.

For the temple authorities, Christ was a new world, and all they represented would be swept
away. So in one sense He was a real threat, which was, was he the Messiah?

We walk with our Lord to bring praise to His name.

Wolves only distract from this and desire to destroy the testimony of the people of God.

 

[Ariel82]

Wolves are typically demon possessed or lead. Different from just lost people in that they actively seek to devour sheep.

However, Jesus can cast out the demons or reveal himself to them. So they can be saved. Just not by our words or convincing monologues.

Saul killed Christians, yet after meeting Jesus became the Apostle Paul.

 

[PeterJens]

Wolves are typically demon possessed or lead. Different from just lost people in that they actively seek to devour sheep.

However, Jesus can cast out the demons or reveal himself to them. So they can be saved. Just not by our words or convincing monologues.

Saul killed Christians, yet after meeting Jesus became the Apostle Paul.

Their teaching will spread like gangrene. Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus, who have departed from the truth. They say that the resurrection has already taken place, and they destroy the faith of some.
2 Tim 2:17-18

Among them are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have handed over to Satan to be taught not to blaspheme.
1 Tim 1:20

I have a problem with saying false teachers or wolves are demon possessed or lead.
I would say they are not built on Christ or do not know Him. Paul implies they could
be rebellious believers.

Paul did not believe that false teachers were not necessarily unbelievers even, or
else why would he hand them over to satan.