Eternal Security You CANNOT lose your salvation! by David J. Stewart | January 2004

[AllenW]

There is a real bitterness in their hearts towards biblical expression of faith and they
wish to bring down anyone who expresses it.

I have met this problem with other sects in the past, and once they have labelled all
the points you could make as wrong, there is little communication just jibs.

I am sure I am totally evil, lost, possessed, the anti-christ etc in their eyes, because
I know who I am in Christ and why I walk as I do. Most in their experience fold under
their pressure, because it is so relentless but driven by emotional hurt and frustration.

I do admire their perseverance, and I do understand why they are convicted as they
are. If I was in their position I would react in the same way.

I have learnt so much in the Lord through this experience and from them, I just praise
God for His Spirit, His love and His blessing. Even here enemies linger, where you would
expect only friends. But some are just miss-guided while others false teachers. But
all are blessed by God and His grace, so Amen, this builds up His body to perfection through
suffering. Halleluyah.

Peter, hi,
I thought now would be a good time to ask a few questions for you to clarify so that I and maybe others can learn.
When you use the word talisman, what do you mean?
It has many uses.
Also, you say you met with problems with other sects.
What other sects might these be?
I'd like to know so I can avoid them also.
And you say you know people have real bitterness in their hearts.
How do you know this?
How often do you know this?
I would like to know this too.

 

[FranC]

Those that have received Christ have chosen the "door" which is Christ alone by grace through faith. We have died on the cross with Christ and we rose to newness of life in our new creation.

We do not die to ourselves because we have already died with Christ on the cross. That's foolishness - we live to God now because we have already died.

Religion always gets things backwards and trying to achieve what Christ has already done.

We just need to have our minds renewed to the truths of the new creation - the new heart that we have in Christ now.

Galatians 2:20 (NASB)
[SUP]20 [/SUP] "I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me.

Romans 6:5-6 (NASB)
[SUP]5 [/SUP] For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection,

[SUP]6 [/SUP] knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin;

How many times is Jesus dying to Himself now?

If we don't know that we have died and therefor we create a religion of trying to die to ourselves then we will never experience the power of His resurrection life.

Romans 6:7-8 (NASB)
[SUP]7 [/SUP] for he who has died is freed from sin.

[SUP]8 [/SUP] Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him,

If we have died with Christ - then how are we to view our true selves in Christ now?

Romans 6:10-11 (NASB)
[SUP]10 [/SUP] For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God.

[SUP]11 [/SUP] Even so consider yourselves to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus.

Hi Grace,
We don't agree on eternal security, but I agree with everything you've said above.

It's all correct!

I think where we, and Others, differ is in the understanding that we must KEEP Jesus in our lives if we are to be saved.

There is that scripture that says that sinners will not go to heaven. It does not matter WHEN we return to a sinful life void of our Lord Jesus Christ-- IF we return to it, without Him, we will indeed be in danger.


1 Corinthians 6:9-11 - Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,

If the unsaved do as above and cannot get into heaven, what happens to one who abandons Jesus (however unlikely) and returns to a life of sin?

We are saved WITH Jesus. And yes, we DO sin every day.
We are NOT saved WIITHOUT Jesus Even if we NEVER sin!!

Faith saves us -- so,
Faith must be retained.

Fran

 

[FranC]

I like to think of it this way.

Lordship salvation focuses on God as lord. which is not bad. But they do not understand God as father (GRACE) Phariseeism would be an example. They held God up as lord with all their religion rules and regulations, and did it with honest faith that this is what God wanted.. Yet they rejected grace.

OK.. If THIS is Lordship Salvation, then I don't agree with it.
This is why I hate to watch videos and links. You really have to know a concept, 20 minutes won't cut it.

I am not a legalist, I am a believer in grace. I have no doubt that God is a Loving God and a Just God, but love must Always come first. If He didn't love us so much, He would not have sacrificed His son, and made a way of escape for us from before time.

We must have faith
We must follow Jesus' commandments

But rules and regulations just tie one down.
It's backwards Christianity.

I have friends that truly believe that if they miss ONE Mass, they're going straight to hell.
And yet, they say they believe in Jesus and trust in Him.

Thanks for explaining Lordship Salvation a little.
I dislike all these modern terms...

Fran

 

[FranC]

I don't understand what you mean but there is a whole thread about it where people talk about both aspects of it. It talks about the way some people "apply it".

It sounds good as a term but what some people actually mean by it - it is a different story then the real gospel.

http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/137878-lordship-salvation-false-teaching.html

I'm not watching it Grace!

I think I know all I'm going to know!!
Anyway, I like reading the bible to learn.
It's a nice and complete book that explains itself, much to
the chagrin of atheists. (circular reasoning)

Fran

 

[Grace777x70]

Hi Grace,
We don't agree on eternal security, but I agree with everything you've said above.

It's all correct!

I think where we, and Others, differ is in the understanding that we must KEEP Jesus in our lives if we are to be saved.

There is that scripture that says that sinners will not go to heaven. It does not matter WHEN we return to a sinful life void of our Lord Jesus Christ-- IF we return to it, without Him, we will indeed be in danger.


1 Corinthians 6:9-11 - Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,

If the unsaved do as above and cannot get into heaven, what happens to one who abandons Jesus (however unlikely) and returns to a life of sin?

We are saved WITH Jesus. And yes, we DO sin every day.
We are NOT saved WIITHOUT Jesus Even if we NEVER sin!!

Faith saves us -- so,
Faith must be retained.

Fran

I agree that the old man is dead and that the flesh is not the real us. For we have died and our life is hidden with Christ in God Col.3:3 - so we are not "dying to ourselves" - we are to actually live to our true selves because we are one with Christ in our spirit now.

We are not the flesh but we are responsible with what we do in these bodies that house the new man in Christ. The flesh still has the law of sin in it and it wants to do things to fulfill "it's" desires. Romans 7:23

It's important to locate the new man in Christ that is joined to the Lord as one spirit by the Holy Spirit who has sealed us when we believed of whom Jesus said would be in us and with us forever. John 14:16

There is a putting aside of the old habits and ways of the old man ( who is now dead as a door nail that died with Christ on the cross ) when we were in them but now we put on the new man in Christ. Eph. 4:22 says that "in reference to your former manner of living". Col. 3:9-10 is a sister scripture to this one too and sheds more light on it. This is not living by the flesh but by the new man by the spirit.

It is living by the spirit that "we put to death the deeds of the body". Romans 8:13

The scripture you quoted above in 1 Cor. 6:9-11 is a description of unrighteous people - it is an identity. Then Paul in verse 11 "describes" the believer in Christ ( and yes they still do sin but that is not their identity now )

1 Corinthians 6:11 (NASB)
[SUP]11 [/SUP] Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.


I encourage you to look at the above verse in the Greek verb tenses and you will see that these are one time events settled as being done in God's mind and heart because of Christ.

If we all sinned every day as you say - then none of us would be righteous and be with the Lord when we died. Of course our righteousness which is based on Christ only has nothing to do with our behavior. But as we grow in the grace and knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ and what He has already done for us - we grow up in Him and have more of His life reflecting in our behavior as He manifests His life in and through us.

Faith is of the heart and not of in the head. We can be sick in our minds because of situations in our lives which can distort our view of who God is, and bad teachings about who we are in Christ...etc. All these can warp out thought life and have our faith for living and experiencing some of the promises of God while on this earth.

Anyway - those are just my current views on the subject and this understanding has radically changed my Christian life and living by faith in all that Christ has already done for us.....

All of us are learning as we grow in the Lord and I just post my views and leave it in the hands of the Holy Spirit and hopefully we can all grow together.

 

[FranC]

Your eternal destiny depends on your understanding and personally believing the truth that Paul has been hammering on in Romans 4, that we are justified (declared righteous) by faith alone. We are not justified by works or by moral behavior, but rather by faith in the God who credits righteousness to the ungodly apart from works (Rom. 4:1-8). This blessing is not based on religious rituals (4:9-12) or on keeping the Law, which only serves to condemn us (4:13-15). Rather, as Paul now shows,

Saving faith is rooted in God’s grace, it rests on God’s promise, it revels in God’s glory, and it relies on God’s power.​

Paul is arguing that Abraham, whom the Jews rightly extolled as the father of their faith, was justified by faith alone, not by being circumcised or by keeping the Law. And as such, Abraham is not only the father of believing Jews, but also of Gentiles who believe. So Paul now expounds on the nature of Abraham’s faith as an example for us all.

some decent teaching HERE on what actual SAVING FAITH is


foundational truths are needed...not another video or what someone 'thinks' is a good idea

if y'all can't even get actual salvation agreed upon, honestly, I begin to think you are making things up

Hi Lauren,
I skimmed through your link. This was under no. 3:

Then, put your faith into action. As you act in faith and see God work, your faith is strengthened to trust Him the next time.

Putting your faith into action IS working in this life for God. I wrote about this in a previous post on here.
Faith is not dead. It is action. It means we have enough faith to do something.

Your link also mentioned Abraham. We like to remember Hebrews 11, The Faith Hall of Fame, in verse 8 Abraham is mentioned.

We seem to forget, though, that God asked Abraham to sacrifice his only son. He didn't say " I have faith and that is sufficient" - he took Isaac up to Mt. Moriah, ready to kill him.

We still, even today, have to do what God tells us to do.
It could be smiling at persons at work,
It could be letting someone pass ahead at the check-out counter
It could be taking care of a sick relative
It could be anything that we feel God would have us do.

I don't believe God wants us ONLY to have faith and do NOTHING.

Fran

 

[RomansToPhilemon]

Kevan,
I had asked you to please post scripture for eternal security.
The above is what you posted.
If I want to read stuff from Google, that's where I would go - but I don't even do that.

Could you please tell me, IN YOUR OWN WORDS, where in the bible Jesus said that if we believe in Him, we have ETERNAL SECURITY, forever even if the belief stops.

I'd appreciate it.

Fran

You are baptized with the Holy Spirit the moment you trust the gospel. Sealed unto the day of redemption. Sealed by the Holy Spirit.

In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

For God hath not called us unto uncleanness, but unto holiness. He therefore that despiseth, despiseth not man, but God, who hath also given unto us his holy Spirit.

Now he which stablisheth us with you in Christ, and hath anointed us, is God; Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnestof the Spirit in our hearts.

If God says you are sealed until the day of redemption, that seal's not breaking until the day of redemption. You are given the holy Spirit and have justification and sanctification imputed on you the moment you believe. That seal isn't breaking. He even warns believers to not grieve the holy Spirit. If you can grieve the Spirit, than you can sin when you are saved. It's the old man vs new man creature at enmity with each other. This is why it's important to know how to rightly divide the word of truth. Because you are going to go mix Israels prophecy and gospel with Paul's mystery and gospel. Major error in modern mainline Christianity.

All things are lawful unto me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any.

All things are lawful for a believer, not all things are good for a believer. You can live in sin, and still be saved.

If any man’s work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man’s work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

Why is he saved by fire? Because the down payment, the earnest of the Spirit, is IN HIM! The Holy Spirit will stand through that test of fire event though ALL of this mans works have been burnt up. All that's left is his salvation by the Spirit.

It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him: If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us: If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.

When you are saved, you are sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise. This is why Christ says in the above verse, that even if you quit "believing" Christ cannot deny himself. Because the Holy Spirit is IN YOU!

Now he which stablisheth us with you in Christ, and hath anointed us, is God; Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.

The earnest of the Spirit is like a down payment.

That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

You are sealed UNTIL THE REDEMPTION of that purchased possession. When is that? Death or Rapture...

And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

Eph 4.30
And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

 

[RomansToPhilemon]

RTP
I'm going to answer to your post 101 and 109 at another time. I was sick and am very far behind.
You're right that Peter preached to the Jew and Paul preached to the gentile, but do you believe that BOTH of their preaching is not for us?

Do you believe that the Jew is not part of the Body and therefore lives under separate rules? This would seem to be the case from the video I watched: The Biggest mistake the Church Ever Made.

I'll tell you right now what I think of it, however.

it reminds me of when John Calvin came onto the scene. He read the N.T. and came up with the TULIP beliefs. These have led to the modern day belief of not only Calvinism in its entirety, but also this eternal security we Always seem to be debating.

Christianity did NOT START with Pastor Richard Jordan. He's very good but he's way off on his theology. Could it be that HE is right, and every other theologian is wrong??

It reminds me of the JW. They go around preaching with their very own bible. Now, some of my bibles do have the word dispensation, instead of stewardship. What does dispensation mean anyway? you could go to any dictionary and you'll find that it means: Management OR Stewardship.

Paul was speaking as to the MANAGEMENT of the New Covenant. He wasn't speaking about new rules for a new Body.
God is the same Yesterday, today, and Tomorrow. HE DOES NOT CHANGE. Hebrews 13:8

Jesus coming did away with much of the OT Laws, He abolished the Civil Law and the Ceremonial Law, but He did not abolish the Moral Law. Everything Jesus said is for EVERYONE who wants to belong to the Kingdom of God.

Jesus came to be atonement for our sins, but also to set up the Kingdom of God here on earth. The Kingdom begins here.
Mathew 5 speaks to how we are to change internally.

There is nothing new under the sun. Nothing is to be ADDED to the bible. Revelation 22:18.

This is how Mormonism and Islam got started. One person, making up his own doctrine.

Fran

Dispensation means to dispense. God dispensing instructions to man. A new dispensation means new instructions. Nothing to do with stewardship. Websters Dictionary 1828 - Webster's Dictionary 1828 - dispensation

Richard Jordan didn't make this stuff up; that's completely false. Not only that, people throughout the millenniums knew about these things. They were often called the Paulicians and were persecuted by Catholics non-stop. They even write about them calling them heretics. There have always been believers who understood Paul and preached Christ according to the revelation of the mystery. Most of their writings and works were destroyed by the "church." Which is why we know little about them.

And besides all that. The bible has always said what is says. Whether or not people read it correctly is not God's fault (event though this is not the case; the point still would stand if it were true). If Paul was teaching these mystery truths in his day, yet All those in Asia turned away from him, how much more do you think that's going to happen in our day? I would argue that much more.

Also interesting tidbit of information. If you lay out the apostle Paul's journey over a map and then overlay were the KJB texts were found. You see an interesting thing happen. Not only do you see they were found were Paul went, but you also see the Paulicians whom also were killed by other "believers" at those same locations. Not a coincidence!

[video=youtube;DNBaEhcxhmE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DNBaEhcxhmE[/video]

 

[RomansToPhilemon]

Hi RTP
I can understand why you like Acts. Your man, Pastor Richard Jordan, made up a Whole doctrine from it. It's pretty interesting, actually. I'm Always amazed at how a person could come up with such fanciful ideas.

I only want to know if you're aware of the fact that Jesus appeared to Paul, fine, but then Paul disappeared into the desert (out of large "cities") for about 3 years and studied everything about Jesus.

This included speaking to Peter and the other Apostles that were available to him.

Paul came up with the doctrine in the bible. But I wouldn't put aside Peter and James, for instance. They LIVED WITH JESUS for over 3 years. Do you think they didn't know what Jesus believed? Why did He spend so much time teaching them? Maybe so they could pass on what they know?

In any case, if ANYONE is to be believed, it is our LORD.

Jesus is first.
The Apostles are second.
The Church is third.

And by Church, I mean a mainline Church. Not one that makes up it's own rules and regulations for Christendom. Jesus has already done that.

Fran

Well no. We didn't make up a doctrine from Acts. The text in the book called our bible says that the body of Christ started with Paul in Acts 9. Not Acts 2 were people want to put it. Especially since Hebrews 2.3-5 says it started with the Lord and confirmed unto that church and Peter in Acts 2. But those today don't like to talk about that...

Since all of that is true, why do they ignore Paul when he tells them he was given hidden, secret, mystery revelation that was never known about???? It slaughters to many of their sacred cows. Especially their self righteous works beliefs. Continue in sinless perfection and God will save you heresies. Right division slaughters many sacred cows that people are unwilling to give up. It's why they resist the truth.

And by the way Paul didn't need to learn about Jesus for 3 years lol. Paul's pedigree went unmatched in his day. He knew the Old Testaments scriptures very well. He had nothing he needed to learn from them. Certainly not the 3 years he was gone. He knew the moment he was saved that it was the Lord. What he was getting for those 3 years was the REVELATION OF THE MYSTERY from Christ!!!! And keep in mind that revelation was revealed throughout Paul's life. He didn't know everything from day one. Paul was being given revelations from Christ throughout his ministry.

 

[RomansToPhilemon]

Hey John 146,
You're right.

AS LONG AS YOU COMMIT yourself to HIM, you are saved, just like Paul said up above.

If you are NO LONGER COMMITED, are you still saved??

(what is being committed is the soul, of course)

Check out 2 Timothy 4:7-8
Paul has reached the end of his life, and tells Timothy he has fought the good fight. What fight? I thought we're just automatically saved? Paul says he h as kept the faith and will receive a crown of righteousness from the RIGHTEOUS JUDGE.

We like to forget that God is full of grace and love, but that He is also righteous and just.

Fran

The good fight is to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery. The body of Christ can't function in Heaven unless they have the doctrine that builds up their inner man.

And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ

God wants you to know what the fellowship of the mystery is. Do you know what it is? He says it's been hid since the beginning of the world. So you won't find it in prophecy. It's impossible

 

[Enow]

You are baptized with the Holy Spirit the moment you trust the gospel. Sealed unto the day of redemption. Sealed by the Holy Spirit.

In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

For God hath not called us unto uncleanness, but unto holiness. He therefore that despiseth, despiseth not man, but God, who hath also given unto us his holy Spirit.

Now he which stablisheth us with you in Christ, and hath anointed us, is God; Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnestof the Spirit in our hearts.

If God says you are sealed until the day of redemption, that seal's not breaking until the day of redemption. You are given the holy Spirit and have justification and sanctification imputed on you the moment you believe. That seal isn't breaking. He even warns believers to not grieve the holy Spirit. If you can grieve the Spirit, than you can sin when you are saved. It's the old man vs new man creature at enmity with each other. This is why it's important to know how to rightly divide the word of truth. Because you are going to go mix Israels prophecy and gospel with Paul's mystery and gospel. Major error in modern mainline Christianity.

All things are lawful unto me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any.

All things are lawful for a believer, not all things are good for a believer. You can live in sin, and still be saved.

If any man’s work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man’s work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

Why is he saved by fire? Because the down payment, the earnest of the Spirit, is IN HIM! The Holy Spirit will stand through that test of fire event though ALL of this mans works have been burnt up. All that's left is his salvation by the Spirit.

It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him: If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us: If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.

When you are saved, you are sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise. This is why Christ says in the above verse, that even if you quit "believing" Christ cannot deny himself. Because the Holy Spirit is IN YOU!

Now he which stablisheth us with you in Christ, and hath anointed us, is God; Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.

The earnest of the Spirit is like a down payment.

That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

You are sealed UNTIL THE REDEMPTION of that purchased possession. When is that? Death or Rapture...

And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

Eph 4.30
And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

I agree with you that He will never leave us nor forsake us, but there is a casting off when a believer does not look to Him as their Good Shepherd to help them discern by the KJV in order to depart from iniquity in running that race by faith in Jesus Christ.

Those saints left behind are denied by Him when by that work of iniquity is denying Him as 2 Timothy 2:12 says, but even if they do not believe any more, He still abides in them ( 2 Timothy 2:13 ) that are left behind as castaways for they will be received as vessels unto dishonor in His House because they still have His seal; that foundation remains after all the works that deny Him are burned up.

So while the door to the Marriage Supper is still open, may every one, including former believers trust Jesus Christ as their personal Good Shepherd to help them discern good & evil by the King James Version Bible so that He may expose the works of darkness by His words so they can lean on Him for help to depart from iniquity in the hopes of being received by Him as a vessel unto honor in His House at the pre tribulational rapture event.

 

[AllenW]

The good fight is to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery. The body of Christ can't function in Heaven unless they have the doctrine that builds up their inner man.

And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ

God wants you to know what the fellowship of the mystery is. Do you know what it is? He says it's been hid since the beginning of the world. So you won't find it in prophecy. It's impossible

Wow. you quoting Richard Jordan and Brian Ross puts you out on a limb, doesn't it?
I never met anyone who liked either one of them before.
Maybe you should tell us all a little about yourself as well.

 

[LaurenTM]

Hi Lauren,
I skimmed through your link. This was under no. 3:

Then, put your faith into action. As you act in faith and see God work, your faith is strengthened to trust Him the next time.

Putting your faith into action IS working in this life for God. I wrote about this in a previous post on here.
Faith is not dead. It is action. It means we have enough faith to do something.

Your link also mentioned Abraham. We like to remember Hebrews 11, The Faith Hall of Fame, in verse 8 Abraham is mentioned.

We seem to forget, though, that God asked Abraham to sacrifice his only son. He didn't say " I have faith and that is sufficient" - he took Isaac up to Mt. Moriah, ready to kill him.

We still, even today, have to do what God tells us to do.
It could be smiling at persons at work,
It could be letting someone pass ahead at the check-out counter
It could be taking care of a sick relative
It could be anything that we feel God would have us do.

I don't believe God wants us ONLY to have faith and do NOTHING.

Fran

hey~

sorry...I've been out most of the day and yesterday too...and posting in and out of threads here and not sure what is what to tell you the truth so I will just go with what you posted above (sorry...I usually stay a little more on track)

regarding faith...we will ACT according to what we believe...yes?

I'm not sure if you are agreeing or disagreeing?

we don't come to God with our acts of faith other than believing Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God

of course we act on that faith to cross the line from not saved to actually being saved

I am actually not agreeing with all the constant discussion on here about faith and grace etc

my question is how are you WALKING in what you say you believe

I have, at various times, posted about how my walk is according to my faith

however, it seems, when I ask that question...it's like a skunk walked into the room and I get no answer

I'm not in agreement with this apparent split between what Jesus said and what Paul said

I think it's hokum

 

[LaurenTM]

The good fight is to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery. The body of Christ can't function in Heaven unless they have the doctrine that builds up their inner man.

And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ

God wants you to know what the fellowship of the mystery is. Do you know what it is? He says it's been hid since the beginning of the world. So you won't find it in prophecy. It's impossible

this does not even make sense

and not because I don't understand what the mystery was...because we are told that the mystery has been revealed

the mystery here, is that you folks don't see that or acknowledge it

two things:

1. the mystery has been revealed

2. we shall be like Jesus for we will know as we are known...so what kind of function problem your teaching believes will occur in heaven, has nothing to do with reality or with what scripture states

you folks are sounding more and more like a cult

15The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.

16For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him.

17He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.

18And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy.

19For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, 20and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.

21Once you were alienated from God and were enemies in your minds because of[SUP]g[/SUP] your evil behavior.

22But now he has reconciled you by Christ’s physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation—

23if you continue in your faith, established and firm, and do not move from the hope held out in the gospel. This is the gospel that you heard and that has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become a servant.
24Now I rejoice in what I am suffering for you, and I fill up in my flesh what is still lacking in regard to Christ’s afflictions, for the sake of his body, which is the church.

25I have become its servant by the commission God gave me to present to you the word of God in its fullness— 26the mystery that has been kept hidden for ages and generations, but is now disclosed to the Lord’s people.

27To them God has chosen to make known among the Gentiles the glorious riches of this mystery, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory.

28He is the one we proclaim, admonishing and teaching everyone with all wisdom, so that we may present everyone fully mature in Christ.

29To this end I strenuously contend with all the energy Christ so powerfully works in me.

Colossians

 

[PeterJens]

Peter, hi,
I thought now would be a good time to ask a few questions for you to clarify so that I and maybe others can learn.
When you use the word talisman, what do you mean?
It has many uses.
Also, you say you met with problems with other sects.
What other sects might these be?
I'd like to know so I can avoid them also.
And you say you know people have real bitterness in their hearts.
How do you know this?
How often do you know this?
I would like to know this too.

A Talisman is a marker you have that has power, but is actually just superstition.

The sect was muslims, who are the most extreme legalists you can come across.

Bitterness is expressed by being super-sensitive to certain trigger ideas.
When you talk to these people you are quickly either friends or the enemy who are
the people they still feel bitter about. The biggest indication of this is the polarised
conversation then ensues and the continual accusation one is lieing, and do not belief
what one actually does.

I have had this happen a few times. You know when this is mistaken when the other
side actually listen to what you are saying and back off.

Funnily over the time here though I go to a baptist church my theology is closer
to methodism. Now if people want to condemn all methodists, then I suppose I
must be guilty as well.

Hope this answers the questions you are having, God bless, Peter

 

[FranC]

Crucifying yourself....are we done or are we doing?


17 This I say therefore, and affirm together with the Lord, that you walk no longer just as the Gentiles also walk, in the futility of their mind,

18 being darkened in their understanding, excluded from the life of God, because of the ignorance that is in them, because of the hardness of their heart;

19 and they, having become callous, have given themselves over to sensuality, for the practice of every kind of impurity with greediness.

20 But you did not learn Christ in this way, 21 if indeed you have heard Him and have been taught in Him, just as truth is in Jesus,

22 that, in reference to your former manner of life, you lay aside the old self, which is being corrupted in accordance with the lusts of deceit,

23 and that you be renewed in the spirit of your mind,

24 and put on the new self, which in the likeness of God has been created in righteousness and holiness of the truth. Ephesians



unless someone becomes like Enoch and is too good for this world, we do indeed crucify our flesh

we are positionally crucified...not practically crucified

if you still have to say no to yourself...and please show me the superman/woman who does not...then you are DAILY crucifying your flesh

religion is not a dirty word...the Bible describes it this way

Pure and undefiled religion in the sight of our God and Father is this: to visit orphans and widows in their distress, and to keep oneself unstained by the world. James 1:27

how do you put on the new self if you do not put OFF the old self? we are positionaly one thing, and applicationly another...and I don't think applicationaly is even a word so I guess I just invented a new word

Hi Lauren,
Up in another post, you said this, which I wholeheartedly agree with:

I am more than a little concerned with the constant barrage of videos being presented that demonstrate a LACK of understanding and a mish mash of ideas and presentations

I can only say to those who actually want to learn something, to go the Bible and start at the beginning and read all of it...get yourself some proper books on doctrine and do a systematic study...

frankly, this idea that God wants people to read the same Psalm over and over for a month or a year, or has people going willy nilly all over the place and reading or doing word studies is NOT making any good students of scripture

we are told to study to show ourselves good workmen, so that we have no reason to be stymied by all the loose ends and endless debates and godless demonic ideas that pass for doctrine in many circles

you cannot do that if you just skip over things, get ideas from others and then slam them together and suppose you have now studied

Then in the above, current, post you speak about being "positionally" in Christ. Is this biblical? Where is the scripture in the bible? I never heard of this.

BTW, just as an aside. Do you believe we still have the sin nature?

Fran

 

[FranC]

Crucifying yourself....are we done or are we doing?


17 This I say therefore, and affirm together with the Lord, that you walk no longer just as the Gentiles also walk, in the futility of their mind,

18 being darkened in their understanding, excluded from the life of God, because of the ignorance that is in them, because of the hardness of their heart;

19 and they, having become callous, have given themselves over to sensuality, for the practice of every kind of impurity with greediness.

20 But you did not learn Christ in this way, 21 if indeed you have heard Him and have been taught in Him, just as truth is in Jesus,

22 that, in reference to your former manner of life, you lay aside the old self, which is being corrupted in accordance with the lusts of deceit,

23 and that you be renewed in the spirit of your mind,

24 and put on the new self, which in the likeness of God has been created in righteousness and holiness of the truth. Ephesians



unless someone becomes like Enoch and is too good for this world, we do indeed crucify our flesh

we are positionally crucified...not practically crucified

if you still have to say no to yourself...and please show me the superman/woman who does not...then you are DAILY crucifying your flesh

religion is not a dirty word...the Bible describes it this way

Pure and undefiled religion in the sight of our God and Father is this: to visit orphans and widows in their distress, and to keep oneself unstained by the world. James 1:27

how do you put on the new self if you do not put OFF the old self? we are positionaly one thing, and applicationly another...and I don't think applicationaly is even a word so I guess I just invented a new word

Hey Lauren,
We have enough WORDS to explain so we could talk to each other.
Don't go inventing any new ones!!

Fran

 

[FranC]

Yes. There must have been. Because Gods Chosen people were under the law in the OT.

In the NT they are not under the law.

A good portion of the NT is talking to people who either are still under the law or are trying to mix the Gospel with some portion of OT law keeping.

There was no way for a person in the old dispensation (as you refer to it) to not be under the law. In the new dispensation there is a way to not be under the law.

I could keep going but it is too easy to twist scripture to try and place oneself back under a carnal commandment. It seemed to be the major issue that most of the Christians Paul spoke to had.

Romans 7:14 [FONT="]For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

[/FONT][/COLOR]Do we know that?

[B]Galatians 3:2-3[/B]
[COLOR=#000000][FONT="]2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?[/FONT]
[FONT="]3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

Why is Paul saying it is foolish for a person to continue, or go back to, their work at the law? Does this go against what the Lord Jesus has said in Matthew 5???[/FONT]

Grandpa,

I'm Always amazed at how much we agree with each other and yet we find differences.

You're absolutely right. In the Mosaic or Old covenant, we were under the Law. Man was discovered to be a sinner when the Law was issued. And man was told to keep the Law because he said that he COULD,
Exodus 19:8

But, of course, we know that man cannot keep all the commandments as were given in the O.T.

So in the O.T. we were under the Law.
In the N.T. or New Covenant, we are under Grace.

Does Grace nullify the Law. NO!
Romans 6:1 Should we continue in sin that Grace may abound? Paul said NO!

Sinning is missing the mark, not adhering to God's rules and commandments - so what's the differenc between the OC and the NC or the OT and the NT?

Jesus said He came to FULFIL the Law, not to abolish it.
Mathew 5:17-20

He was speaking of the MORAL LAW. The Moral Law is NOT abolished. In fact Jesus cut it all down to two commandments:
Mathew 22:37-39 There were 613 to be followed in the O.T.

If one keeps these two commandments, he keeps them all, they cover everything.

Jesus abolished the CEREMONIAL LAW.
Jesus abolished the CIVIL LAW.

He DID NOT abolish the MORAL LAW. In fact, He made it more difficult!
Mathew 5:27-28

So how could we be expected to keep the Moral Law?
The answer is in Romans 5:1-5

We now have the Holy Spirit within us to make us WANT to keep the Moral Law.
Do we? No. As long as we live, we will sin.
But God cannot be mocked. He knows if we're trying or not. He knows our heart, and we will be judged by our heart.
Jeremiah 31:33
Ezekiel 36:26

We need not fear the Law. I see too much fear on these threads.
Some grasp at the Law and forget Grace.
Some grasp at Grace and forget the Law.

We, through Jesus, can confidently say we have Grace to keep the Law.

We are under Grace.
Not under the Law.

Paul was right in teaching the gentiles that they did not have to become Jewish to be Christian. They did not have to sacrifice animal meat, they did not have to be circumcised, they did not have to follow any of the old civil or ceremonial laws, including marriage, praying, tithing, fasting, etc.

They are EXTERIOR signs, Jesus wants INTERIOR change.

There is no conflict between the O.C. and the N.C.
Each covenant did not supersede the prior. It only reinforced it, added to it, or made it better.

The New Covenant or Testament is BETTER than the Old Covenant (Mosaid) or Testament.

Fran

 

[FranC]

I believe the OSAS'ers are partly right and you're partly right.

OSAS is partly right in their belief that we cannot lose our salvation. I believe you're partly right in advocating that, to a certain extent, we are never relieved from living out our Christian lives "under the gun", so to speak.

We MUST press ourselves to remain faithful...to continue in the faith. MY difference with your position is this:

Once God saves someone, they can never become "unsaved" anymore than someone can become "unborn". The Bible says [I]"whom God foreknows, He predestines to[/I] [salvation]"
But the problem is...the challenge is...from our earthly perspective, we do not get to know in advance whether our name is indeed written down in the Book of Life. We might have a wonderfully strong assurance regarding such. We may have a wonderfully warm and close relationship with our Heavenly Father.

But the moment sin creeps into our life and we have willfully sinned against God...(this next part will be your favorite part)...we need to start asking ourselves the tough questions...we need to reacquaint ourselves with "the fear of the Lord"...we need to hold our feet to the fire...we need to start asking ourselves: Did Jesus have me in mind when He admonished "only those who do the will of the Father will [be saved]".

Was the Book of James talking about me when it says "faith without works is dead"? There are just too many passages in the Bible that indicate "once saved-always saved".

But the HUGE and tragic problem among traditional OSAS'ers is...they don't understand the danger of "presumption of salvation".

They won't usually admit it but...in mainstream conservative Church culture there is a relentless and prevailing (and flippant even?) presumption that virtually anyone who regularly darkens the door of conservative Bible-believing church is just automatically assumed to be saved...where I have seen the exact opposite:

Some of the worst, most unkind, most brutal, coldest, literal Jekyll-and-Hyde souls you'll ever know...go to church regularly​...and know ALL the lingo...sing ALL the songs...say ALL the prayers, etc.

HI MTF

I'm afraid you haven't understood my position.
I think it's because we love to argue over OSAS. It seems to be the prevalent thread, and I haven't been here that long.

Exchanging ideas is my goal. And giving food for thought to those reading along that may still be questioning so they could read both sides. I know I'm not going to convince YOU.

So...You say:
whom God foreknows, He predestines to salvation
True. God foreknows all who will be saved. He knew before anyone was born, who would be saved.
And those that were saved would be conformed the the image of His Son, Jesus - the first-born among many brethren.
Romans 8:29

This idea of being "unborn".
It's a TERM. Jesus said we must be born from above. born again, in
John 3:3 OR we cannot see the Kingdom of God. We must have the SPIRIT of God to see the Kingdom of God. Natural man cannot see it.
1 Corinthians 2:14

In John 3, Nicodemus asks Jesus how he could enter a second time into his mother's womb.
Jesus replies... That which is born of the flesh is flesh, that which is born of the spirit is spirit...
John 3:6

One is born of the flesh. When he dies, his flesh dies.
One is born of the spirit, if he abandons the life-giving force of Jesus, and denies God, does he still have God's spirit??
I say NO.
An UNBELIEVER CANNOT have in him the spirit of God.

Then you say this, which is my main reason for disliking OSAS:

from our earthly perspective, we do not get to know in advance whether our name is indeed written down in the Book of Life.

OSAS people can NEVER be sure if thy're saved or not! Because one day they may fall away and discover that they were "never saved to begin with". So how could they have any joy right now ??

I, OTOH, am certain of my salvation because, at this moment, I'm trusting in the Lord and know that He IS saving me.
This is real joy. If I hold on to Him forever, I will be saved forever.

Your next statement in very wrong:

But the moment sin creeps into our life and we have willfully sinned against God...(this next part will be your favorite part)...we need to start asking ourselves the tough questions...we need to reacquaint ourselves with "the fear of the Lord"...we need to hold our feet to the fire...we need to start asking ourselves: Did Jesus have me in mind when He admonished "only those who do the will of the Father will [be saved]".

I sin every day. I don't have to wait for it to creep in. I never ask myself any tought questions. I KNOW I'm a sinner. We all are. There is no fear of the Lord. There is LOVE for the Lord, which is what makes us WANT to obey Him. To the best of our ability. We will Always fail.

"Only those who do the will of My Father" We must do our best to do this. Jesus said to. He said to be perfect, as our Father in heaven is perfect. Do you really think, He meant to be "perfect"? I'm sure he didn't - since He understood human nature really well. He meant to use God as an example, to serve Him, to do the best we can.

I agree wholeheartedly with your last two paragraphs and this is why I think OSAS theology is Dangerous. Not to most believers, but certainly to some immature believers. It's an incorrect picture of why Jesus came here on earth.

1. To be our expeiation for sin.
2. To show us how God would want us to be (in his image, since that's how we were created).

So we agree a little. That's good!

Fran

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Hi Lauren,
Then in the above, current, post you speak about being "positionally" in Christ. Is this biblical? Where is the scripture in the bible? I never heard of this.

BTW, just as an aside. Do you believe we still have the sin nature?

Fran

Eph 1 would be a start.

Rom 8:1, 12: 5

1 Cor 1: 2, 1: 30

1 Cor 3: 1 (even babes are positionally "In Christ")

1 Cor 15: 18, Even the dead are "In Christ"

1 cor 15: 22

2 cor 1: 21, 2: 14. 5: 17,

Gal 3: 28

There are many more I am sure, but these should give you a start.