Once saved, always saved. Chosen elect of God?

[FranC]

i havent read too many of the responses on this thread so forgive me if anything i say was brought up before . ive studied this subject thoroughly years ago and came to a lot of conclusions about it that go against both what people are taught and believe about the subject in todays churches. i didnt like the conclusions i had to come to but scripture demands them. to be honest, ive forgotten alot about this subject since i studied it because of health issues but without getting too involved with this discussion , i will say a few things that you need to think about.

when studying any biblical subject , first and foremost , ask yourself what you WANT the truth to be . almost always, the truth will be the opposite of what you WANT it to be. at least that has been my experience . we cant allow our own WANTS (lusts) to dictate what the truth is especially when it comes to scripture. if we do that , we are letting our lusts dictate what god's word says which can lead to a myriad of problems and we are in danger of being deceived by teachers who tell us what we want to hear instead of what we need to hear. 2timothy1-4

i hope you all use exegesis instead of eisegesis when you try to interpret the bible . as a general guide , exegesis is interpreting scripture by letting scripture say what it says and using scripture to interpret scripture . this doesnt allow your personal beliefs or presuppositions influence your interpretations. eisegesis is when you put your own bias and presuppositions into your interpretations. this is letting your WANTS/LUSTS influence your interpretations . which seems more likely the interpretive process that will lead you to the truth ?

ask yourself if you are asking the right questions . you may be asking the wrong questions which will inevitably lead you no where but more confusion on the matter and not get you to the truth.

after asking what you WANT the truth to be , ask what salvation means , when it happens , how we come to be saved , and what the sign or seal is of our salvation . those are starting questions . these questions alone will keep you busy for quite awhile. i speak from experience , lol.

then ask , are we literally saved when we come to the faith or only figuratively saved ? are we literally saved while on our walk with the lord or are we just figuratively saved ? are we literally saved on judgement day or are we figuratively saved ?

as we all should know there are no contradictions in the bible , otherwise god's word would be fallible . with that being said , how do you overcome the apparent contradiction when the word saved is used ? ie. has saved (past tense) 1timpthy1:9 titus3:5. we are saved (present tense) 2corinthians2:15 1corinthians1:1:18 we will/shall be saved (future tense) romans5:9-10 1corinthians3:15 . has been saved(meaning we have been saved already) we are saved (meaning we are presently saved) and we will/shall be saved(meaning we havent been saved yet) would all contradict each other. so when are we saved? if the word saved meant the same thing in all the above examples , there would be a contradiction .

for this apparent contradiction , if the word saved was always meant to be literal , then the contradiction stands . if its not always meant to be literal , but figurative in some instances when its used , we can answer the contradiction and clear it up.

another thing to consider is when the teaching of how we get "saved" to begin with started .(asking the lord into your heart and the sinners prayer etc). you will find it is only about 500 yrs old and has no examples whatsoever in scripture of anyone coming to the faith in that way . it doesnt explain the salvation of the thief on the cross at all . this does play a role in finding the truth on this subject.

also , ask when the once saved always saved theology started . it too is only about 500 yrs old .

those two facts alone should have you second guessing whether osas is biblical truth or not.

i havent gone too far into this subject here as im not sure i will be able to come back to this thread too often but i will try if need be .

i hope i havent confused you all more than you were already . i hope i have given you some things to think about and to ponder on the subject . i hope and pray that you all come to the knowledge of the truth on this and all biblical subjects . i will try to respond when i can . god bless !

Hi Skippy,
Such a funny avatar for such a serious person!

I know everything you're talking about. What you say above has been one of my main reasoning points forever.
CHURCH HISTORY. Calvin coming about in the 1,500's. Accepting Jesus - when did this all start?

As you said, none of this is from the original church. The O.C. DID speak of believing in Jesus (the Greek Believing) and FOLLOWING Jesus and living to please God. The O.C. was VERY WORKS oriented. We don't like to hear about this today. It's rather scary to think that we have TO DO something to be saved or to continue being saved or to be saved in the end - which is when it counts.

Your post was very good and very thoughtful and very true.

I'd like to add that I don't object to all these modern versions of explaining the truth as long as the truth is within the explanation. I do object to those that call "works" a dirty word and treat it as such. To this I respond. Jesus clearly said we had to live a different life as evidenced in Mathew 5, just as an example. Paul also made this clear. Just believing (English believing) is not enough...

Thanks for such a refreshing post.
Fran

 

[FranC]

actually is Jesus or satan. There is no middle ground.

The Way of Salvation is Narrow means Just that. Its either you say Thank you for Gods Blood or not.

Sincerity is not optional. God Himself compares it to a Marriage. But its God the Perfect Bridegroom wooing His imperfect Bride into submission Blessed Assurance Jesus is mine

Its like you wouldn't attempt to be One with God only to plan to use Him but instead to learn to Love Him Yes?

Hi Bravethea
Yes. You cannot mock God. So we must be sincere. And Love is everything in Christianity. We read about this in 1 Corinthians 12 and 13. The gifts of the spirit are nothing if we don't receive them in love and express them in love...

Blessings
Fran

 

[skippypb]

Lol i have set and re-read some of this stuff over and over and over to get understanding. It's been rough but obviously this subject is very controversial for a reason. But I am starting to get the answers I need.

sorry if it was hard to understand . i didnt want to go into too much detail while at the same time going into some detail to try to send you down a path that may lead you to a concrete conclusion . as im not sure how often i will be able to respond , i didnt want to start a big debate on things . especially since ive had bad experiences on sites like this before . im new to this site so i hope this site is different though . although ive seen some things that makes me worry that its not .

is there anything in particular you want some clarification on in regards to making what i said more understandable woth wording ? yes this is an extremely complicated topic . i spent over a yr on this study alone because it sent me down so many rabbit trails until i came to any concrete conclusions . however along the way the lord showed me so many concepts, ideas , and truths that im thankful i went down those rabbit trails . eventually those rabbit trails led me back to where i began . anyway , dont give up , you will eventually find the truth if you diligently look for it ! god bless

 

[skippypb]

Hi Skippy,
Such a funny avatar for such a serious person!

I know everything you're talking about. What you say above has been one of my main reasoning points forever.
CHURCH HISTORY. Calvin coming about in the 1,500's. Accepting Jesus - when did this all start?

As you said, none of this is from the original church. The O.C. DID speak of believing in Jesus (the Greek Believing) and FOLLOWING Jesus and living to please God. The O.C. was VERY WORKS oriented. We don't like to hear about this today. It's rather scary to think that we have TO DO something to be saved or to continue being saved or to be saved in the end - which is when it counts.

Your post was very good and very thoughtful and very true.

I'd like to add that I don't object to all these modern versions of explaining the truth as long as the truth is within the explanation. I do object to those that call "works" a dirty word and treat it as such. To this I respond. Jesus clearly said we had to live a different life as evidenced in Mathew 5, just as an example. Paul also made this clear. Just believing (English believing) is not enough...

Thanks for such a refreshing post.
Fran

sometimes the most serious people have a serious sense of humor as well .. seriously ! lol .. thank you for your kind words though . it gives me hope that this site might be different from others ive discussed things on . ive taken a few yrs off from coming into these forums and focused on discussions in person because of how some people treat others in these forums . of course i guess my avatar might make it hard to take me seriously though. lol

its nice to know to know there are others who study the histories and other things behind theologies because if the churches did that more , we wouldnt be going down hill like we seem to be going i dont think. either way its the lords will if we do.

i also agree that its ok if those old sources have truths in them but sometimes truth is mixed in with so much poison it almost doesnt make it worth it though . either way we need to be careful .

although my post was intended to get people to find out the scriptural process of original "salvation" (meaning when we first come to the faith) i agree that works is another topic that needs to be discussed . however , if people understand the beginning of their faith and what seals them and how , i feel that will give them a better idea of whether osas is true or not regardless of what the history of the teaching is and regardless of the works issue . confused yet ? lol

with that being said , yes works do play a role in it . neither the works of the law(romans3:27-28) nor works of faith save us , faith alone does . (there is a difference between works of the law and works of faith . works has different meanings otherwise again there would be contradictions ). however if you dont have works your faith is dead . james 2:14-26 . those works themselves dont save us , however , they show that we have faith . the faith we have in the grace the lord has given us through his sacrifice should make our works shine through by means of our obedience to the holy spirit . our faith should make us zealous for doing good and not evil . it isnt a legalistic or a you have to do this thing by any means though .

abraham was justified by faith(romans4:1-3) but his faith was justified by his following through with a deed(james2:21-22) . in this way his faith was made perfect as is ours. this concept actually plays a major role in our beginning salvation or how we come to the faith scripturally as well as our walk in the faith . this concept actually helps explain why the thief on the cross was saved without water baptism etc . thats a far deeper road to go on though lol.

i am really tired as im writing this so i hope i didnt confuse you or anyone else who might be reading this too much . as im writing it sounds good but oftentimes when i read it the next day it makes little sense to me .. lol . but i think you and i at least have some of the same ideas . thanks again for your kind words though , they were a warm welcome for me to this forum . i greatly appreciate it ! god bless !

p.s. i do understand what you mean by the difference between the english and the greek meaning for the word believing in case you were wondering . lol

 

[Roughsoul1991]

sometimes the most serious people have a serious sense of humor as well .. seriously ! lol .. thank you for your kind words though . it gives me hope that this site might be different from others ive discussed things on . ive taken a few yrs off from coming into these forums and focused on discussions in person because of how some people treat others in these forums . of course i guess my avatar might make it hard to take me seriously though. lol

its nice to know to know there are others who study the histories and other things behind theologies because if the churches did that more , we wouldnt be going down hill like we seem to be going i dont think. either way its the lords will if we do.

i also agree that its ok if those old sources have truths in them but sometimes truth is mixed in with so much poison it almost doesnt make it worth it though . either way we need to be careful .

although my post was intended to get people to find out the scriptural process of original "salvation" (meaning when we first come to the faith) i agree that works is another topic that needs to be discussed . however , if people understand the beginning of their faith and what seals them and how , i feel that will give them a better idea of whether osas is true or not regardless of what the history of the teaching is and regardless of the works issue . confused yet ? lol

with that being said , yes works do play a role in it . neither the works of the law(romans3:27-28) nor works of faith save us , faith alone does . (there is a difference between works of the law and works of faith . works has different meanings otherwise again there would be contradictions ). however if you dont have works your faith is dead . james 2:14-26 . those works themselves dont save us , however , they show that we have faith . the faith we have in the grace the lord has given us through his sacrifice should make our works shine through by means of our obedience to the holy spirit . our faith should make us zealous for doing good and not evil . it isnt a legalistic or a you have to do this thing by any means though .

abraham was justified by faith(romans4:1-3) but his faith was justified by his following through with a deed(james2:21-22) . in this way his faith was made perfect as is ours. this concept actually plays a major role in our beginning salvation or how we come to the faith scripturally as well as our walk in the faith . this concept actually helps explain why the thief on the cross was saved without water baptism etc . thats a far deeper road to go on though lol.

i am really tired as im writing this so i hope i didnt confuse you or anyone else who might be reading this too much . as im writing it sounds good but oftentimes when i read it the next day it makes little sense to me .. lol . but i think you and i at least have some of the same ideas . thanks again for your kind words though , they were a warm welcome for me to this forum . i greatly appreciate it ! god bless !

p.s. i do understand what you mean by the difference between the english and the greek meaning for the word believing in case you were wondering . lol

I been on this site for awhile I had a old account and forgot the password and made a new one but it's a nice website. Of course you will have debate on topics like salvation or Donald Trump. But overall it's great. Of course you will havea few knuckle heads who will defend their theology to the death but never do research on the other persons theology. I have definitely found good relief once I realized why things where not making since. I had in my heart the truth but had no idea how to put it into words until I was given this doctrine.Do United Methodists believe "once saved, always saved" or can we "lose our salvation"? | The United Methodist Church

 

[Roughsoul1991]

Hi Skippy,
Such a funny avatar for such a serious person!

I know everything you're talking about. What you say above has been one of my main reasoning points forever.
CHURCH HISTORY. Calvin coming about in the 1,500's. Accepting Jesus - when did this all start?

As you said, none of this is from the original church. The O.C. DID speak of believing in Jesus (the Greek Believing) and FOLLOWING Jesus and living to please God. The O.C. was VERY WORKS oriented. We don't like to hear about this today. It's rather scary to think that we have TO DO something to be saved or to continue being saved or to be saved in the end - which is when it counts.

Your post was very good and very thoughtful and very true.

I'd like to add that I don't object to all these modern versions of explaining the truth as long as the truth is within the explanation. I do object to those that call "works" a dirty word and treat it as such. To this I respond. Jesus clearly said we had to live a different life as evidenced in Mathew 5, just as an example. Paul also made this clear. Just believing (English believing) is not enough...

Thanks for such a refreshing post.
Fran

We have so many Scriptures just within in Matthew telling how to live and to beware living a certain way as a follower in Christ. In Hebrews 12:14Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)

Warning against Rejecting God’s Grace
14 Pursue peace with everyone, and holiness—without it no one will see the Lord.

We must pursue peace and holiness. God does not force us to love him. We must choose to everyday follow him and his word. Free will gives us this choice to obey or not to obey. I have been moved to apologise to people knowing it's what God would want but I have out of my own self made it worse by continuing the argument. I chose, I suffered the consequences and I asked forgiveness. Christians cannot lose salvation because salvation is a gift from God that only he can give or take away, but what we can do is fall away from living for God. If gone unchecked this only allows temptation get stronger. When your close to God he protects his sheep. God will also come for you when you fall away. But it's up to us all to say. God here I am. I am sorry, please forgive me and help shape me into the man/woman you want me to be.

We are held accountable to how we live after salvation. God will work in us if we allow him to. We can't half cheek the chair. Either God needs to be sitting all the way on the chair or nothing. We have to fully rely on him and follow him. With full faith we see the good works of God done through us to bring him Glory.

 

[Roughsoul1991]

sometimes the most serious people have a serious sense of humor as well .. seriously ! lol .. thank you for your kind words though . it gives me hope that this site might be different from others ive discussed things on . ive taken a few yrs off from coming into these forums and focused on discussions in person because of how some people treat others in these forums . of course i guess my avatar might make it hard to take me seriously though. lol

its nice to know to know there are others who study the histories and other things behind theologies because if the churches did that more , we wouldnt be going down hill like we seem to be going i dont think. either way its the lords will if we do.

i also agree that its ok if those old sources have truths in them but sometimes truth is mixed in with so much poison it almost doesnt make it worth it though . either way we need to be careful .

although my post was intended to get people to find out the scriptural process of original "salvation" (meaning when we first come to the faith) i agree that works is another topic that needs to be discussed . however , if people understand the beginning of their faith and what seals them and how , i feel that will give them a better idea of whether osas is true or not regardless of what the history of the teaching is and regardless of the works issue . confused yet ? lol

with that being said , yes works do play a role in it . neither the works of the law(romans3:27-28) nor works of faith save us , faith alone does . (there is a difference between works of the law and works of faith . works has different meanings otherwise again there would be contradictions ). however if you dont have works your faith is dead . james 2:14-26 . those works themselves dont save us , however , they show that we have faith . the faith we have in the grace the lord has given us through his sacrifice should make our works shine through by means of our obedience to the holy spirit . our faith should make us zealous for doing good and not evil . it isnt a legalistic or a you have to do this thing by any means though .

abraham was justified by faith(romans4:1-3) but his faith was justified by his following through with a deed(james2:21-22) . in this way his faith was made perfect as is ours. this concept actually plays a major role in our beginning salvation or how we come to the faith scripturally as well as our walk in the faith . this concept actually helps explain why the thief on the cross was saved without water baptism etc . thats a far deeper road to go on though lol.

i am really tired as im writing this so i hope i didnt confuse you or anyone else who might be reading this too much . as im writing it sounds good but oftentimes when i read it the next day it makes little sense to me .. lol . but i think you and i at least have some of the same ideas . thanks again for your kind words though , they were a warm welcome for me to this forum . i greatly appreciate it ! god bless !

p.s. i do understand what you mean by the difference between the english and the greek meaning for the word believing in case you were wondering . lol

Oh also welcome hope you find peace, comfort, truth, and love within this site everyday!

 

[skippypb]

I been on this site for awhile I had a old account and forgot the password and made a new one but it's a nice website. Of course you will have debate on topics like salvation or Donald Trump. But overall it's great. Of course you will havea few knuckle heads who will defend their theology to the death but never do research on the other persons theology. I have definitely found good relief once I realized why things where not making since. I had in my heart the truth but had no idea how to put it into words until I was given this doctrine.Do United Methodists believe "once saved, always saved" or can we "lose our salvation"? | The United Methodist Church

yes ive already seen a few posts on other threads that shows there are always a few who will attack a person regardless and i do expect that to some degree but some sites are really bad with it though .

sorry i think i must have misunderstood or assumed something from your previous reply . thanks for clarifying things though . i will definitely read through that page when i have a bit more time and im more awake .. lol

technically i dont believe we can lose our salvation though . i do not believe we are literally saved yet . so how can you lose something that you dont literally have ? i believe we are only figuratively saved at the moment and are on our path towards salvation . long reasoning process behind that though but here is a small part of that reasoning .

1Thessalonians 5:8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.

why have hope for something we already have or have attained or seen ?

Romans 8:24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?

Romans 8:25 But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.

why do we with patience wait for something we already have ?

Romans 13:11 And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed.

how can our salvation be nearer than when we believed if we are literally saved when we first believed?

maybe that page goes into it maybe not , i will see when i read it , but the gist is that we are only literally saved after we stand before the lord on judgment day and are given the promised inheritance and rewards etc .

2Corinthians 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
romans14:10-11



same idea with eternal life .. do we literally have eternal life already or is that a future thing as well ? i know i for one am not going to live forever in this body , but i will in the body i HOPE that i WILL BE given in the future .

however if you go by the commonly held understanding of what salvation means , then i would agree we can lose our salvation . my previous comments attack the way of thinking based on the belief that we are literally saved when we begin to believe and can never lose it . either way i agree the osas teaching is false . thanks again for the link though , i promise i will read through it . god bless !

 

[mailmandan]

We have so many Scriptures just within in Matthew telling how to live and to beware living a certain way as a follower in Christ. In Hebrews 12:14Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)

Warning against Rejecting God’s Grace
14 Pursue peace with everyone, and holiness—without it no one will see the Lord. We must pursue peace and holiness. God does not force us to love him. We must choose to everyday follow him and his word. Free will gives us this choice to obey or not to obey.

The NASB reads - "and the sanctification without which no one will see the Lord." To be sanctified is to be "set apart/made holy." Yet people who teach salvation by works seem to interpret this verse to mean that "in addition to being justified and sanctified," we must obtain a certain level of "personal holiness" that is attained through our performance if we expect to see God. That takes us into salvation by works.

I have also heard works-salvationists quote Hebrews 12:15 (from the KJV) which says "fail of the grace of God" and they teach this means a believer was in the grace of God, but later failed the grace of God and lost their salvation, yet as the NASB reads - "comes short of the grace of God." The NIV reads - "falls short of the grace of God" and the RSV reads - "fails to obtain the grace of God."

We are held accountable to how we live after salvation. God will work in us if we allow him to. We can't half cheek the chair. Either God needs to be sitting all the way on the chair or nothing. We have to fully rely on him and follow him. With full faith we see the good works of God done through us to bring him Glory.

Philippians 1:6 - Being confident of this very thing, that He which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ. ​Did Paul forget to mention, "if we let Him?"

 

[PeterJens]

yes ive already seen a few posts on other threads that shows there are always a few who will attack a person regardless and i do expect that to some degree but some sites are really bad with it though .

Hi Skippy,

You have to see beyond the labels and the attempts to provoke people and get them
annoyed.

Some see this as a battle of spiritual darkness and light rather than a differing emphasis
of faith. So you will get labelled and then scripture dealt with as if it is a battle of verses
rather than a sharing of insights into our walk with Christ.

Here there are like minded people, among others who can take questions and show deeper
depths. I have found much blessing in this.

 

[Ariel82]

Awesome a nice civil thread with lots of insights!

Welcome to CC, skippyb and Roughsoul (not sure if I ever told you that or not).

 

[eternally-gratefull]

i havent read too many of the responses on this thread so forgive me if anything i say was brought up before . ive studied this subject thoroughly years ago and came to a lot of conclusions about it that go against both what people are taught and believe about the subject in todays churches. i didnt like the conclusions i had to come to but scripture demands them. to be honest, ive forgotten alot about this subject since i studied it because of health issues but without getting too involved with this discussion , i will say a few things that you need to think about.

when studying any biblical subject , first and foremost , ask yourself what you WANT the truth to be . almost always, the truth will be the opposite of what you WANT it to be. at least that has been my experience . we cant allow our own WANTS (lusts) to dictate what the truth is especially when it comes to scripture. if we do that , we are letting our lusts dictate what god's word says which can lead to a myriad of problems and we are in danger of being deceived by teachers who tell us what we want to hear instead of what we need to hear. 2timothy1-4

i hope you all use exegesis instead of eisegesis when you try to interpret the bible . as a general guide , exegesis is interpreting scripture by letting scripture say what it says and using scripture to interpret scripture . this doesnt allow your personal beliefs or presuppositions influence your interpretations. eisegesis is when you put your own bias and presuppositions into your interpretations. this is letting your WANTS/LUSTS influence your interpretations . which seems more likely the interpretive process that will lead you to the truth ?

ask yourself if you are asking the right questions . you may be asking the wrong questions which will inevitably lead you no where but more confusion on the matter and not get you to the truth.

after asking what you WANT the truth to be , ask what salvation means , when it happens , how we come to be saved , and what the sign or seal is of our salvation . those are starting questions . these questions alone will keep you busy for quite awhile. i speak from experience , lol.

then ask , are we literally saved when we come to the faith or only figuratively saved ? are we literally saved while on our walk with the lord or are we just figuratively saved ? are we literally saved on judgement day or are we figuratively saved ?

as we all should know there are no contradictions in the bible , otherwise god's word would be fallible . with that being said , how do you overcome the apparent contradiction when the word saved is used ? ie. has saved (past tense) 1timpthy1:9 titus3:5. we are saved (present tense) 2corinthians2:15 1corinthians1:1:18 we will/shall be saved (future tense) romans5:9-10 1corinthians3:15 . has been saved(meaning we have been saved already) we are saved (meaning we are presently saved) and we will/shall be saved(meaning we havent been saved yet) would all contradict each other. so when are we saved? if the word saved meant the same thing in all the above examples , there would be a contradiction .

for this apparent contradiction , if the word saved was always meant to be literal , then the contradiction stands . if its not always meant to be literal , but figurative in some instances when its used , we can answer the contradiction and clear it up.

I would disagree. It does not contradict itself if I say I have been saved (past tense) Am Saved (present tense) and will be saved.

For that is eternal life.

I was saved at a point in time, I am saved right now, and I will be saved in the future when my Salvation is completed.

It is very dangerous when we go changing the meanings of words, or symbolizing them. That was the main issue with the roman church which was the church by force for centuries, They could not get the word to fit their belief system, so they figuratively changed the meanings of words to fit their doctrines.

another thing to consider is when the teaching of how we get "saved" to begin with started .(asking the lord into your heart and the sinners prayer etc). you will find it is only about 500 yrs old and has no examples whatsoever in scripture of anyone coming to the faith in that way

cough cough..

Rom 10: [SUP]9 [/SUP]that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. [SUP]10 [/SUP]For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. [SUP]11 [/SUP]For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.” [SUP]12 [/SUP]For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him. [SUP]13 [/SUP]For “whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.”

Now granted, it takes more than just saying a prayer True repentance and true humility and true FAITH must be present. or they are just words. and some churches take it to far. But you still must call out to God and ask him into your kardia (in scripture the kardia, or heart is our soul)

it doesnt explain the salvation of the thief on the cross at all .

Actually it does. Lord remember me when you come into your kingdom. He did just that, He prayed, and ask God to remember him.

this does play a role in finding the truth on this subject.

also , ask when the once saved always saved theology started . it too is only about 500 yrs old .

eternal security is found in scripture. It comes from as you say, using scripture to interpret scripture.

The roman church held sway militarily for centuries, anyone who preached eternal life or security would have been murdered as heretics.. so to say some doctrine was not tought by any church until after the reformation, is not a good or usefull tool Much of the reformation kept many of Romes doctrines..

those two facts alone should have you second guessing whether osas is biblical truth or not.

Nah, We should question a teaching because we should test all spirit to see if they be from God, But to use this as reasoning.. we need more than that. We should always use scripture. with open minds.

i havent gone too far into this subject here as im not sure i will be able to come back to this thread too often but i will try if need be .

i hope i havent confused you all more than you were already . i hope i have given you some things to think about and to ponder on the subject . i hope and pray that you all come to the knowledge of the truth on this and all biblical subjects . i will try to respond when i can . god bless !

welcome to CC. hope you find your stay peacefull And thank you for sharring. please do not take my disagreeing as an attack, Just sharing what I see.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Hi Skippy,
Such a funny avatar for such a serious person!

I know everything you're talking about. What you say above has been one of my main reasoning points forever.
CHURCH HISTORY. Calvin coming about in the 1,500's. Accepting Jesus - when did this all start?

As you said, none of this is from the original church. The O.C. DID speak of believing in Jesus (the Greek Believing) and FOLLOWING Jesus and living to please God. The O.C. was VERY WORKS oriented. We don't like to hear about this today. It's rather scary to think that we have TO DO something to be saved or to continue being saved or to be saved in the end - which is when it counts.

Your post was very good and very thoughtful and very true.

I'd like to add that I don't object to all these modern versions of explaining the truth as long as the truth is within the explanation. I do object to those that call "works" a dirty word and treat it as such. To this I respond. Jesus clearly said we had to live a different life as evidenced in Mathew 5, just as an example. Paul also made this clear. Just believing (English believing) is not enough...

Thanks for such a refreshing post.
Fran

Forgive me, but unless you think the roman church founded in the 3rd century is the origional church, I must strongly disagree.

OSAS as a term may not have been used until some point, but eternal life, eteranl security, eternal seal if the Holy Spirit. The fact that I child of God according to Jesus would never die, never hunger or thirst, live forever, and has eternal life (john 6) the fact all children of God has been given EVERY spiritual blessing under heaven (eph 1) and the fact of the knowledge that we have eternal life is the basis for which we fight spiritual warefare in the spirit (1 john) is a biblical early church foundation.

 

[phil36]

It's certainly an interesting topic.. some say 'aye' and some say 'nay'.

Both views can lead to problems.. OSAS can lead people into thinking that once they are saved they can lead an unholy life.. living like the world. The view on the other side can lead to a works righteous mentality (I'm not saying all go into these errors but it does happen).

Personally I hold to this:

Those, whom God has accepted in His Beloved, effectually called, and sanctified by His Spirit, can neither totally, nor finally, fall away from the state of grace: but shall certainly persevere therein to the end, and be eternally saved.(a)

(a) Phil. 1:6; II Pet.1:10; John 10:28, 29; I John 3:9; I Pet. 1:5, 9.

WCF.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

This has been a very good thread to read. I met rough the other day, but it is nice to meet you too Skippy!

I am a bit like you when you say, in using OSAS in that respect then I would say I don't believe in OSAS.

The problem I have with the doctrine is that they inadvertently take away the requirement of faith for salvation. Because they say that subsequent unbelief has no effect on salvation. So the only faith needed is to believe in Him for eternal life. Not believing all the other things is allowed because they say that if we are unfaithful He still remains faithful means to them that we need only believe we will live eternally. If we are disbelieving in any other thing He has said, we just lose rewards on earth.

So to them, eternal life is the goal and that is the full race -to only keep believing they will live forever. Subsequent unbelief in any other thing He has said has no effect. This is a problem for me that I can't iron out.

This is why I end up saying I am "sort of" OSAS. Because I believe that subsequent unbelief can effect salvation. So to them, it seems to me that for them, to examine if they really are in the faith is to say: I still believe I will live forever, so I am still in the faith. If I don't believe all the other stuff He said, that's okay- I still kept my faith till the end.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

This has been a very good thread to read. I met rough the other day, but it is nice to meet you too Skippy!

I am a bit like you when you say, in using OSAS in that respect then I would say I don't believe in OSAS.

The problem I have with the doctrine is that they inadvertently take away the requirement of faith for salvation.

WHAT??

where do people come up with these ideas??

Because they say that subsequent unbelief has no effect on salvation.

They do?? Where do they say that?

Who is going to stop believing in God once he has saved you? Do people ever listen to what others say?

So the only faith needed is to believe in Him for eternal life.

Again who said this? You are really worrying me, You have been hanging around certain people to much.

Not believing all the other things is allowed because they say that if we are unfaithful He still remains faithful means to them that we need only believe we will live eternally. If we are disbelieving in any other thing He has said, we just lose rewards on earth.

Actually scripture said that if we are faithless he is faithful, people did not just make it up. And we just lose reward on earth? Again, where do you hear this stuff?

So to them, eternal life is the goal and that is the full race -to only keep believing they will live forever. Subsequent unbelief in any other thing He has said has no effect. This is a problem for me that I can't iron out.

I have a hard time iron that out to. because I have never heard someone say or speak of anything like this.

This is why I end up saying I am "sort of" OSAS. Because I believe that subsequent unbelief can effect salvation.

It can, Who ever does not believe IS CONDEMNED ALREADY, because they have not believed.

Just because someone claims they had faith for a time, does not mean they ever had, John said clearly, they went out from us, but they were never truly of us, thats why they left in unbelief, because they were never of us.

So to them, it seems to me that for them, to examine if they really are in the faith is to say: I still believe I will live forever,

what??

Jesus said if we partake of his food. and trust in him we will life forever (john 6 with John 3) John said knowing yuo have eternal ife (will live forever) is the basis of our faith.

. If you doubt you will live forever. I must wonder what your faith is in..

so I am still in the faith. If I don't believe all the other stuff He said, that's okay- I still kept my faith till the end.

easy believism is not a gospel. No one just believes in eternal life and nothing else. There is that thing called repentance.. That consists of ALOT more than just eternal life.

 

[phil36]

I must admit I have to agree with EG.

I am not sure where you got your information stunnedbygrace, but what i think you fail to see is that, just because someone acts like what you have said and claims eternal security, does not negate the truthfulness of eternal security for the believer.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

You cannot see the fractures there EG. I can't cause you to see them. I just have to talk with the men who CAN see them.
I can sometimes talk with men who don't see them, but you are not one of those men, because you get angry too much and I think that anger prevents you from seeing the fractures that other men see. And those men are sometimes desiring bitter fighting, but sometimes they are truly just admitting the fractures they see.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

You cannot see the fractures there EG. I can't cause you to see them. I just have to talk with the men who CAN see them.

What fractures?

People say people say and believe things that they do not believe. And then when they are questioned. This is the type of response they get, Its you,,

Why is this?

I can sometimes talk with men who don't see them, but you are not one of those men, because you get angry too much and I think that anger prevents you from seeing the fractures that other men see. And those men are sometimes desiring bitter fighting, but sometimes they are truly just admitting the fractures they see.

lol..

I am angry that my brothers and sisters are being slandered. (lets be honest, You would be angry also)

Over and over again people say we believe things we do not say, We say things we do not believe, and any time anyone confronts people who are doing this, Asks them to show someone who says these things, or explain what you mean,

No one ever admits they might be wrong, They might have it wrong.. They blame shift. Jut like you are doing right now. Instead of telling me or showing me people sho say those things, You blame me, Its my fault, You have no fault in the discussion, You can slander all you want, How dare anyone question you (this is how you and a few others come off)

I asked who said those things, Why is it everytime someone asks you people these things you never seem to answer who says those things?

do you have proof of the things you said. are are you going to be like a certain person you always defend, and refuse to answer, and just blame shift..

don;t you understand if it so hard to find someone who actually says they things you claim they say, then maybe you may be wrong? And the people who see you unable to name them, see this also?

 

[Grace777x70]

True biblical belief is of the heart - not in the head or mind. God looks on the heart - man look on the outward appearance.

Getting "saved" is simple.

Romans 10:9-10 (NASB)
[SUP]9 [/SUP] that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;

[SUP]10 [/SUP] for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

The process is simple too.

1) we hear the message of Christ - the gospel of our salvation in Him

2) we believe the message from our hearts

3) we were sealed with the Holy Spirit ( Jesus said in John 14:16 that the Holy Spirit will be with us and in us forever - now was Jesus lying or is he like a "bait and switch" car salesman that has "fine print" which He doesn't talk about )

Ephesians 1:13 (NASB)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, = 1) the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, = 2) you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, = 3)

you were sealed = aorist indicative tense / passive voice = a one time event in the past.

Passive voice = the sealing was not done by us but by an outside force - the Holy Spirit Himself.