Are you preterist or merely 'modified post-trib'?

[PlainWord]

But some people live with a seemingly insatiable need to be punished. And for them, the idea of a Great Tribulation is truly compelling, appealing and inviting.

Agreed. Sadly they have become so brainwashed by this idea of a rapture just prior to unbelievable chaos and killing on the earth. Because of this, they failed to understand (as I did for the longest time) that the Great Tribulation applied only to Israel and happened back in 66-70 AD. The Word makes clear that the conditions on earth just prior to the return of Christ is like it was in the "Days of Noah and/or Lot."

The so-called "rapture" is not listed as a sign to the GT. The wicked will have no idea that they are about to be taken until it happens. This is crystal clear. We "sons of the light" will have an idea because we will understand the evil conditions around us. Think back just 12 years to 2005. As immoral as things were then, could you imagine what 12 years would bring? Look at us now. Now imagine 12 years from now. What will the moral condition of the earth be in 2029, assuming we have that long?

 

[iamsoandso]

when do you believe the millennial kingdom began?

 

[MattTooFor]

View attachment 165314

If anyone can show any Scriptures which proves anything here to be incorrect, i welcome the attempt.
Please keep personal views, interpretations, and the such out of it. Just show me Scriptures which proves this diagram to be incorrect. Thanks

^i^

††† In His Holy and Precious Name, Jesus Christ †††

DiscipleDave

Well, for one thing...where does Jesus' statement "no one knows the day or the hour" fit into this chart? Everything I'm seeing on this chart would indicate people WOULD know the very day. It would be on exactly the 1260th day...according to your chart. And THAT would be counter-biblical.

 

[PlainWord]

when do you believe the millennial kingdom began?

Let me leave you with some passages to see if you can answer your own question:

Now when He was asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, He answered them and said, “The kingdom of God does not come with observation; nor will they say, ‘See here!’ or ‘See there!’ For indeed, the kingdom of God is within you.”

that you would walk worthy of God who calls you into His own kingdom and glory.

which is manifest evidence of the righteous judgment of God, that you may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you also suffer;

For this you know, that no fornicator, unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God.

Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption.

for the kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit.

Jesus answered and said to him, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”

 

[PlainWord]

The "Millennial Kingdom" began in Acts 2.

 

[iamsoandso]

Let me leave you with some passages to see if you can answer your own question:

Now when He was asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, He answered them and said, “The kingdom of God does not come with observation; nor will they say, ‘See here!’ or ‘See there!’ For indeed, the kingdom of God is within you.”

that you would walk worthy of God who calls you into His own kingdom and glory.

which is manifest evidence of the righteous judgment of God, that you may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you also suffer;

For this you know, that no fornicator, unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God.

Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption.

for the kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit.

Jesus answered and said to him, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”

lol, no I didn’t mean it as offensive, I became curious because of the things you all were talking about. It made me wonder about how some saw the Millennial kingdom because of the things being said.

In post #158 you conclude that 24:21 is fulfilled but another tribulation will also come later. Then in Post you referred to the "wicked" and the "sons of light" and so it made me wonder when you saw it as beginning. Why it made me curious was Rev.19:20 and Rev.20:2 and so if the beast,false prophet and the devil all three are removed from influencing the earth during the mill. then the wicked are actually just as if they had not come to the knowledge of something. If the beast and false prophet part is already fulfilled and his mark then they, the ones you referred to as wicked cannot in the future be deceived by the false prophet nor receive the mark of the beast. If the devil is bound and will not be loosed until the mill. is over then again they cannot be deceived so again they are just not yet of the knowledge that it has already happened.

You said you were almost finished reading wars from Josephus which is good to do so,lol I can remember the times I proclaimed that something was final and conclusive and after much thought was again unsure. After Josephus I found it just as important to also read the writings of Irenaeus,Ignatius,Polycarp ect. (at least the letters up to about ad250) because I found it made me have different conclusions from the ones I held prior.

I do note that their has been an ongoing debate between those who adhere to a futurist view and those who adhere to a preterite view and I have found it quite interesting to follow along with their debates. In the years past I suppose is where the debate began somewhere around the third or forth generation of the church. I find it almost comical that the futurist deny Josephus as history but they do I think in spite not understanding that it is actually their most potent weapon. Both seem to do this not spotting that the exact places where their debates end up are the same and so they get to a place in the debate where it is in a gridlock and neither can provide adequate proof to slay the other. One would think that either would notice that the same foggy grey areas in their theology where the good story begins to slip away are at the exact same spots and compare them. Other than that it just made me curious how you and the others viewed the mill. at this point in your discussion I wondered why those of opposing theology had not spotted the error of it in the thread so far and I suppose I will wait and see if they spot it at all,lol.

Eventually in this struggle to prove one incorrect and the other correct some become determined to take a different path instead of participating in the debate. Several years ago I ask if someone would help me with this math problem and I found a few. That has been the most accelerated advancement in my learning experience emailing back and forth between those who I found then and others I was introduced to afterwards. But do Finnish reading Josephus and advance to the others the thing about it is there seems to always be the new,new thing to come to realize everywhere you look there is someone else that has the problem all solved,well until someone sits and thinks it through and compares it to scripture then many slip away.

 

[iamsoandso]

The "Millennial Kingdom" began in Acts 2.

Conclusions like that are what I referred to,If we sit back and think it through and compare it to the scriptures and ask ourselves,if Paul mentions the beast after Acts2 as still in the world...or if in scripture the devil is still deceiving people....or the false prophets are spoken of as still in the world after Acts 2 ,,then are they still in the world after Acts2 and if they aren’t suppose to be there during the mill. then it's an easy thing to agree with the apostles saying they existed after Acts2 rather than man.

 

[PlainWord]

In post #158 you conclude that 24:21 is fulfilled but another tribulation will also come later. Then in Post you referred to the "wicked" and the "sons of light" and so it made me wonder when you saw it as beginning. Why it made me curious was Rev.19:20 and Rev.20:2 and so if the beast,false prophet and the devil all three are removed from influencing the earth during the mill. then the wicked are actually just as if they had not come to the knowledge of something. If the beast and false prophet part is already fulfilled and his mark then they, the ones you referred to as wicked cannot in the future be deceived by the false prophet nor receive the mark of the beast. If the devil is bound and will not be loosed until the mill. is over then again they cannot be deceived so again they are just not yet of the knowledge that it has already happened.

Lots of different concepts. The so called "Millennium" as those who think of it in Rev 20, is both in heaven and earth. The Kingdom of God came at Pentecost. Since then it comes to each of us at salvation. This is when we put to death the old man and are born again (first resurrection). If you are saved, you will never experience the second death (spiritual death). The rest of the dead (those not saved) do not live again until the "1000 years" are over. All Christians never stop living. Once saved our spirit, our soul, are changed and we never "die" even though our bodies will. This is the message of Rev 20:4-6.

Christ rules the nations with a rod of iron. We have seen this from at least the Crusades. It's a spiritual reigning with earthly implications. As for Satan, please pay close attention to what is actually said in the Word and not what is assumed by man. Satan is kept from deceiving the nations. This does not mean there will be no Satanic influence or evil. Christianity is allowed to spread without Satan's deception. That's my theory anyway. Deception about what? About who is really God, IMO.

You said you were almost finished reading wars from Josephus which is good to do so,lol I can remember the times I proclaimed that something was final and conclusive and after much thought was again unsure. After Josephus I found it just as important to also read the writings of Irenaeus,Ignatius,Polycarp ect. (at least the letters up to about ad250) because I found it made me have different conclusions from the ones I held prior.

Thanks for that. They are all on my list to read next. Granted you are much older and perhaps wiser than me. My thinking has evolved much in the past 5 years or so.

Eventually in this struggle to prove one incorrect and the other correct some become determined to take a different path instead of participating in the debate. Several years ago I ask if someone would help me with this math problem and I found a few. That has been the most accelerated advancement in my learning experience emailing back and forth between those who I found then and others I was introduced to afterwards. But do Finnish reading Josephus and advance to the others the thing about it is there seems to always be the new,new thing to come to realize everywhere you look there is someone else that has the problem all solved,well until someone sits and thinks it through and compares it to scripture then many slip away.

There are still some unanswered questions, plenty actually that I have concerning eschatology. However, the Great Tribulation of Mat 24:21 has been put to bed in my mind. The transition from current events of that evil generation in Jesus' day to His glorious Second Coming occurs after verse 26 and before verse 27. Jesus is saying that unlike the false prophets in their day, when He comes it will be as fast as lightening.

There were indeed many false prophets in the days of the Roman siege of Jerusalem. There was also a lunar eclipse and a comet just prior to the Roman's breaking through and destroying the temple. (this happens again tomorrow and Friday incidentally). Some viewed it as a positive omen other saw it as their doom.

I confess that my mind has been changed so much since I sought out the truth in all these matters and no doubt will again in areas where I am still foggy. I look forward to our continual dialogue.

 

[PlainWord]

Conclusions like that are what I referred to,If we sit back and think it through and compare it to the scriptures and ask ourselves,if Paul mentions the beast after Acts2 as still in the world...or if in scripture the devil is still deceiving people....or the false prophets are spoken of as still in the world after Acts 2 ,,then are they still in the world after Acts2 and if they aren’t suppose to be there during the mill. then it's an easy thing to agree with the apostles saying they existed after Acts2 rather than man.

Awe the beast. This is a topic I have studied at length. Since you have read Josephus and studied other works, have you concluded as I have that this "Beast" the antipathy of Christianity is basically the alter ego of us? This beast having 7 heads and 10 horns has been around for many centuries. Taking the "mark" simply means you belong to and serve this false, evil, Satanic-inspired empire. Today ISLAM fits the description to a tee. In the days of Christ it was Rome. Before that the Greeks and their worship of Diana.

 

[Timeline]

I am glad to see that people are commenting on their beliefs while refraining, for the most part, from being overly aggressive towards those that disagree.

I have found it to be the case that those "that have an answer to every question" should be listened to with extreme skepticism.

I know many of the scriptures that present problems to my eschatology. I don't dismiss them. But, I also know many of the scriptures that present problems for...others.

I often find myself wondering why I am so concerned about interpretation of prophecy - Does it really matter? I find that the greatest message of the Bible is Love - that is, God-like Love (1 Corinthians 13). However, the Bible is full of prophecy. So, I always come back to the conclusion that it is important and worth the time spent.

Being human, I assume that I wrong about some of my interpretations, "understandings", assumptions, etc.

How do we move forward, together, towards a more accurate understanding of Scripture and the prophecies therein.

 

[GaryA]

This may be a very short-lived thread.

HAHAHA - are you kidding? Oh - you are 'new'; anyone who has been on here for a long enough period of time knows that no thread that even touches 'rapture' or 'pre-/mid-/post-/*-trib' will die without living through the millennium first... You know - 100 years is just a child... Just call 'em "millennium threads"... They [ usually ] always manage to live out a long exhaustive life before they "pass away"... HAHAHA

I have not read any of this one yet --- but it should be interesting!

 

[GaryA]

This was a duplicate.

If you still have time to edit a post --- you can delete it.

Anyone who is not aware of this --- you are now...

( When I see this happen, I wonder why people don't simply delete the post. )

 

[PlainWord]

Let's cut to the chase. Bottom line is this. The GT of Mat 24:21 is over. When Jesus returns it will be like a thief in the night. This means people will not see it coming. This means none of these horrible things in Revelation are literal otherwise it can not be said that Christ returns suddenly "like a thief" and catches sinners off guard.

Keep in mind that 6 times it is said that Christ is to remain at the right hand of the Father until He makes the earth Christ's footstool. This means "God sits off the coast of Normandy and shells the beach head until the Germans have been beaten into submission BEFORE Christ comes ashore in His landing craft." (Sorry to any of my German friends for the analogy).

So the "tribulation of those days" that Christ references in Mat 24:29 does NOT refer back to verse 21, rather it refers back just one verse to verse 28:

[SUP]28 [/SUP]For wherever the carcass is, there the eagles will be gathered together.

This is the "tribulation of those days" that Christ returns immediately after. This is the verse that tells us what God does to make earth Christ's footstool.

 

[Grace777x70]

This guy here has done some good study on the finished work of Christ and the end times. He has a whole series on it which I found interesting.

[video]http://www.paulwhiteministries.com/single-post/2015/07/30/Finished-Work-Eschatology-1-Days-of-Vengeance[/video]

 

[PlainWord]

When Christ returns (once and only once) He sends out His angels to harvest the earth. The wicked are taken to the Body (Mat 24:28) and the righteous are left behind to be gathered per Mat 13. There is no need for any pre-trib rapture because the Great Tribulation happened in AD 66-70 and the future tribulation deals with those taken to the "body" where 1/3 of mankind will be slayed. These are the beast followers.

 

[PlainWord]

This guy here has done some good study on the finished work of Christ and the end times. He has a whole series on it which I found interesting.

[video]http://www.paulwhiteministries.com/single-post/2015/07/30/Finished-Work-Eschatology-1-Days-of-Vengeance[/video]

Thanks for sharing. I watched his first video and agreed 100% with it.

 

[Grace777x70]

Thanks for sharing. I watched his first video and agreed 100% with it.

I have listened to them all. They are good and my spirit bears witness with it. I was saved reading the prophecy book. The Late Great Planet Earth by Hal Lindsay. Don't remember a thing about it other something to do with Gog and Magog but I followed the prayer at the end of the book from my heart kneeling by myself by my bed one night.

Here is a good one too about Daniel's 70th week. It's an audio. Let me know what you think of that if you feel to listen to it.

[url]http://www.seeinggrace.com/archive_2010.html[/URL]

James Barron

A New Look at the 70 Weeks of Daniel

Sunday, December 12, 2010 9:30am
Duration: 48:26 (34.9MB) mp3

 

[tanakh]

Agreed. Sadly they have become so brainwashed by this idea of a rapture just prior to unbelievable chaos and killing on the earth. Because of this, they failed to understand (as I did for the longest time) that the Great Tribulation applied only to Israel and happened back in 66-70 AD. The Word makes clear that the conditions on earth just prior to the return of Christ is like it was in the "Days of Noah and/or Lot."

The so-called "rapture" is not listed as a sign to the GT. The wicked will have no idea that they are about to be taken until it happens. This is crystal clear. We "sons of the light" will have an idea because we will understand the evil conditions around us. Think back just 12 years to 2005. As immoral as things were then, could you imagine what 12 years would bring? Look at us now. Now imagine 12 years from now. What will the moral condition of the earth be in 2029, assuming we have that long?

Some people in every Generation thinks the whole thing is going to happen at any minute You talk about twelve years ago
During the Sixties people thought WW3 was about to start and the younger generation then were morally bankrupt. Beatles
records were publicly burned and the Fab Four cried all the way to the bank.

 

[tanakh]

Let's cut to the chase. Bottom line is this. The GT of Mat 24:21 is over. When Jesus returns it will be like a thief in the night. This means people will not see it coming. This means none of these horrible things in Revelation are literal otherwise it can not be said that Christ returns suddenly "like a thief" and catches sinners off guard.

Keep in mind that 6 times it is said that Christ is to remain at the right hand of the Father until He makes the earth Christ's footstool. This means "God sits off the coast of Normandy and shells the beach head until the Germans have been beaten into submission BEFORE Christ comes ashore in His landing craft." (Sorry to any of my German friends for the analogy).

So the "tribulation of those days" that Christ references in Mat 24:29 does NOT refer back to verse 21, rather it refers back just one verse to verse 28:

[SUP]28 [/SUP]For wherever the carcass is, there the eagles will be gathered together.

This is the "tribulation of those days" that Christ returns immediately after. This is the verse that tells us what God does to make earth Christ's footstool.

Thats a good analogy. In Acts the Disciples were told that Jesus would return in the same way he went. In Zechariah it says he would set his feet on the mount of Olives. In Revelation it says the Birds will feed on the bodies of the dead.

If a sudden Rapture was planned I would expect there to be a clear and concise explanation given in the Gospels leaving no doubt in anyone's minds and not leaving it until the nineteenth century before a comparative minority of Christians were told about it.

 

[PlainWord]

I have listened to them all. They are good and my spirit bears witness with it. I was saved reading the prophecy book. The Late Great Planet Earth by Hal Lindsay. Don't remember a thing about it other something to do with Gog and Magog but I followed the prayer at the end of the book from my heart kneeling by myself by my bed one night.

Here is a good one too about Daniel's 70th week. It's an audio. Let me know what you think of that if you feel to listen to it.

Seeing Grace: Audio Archive

James Barron

A New Look at the 70 Weeks of Daniel

Sunday, December 12, 2010 9:30am
Duration: 48:26 (34.9MB) mp3

I gave it a listen. It was good. He definitely is on the right track. Very little to argue with. However, I have additional insight and a slightly different take on part of Dan 9. I agree, however, that the entire 70 weeks were fulfilled with the stoning of Stephen. I disagree with comments about a future antiChrist (Man of Sin - yes) but let's not get side tracked.

If you look at Mat 18:21-22 you see that Jesus taught we are to forgive our brethren 70 x 7 for their sins, IF they repent. But what if they don't repent?? JUDGMENT!!

Therefore in Dan 9 when you see this:

Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city...

The word, "determined" is better translated "decreed." God is giving Israel 490 years to accomplish these things: to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, etc...

Israel did not do these things - CHRIST HAD TO DO THEM. Therefore, Israel was to face Judgment.