Eternal Security You CANNOT lose your salvation! by David J. Stewart | January 2004

[PeterJens]

A man had a fig tree growing in his vineyard, and he went to look for fruit on it but did not find any. So he said to the man who took care of the vineyard, ‘For three years now I’ve been coming to look for fruit on this fig tree and haven’t found any. Cut it down! Why should it use up the soil?’
“‘Sir,’ the man replied, ‘leave it alone for one more year, and I’ll dig around it and fertilize it. If it bears fruit next year, fine! If not, then cut it down.’
Luke 13:6-9

But suppose the servant says to himself, ‘My master is taking a long time in coming,’ and he then begins to beat the other servants, both men and women, and to eat and drink and get drunk. The master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he is not aware of. He will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the unbelievers.
Luke 12:45-46

I do not understand how someone can make a statement about the NT
and here are just two examples.


Make every effort to enter through the narrow door, because many, I tell you, will try to enter and will not be able to. 25 Once the owner of the house gets up and closes the door, you will stand outside knocking and pleading, ‘Sir, open the door for us.’
“But he will answer, ‘I don’t know you or where you come from.’
26 “Then you will say, ‘We ate and drank with you, and you taught in our streets.’
27 “But he will reply, ‘I don’t know you or where you come from. Away from me, all you evildoers!’
Luke 13:24-27

So many are totally complacent, happy to buy a ticket and not check
the price.

Matthew 10:39
Whoever finds their life will lose it, and whoever loses their life for my sake will find it.

Matthew 16:25
For whoever wants to save their life will lose it, but whoever loses their life for me will find it.

Mark 8:35
For whoever wants to save their life will lose it, but whoever loses their life for me and for the gospel will save it.

Luke 9:24
For whoever wants to save their life will lose it, but whoever loses their life for me will save it.

Luke 17:33
Whoever tries to keep their life will lose it, and whoever loses their life will preserve it.

John 12:25
Anyone who loves their life will lose it, while anyone who hates their life in this world will keep it for eternal life.

Dying to your own life and giving everything to Christ is the price.

 

[FranC]

I like the term "Lordship salvation" but it's the "application" of it that some give that distorts the gospel and it actually nullifies the grace of God from operating in our life like it should.

I watched the video on Lordship Salvation.
Isn't it supposed to be applied?
How is applied wrongly?

I'd like to understand better this fear of having to do what Jesus commanded.

Fran

 

[Grace777x70]

Those that have received Christ have chosen the "door" which is Christ alone by grace through faith. We have died on the cross with Christ and we rose to newness of life in our new creation.

We do not die to ourselves because we have already died with Christ on the cross. That's foolishness - we live to God now because we have already died.

Religion always gets things backwards and trying to achieve what Christ has already done.

We just need to have our minds renewed to the truths of the new creation - the new heart that we have in Christ now.

Galatians 2:20 (NASB)
[SUP]20 [/SUP] "I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me.

Romans 6:5-6 (NASB)
[SUP]5 [/SUP] For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection,

[SUP]6 [/SUP] knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin;

How many times is Jesus dying to Himself now?

If we don't know that we have died and therefor we create a religion of trying to die to ourselves then we will never experience the power of His resurrection life.

Romans 6:7-8 (NASB)
[SUP]7 [/SUP] for he who has died is freed from sin.

[SUP]8 [/SUP] Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him,

If we have died with Christ - then how are we to view our true selves in Christ now?

Romans 6:10-11 (NASB)
[SUP]10 [/SUP] For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God.

[SUP]11 [/SUP] Even so consider yourselves to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I watched the video on Lordship Salvation.
Isn't it supposed to be applied?
How is applied wrongly?

I'd like to understand better this fear of having to do what Jesus commanded.

Fran

I like to think of it this way.

Lordship salvation focuses on God as lord. which is not bad. But they do not understand God as father (GRACE) Phariseeism would be an example. They held God up as lord with all their religion rules and regulations, and did it with honest faith that this is what God wanted.. Yet they rejected grace.

 

[Grace777x70]

I watched the video on Lordship Salvation.
Isn't it supposed to be applied?
How is applied wrongly?

I'd like to understand better this fear of having to do what Jesus commanded.

Fran

I don't understand what you mean but there is a whole thread about it where people talk about both aspects of it. It talks about the way some people "apply it".

It sounds good as a term but what some people actually mean by it - it is a different story then the real gospel.

http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/137878-lordship-salvation-false-teaching.html

 

[FranC]

Not sure.

I've had several debates with Roman Catholics and they all have pointed to faith AND good works as being the basis of receiving salvation.
They believe in good works like I do. AFTER salvation, we must also do good works. Not to maintain salvation but because Jesus commanded this. For instance in Mathew 5 He says we are to change interanally. In Mathew 25 He specifically says to feed the poor, cloth the naked, visit the sick, etc. This are things TO DO.

According the Roman Catholics that I talk with, nothing has changed from the beginning.
Ask them if they've ever heard of the Second Vatican Council (1963)
Ask them if remarried couples could receive communion.
Ask them if they're keeping up-to-date because it's necessary for them.


Necessary as the proof of salvation or the means of salvation?
Works DO NOT SAVE. Did you read the CCC paragraphs I posted for you?

Works are necessary to show our faith (James 2:14-18) but we are not saved by works (Ephesians 2:8,9).

Many Catholics seem to believe that works are what is saving them and don't study the Bible. Been there, done that.
It doesn't matter what SOME CATHOLICS BELIEVE.
It matters what the catholic Church TEACHES.
Ive' said that Catholics DO NOT know their religion.

They certainly do. They confuse justification with ongoing sanctification and believe that justification is a process. I've heard Catholics state this many times.
Catholics mix up justification and sanctification. i stated this in my last post to you. I'm not willing to get into the difference unless you want to start a Catholic thread...

Catholics believe that we are saved by baptism.
Did I not state that it's taught by the RCC that AT SOME POINT IN AN ADULT'S LIFE their baptism MUST BE ACCEPTED. Do you understand what this means??

Works are necessary to show that our faith is genuine. I have said many times. Faith is the root of salvation and works are the fruit. No fruit at all would demonstrate there is no root.

We are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works.

I've had many discussions with Joe Mizzi (a former Roman Catholic) on this website - Just for Catholics: Answers
Really? Tell Mr. Mizzi I'd be willing to converse with him. No problem.Fran .

.........................

 

[PeterJens]

Those that have received Christ have chosen the "door" which is Christ alone by grace through faith. We have died on the cross with Christ and we rose to newness of life in our new creation.

We do not die to ourselves because we have already died with Christ on the cross. That's foolishness - we live to God now because we have already died.

Religion always gets things backwards and trying to achieve what Christ has already done.

Hi talisman believer,

What Jesus has always said, following Him takes sacrifice, is difficult and costs.
All you are saying is Yahoo, we have everything now so lets partyyyyyyy.

Your spirit is obvious, always in denial, and flipping scriptures about victory and encouragement,
and ignoring the principles of self discipline, faithfulness, sacrifice and love.

Therefore, I urge you, brothers and sisters, in view of God’s mercy, to offer your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and pleasing to God—this is your true and proper worship.
Rom 12:1

But even if I am being poured out like a drink offering on the sacrifice and service coming from your faith, I am glad and rejoice with all of you.
Phil 2:17

You also, like living stones, are being built into a spiritual house to be a holy priesthood, offering spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.
1 Peter 2:5

No discipline seems pleasant at the time, but painful. Later on, however, it produces a harvest of righteousness and peace for those who have been trained by it.
Heb 12:11

For it is commendable if someone bears up under the pain of unjust suffering because they are conscious of God.
1 Peter 2:19

It teaches us to say “No” to ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright and godly lives in this present age.
Titus 2:12

For this very reason, make every effort to add to your faith goodness; and to goodness, knowledge; and to knowledge, self-control; and to self-control, perseverance; and to perseverance, godliness; and to godliness, mutual affection; and to mutual affection, love.
2 Peter 1:5-7

All the above things are difficult and take dedication and commitment.
And the reason is, is because love burns alive in our souls and hearts.

But talisman believers do not understand this at all, because their hearts are
full of desires they cannot control and burn constantly against the gospel they
claim to know and follow, though their daily testimony testifies otherwise.

 

[FranC]

Well, yeah, sort of.

Hebrews 7:11-19
[FONT=&quot]11 If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]13 For he of whom these things are spoken pertaineth to another tribe, of which no man gave attendance at the altar.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]14 For it is evident that our Lord sprang out of Juda; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]15 And it is yet far more evident: for that after the similitude of Melchisedec there ariseth another priest,[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]16 Who is made, not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]17 For he testifieth, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]18 For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]19 For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God.

Do you understand what is being said here? And to whom it is being said?[/FONT]

Hi Grandpa,
Sorry I'm so late.

I hope your question is sincere and not meant in a a derogatory way.

What you are posting above, Hebrews 7:11-19, does NOT REPLY to my question.
It seemed to me that you were saying there are two dispensations.
TWO means that there are one set of rules for ONE DISPENSATION,
and a different set of rules for THE SECOND DISPENSATION.

If I've misunderstood you, we could end right here.
If I've understood you, then I'll continue...

What you have posted is referring to the better priesthood of Christ. I could go verse by verse if you like.
It's referring to the difference between the Old or Mosaic Covenant and the New Covenant. I'm well versed in this too.

I'm not referring to any of this.

Are you saying there are two sets of rules?
Jesus said he DID NOT come to ABOLISH the Law but to fulfill it.
Yet, He said, we are still to keep the Law.
Mathew 5:17-20.

So what is the difference?
In the O.C. only the high priest was allowed into the Holy of Holies.
When Jesus was dying on the cross, the veil was torn, and now WE are all allowed into the holy of holies.
Luke 23:45

We now have a superior High Priest in the order of Melchisedek.
Does this deny the Law?

Fran

 

[LaurenTM]

Lordship salvation is NOT a good idea and NOT a good term

it confuses salvation with the work of the Spirit of God to sanctify the believer

EVERY knee will bow and EVERY tongue will confess that Jesus is Lord...however, it is not a requirement for salvation

Jesus said 'why do you call me Lord? and yet do not do the things I say?

so be careful...how can someone be doing what Christ says to do, if they not know Him?

how, for those who constantly state grace grace grace...can the ADDED requisite of calling Jesus Lord before you know what it means play into salvation?

Lordship salvation is the gospel according to John MacArthur

I am more than a little concerned with the constant barrage of videos being presented that demonstrate a LACK of understanding and a mish mash of ideas and presentations

I can only say to those who actually want to learn something, to go the Bible and start at the beginning and read all of it...get yourself some proper books on doctrine and do a systematic study...

frankly, this idea that God wants people to read the same Psalm over and over for a month or a year, or has people going willy nilly all over the place and reading or doing word studies is NOT making any good students of scripture

we are told to study to show ourselves good workmen, so that we have no reason to be stymied by all the loose ends and endless debates and godless demonic ideas that pass for doctrine in many circles

you cannot do that if you just skip over things, get ideas from others and then slam them together and suppose you have now studied

 

[LaurenTM]

Originally Posted by Grace777x70

Those that have received Christ have chosen the "door" which is Christ alone by grace through faith. We have died on the cross with Christ and we rose to newness of life in our new creation.

We do not die to ourselves because we have already died with Christ on the cross. That's foolishness - we live to God now because we have already died.


Religion always gets things backwards and trying to achieve what Christ has already done.

actually, religion is not in and of itself a person

people get things backwards and mixed up

 

[LaurenTM]

Your eternal destiny depends on your understanding and personally believing the truth that Paul has been hammering on in Romans 4, that we are justified (declared righteous) by faith alone. We are not justified by works or by moral behavior, but rather by faith in the God who credits righteousness to the ungodly apart from works (Rom. 4:1-8). This blessing is not based on religious rituals (4:9-12) or on keeping the Law, which only serves to condemn us (4:13-15). Rather, as Paul now shows,

Saving faith is rooted in God’s grace, it rests on God’s promise, it revels in God’s glory, and it relies on God’s power.​

Paul is arguing that Abraham, whom the Jews rightly extolled as the father of their faith, was justified by faith alone, not by being circumcised or by keeping the Law. And as such, Abraham is not only the father of believing Jews, but also of Gentiles who believe. So Paul now expounds on the nature of Abraham’s faith as an example for us all.

some decent teaching HERE on what actual SAVING FAITH is


foundational truths are needed...not another video or what someone 'thinks' is a good idea

if y'all can't even get actual salvation agreed upon, honestly, I begin to think you are making things up

 

[LaurenTM]

Crucifying yourself....are we done or are we doing?


17 This I say therefore, and affirm together with the Lord, that you walk no longer just as the Gentiles also walk, in the futility of their mind,

18 being darkened in their understanding, excluded from the life of God, because of the ignorance that is in them, because of the hardness of their heart;

19 and they, having become callous, have given themselves over to sensuality, for the practice of every kind of impurity with greediness.

20 But you did not learn Christ in this way, 21 if indeed you have heard Him and have been taught in Him, just as truth is in Jesus,

22 that, in reference to your former manner of life, you lay aside the old self, which is being corrupted in accordance with the lusts of deceit,

23 and that you be renewed in the spirit of your mind,

24 and put on the new self, which in the likeness of God has been created in righteousness and holiness of the truth. Ephesians



unless someone becomes like Enoch and is too good for this world, we do indeed crucify our flesh

we are positionally crucified...not practically crucified

if you still have to say no to yourself...and please show me the superman/woman who does not...then you are DAILY crucifying your flesh

religion is not a dirty word...the Bible describes it this way

Pure and undefiled religion in the sight of our God and Father is this: to visit orphans and widows in their distress, and to keep oneself unstained by the world. James 1:27

how do you put on the new self if you do not put OFF the old self? we are positionaly one thing, and applicationly another...and I don't think applicationaly is even a word so I guess I just invented a new word

 

[Grandpa]

Hi Grandpa,
Sorry I'm so late.

I hope your question is sincere and not meant in a a derogatory way.

What you are posting above, Hebrews 7:11-19, does NOT REPLY to my question.
It seemed to me that you were saying there are two dispensations.
TWO means that there are one set of rules for ONE DISPENSATION,
and a different set of rules for THE SECOND DISPENSATION.

If I've misunderstood you, we could end right here.
If I've understood you, then I'll continue...

What you have posted is referring to the better priesthood of Christ. I could go verse by verse if you like.
It's referring to the difference between the Old or Mosaic Covenant and the New Covenant. I'm well versed in this too.

I'm not referring to any of this.

Are you saying there are two sets of rules?
Jesus said he DID NOT come to ABOLISH the Law but to fulfill it.
Yet, He said, we are still to keep the Law.
Mathew 5:17-20.

So what is the difference?
In the O.C. only the high priest was allowed into the Holy of Holies.
When Jesus was dying on the cross, the veil was torn, and now WE are all allowed into the holy of holies.
Luke 23:45

We now have a superior High Priest in the order of Melchisedek.
Does this deny the Law?

Fran

Yes. There must have been. Because Gods Chosen people were under the law in the OT.

In the NT they are not under the law.

A good portion of the NT is talking to people who either are still under the law or are trying to mix the Gospel with some portion of OT law keeping.

There was no way for a person in the old dispensation (as you refer to it) to not be under the law. In the new dispensation there is a way to not be under the law.

I could keep going but it is too easy to twist scripture to try and place oneself back under a carnal commandment. It seemed to be the major issue that most of the Christians Paul spoke to had.

Romans 7:14 [FONT=&quot]For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

[/FONT]Do we know that?

Galatians 3:2-3
[FONT=&quot]2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

Why is Paul saying it is foolish for a person to continue, or go back to, their work at the law? Does this go against what the Lord Jesus has said in Matthew 5???[/FONT]

 

[MattTooFor]

Originally Posted by PeterJens

Amazing grace is that which changes an open heart, to learn how to carry pain,
and still love, because He who loved us, died for us in pain and agony so that we
might be free.

It is impossible to know Him without also knowing the pain within and allow others
to hurt us, carrying their sins in our hearts and forgiving them because we are
forgiven ourselves for our hurts done against others.

this has to be one of the most un-biblical things I have ever read. the word of God has NOTHING to do with how we " feel ". this is new-age garbage. God cares about what we BELIEVE, not how we feel. do you believe in His Son, and him crucified. and resurrected . that Is what God cares about, not about how we " feel ".

I've seen you previously beating up on this PeterJens guy. I don't know what your history is with each other but...there is nothing even remotely "unbiblical" about what he said. What's up with that? He just seems to have a particularly 'devotional' approach to his walk. God only what some of the folks on this discussion board have previously gone through in their lives. I'm picking up from some of his comments, he may have gone through some fairly serious pain and heartbreak. Maybe go a little easier on the guy?

 

[MattTooFor]

Faith works righteousness in the believer, so Gods grace is to not count the sin against them.
If the sin is not resolved it destroys the faith and they fall away.

The test is when believers are confronted with their failure, will they rebel and stay in a broken
condition, to repent, confess and accept healing from Christ.

David and Bathsheba. David has sinned, but tried to hide, but when confronted, repented of
his behaviour. Peter denied Christ yet his faith stayed strong.

The Lord appears to be declaring our sanctification is the walk of purification, but through trials
we have a real choice, to walk or to walk away. We are in one sense always walking deeper,
and capable of getting much wrong, but the Lord takes us on.

So it is the relationship which is salvation, communion, but it can be tested, and stretched.
Marriages are no different, where explosions and miss-understanding happens, but the
relationship continues, sometimes through tears and hard times, sometimes through joy and
good times. We are a changing picture moving towards Christ, where we are maturing to His
image.

Honestly, I am puzzled why there are a few folks here that are constantly dogging you, Peter. I just read though a handful of your posts. Seems like all good stuff. What's the furor about - LOL? Admittedly, you're a bit 'poetic' in your writing style. So what? Good grief.

If I'm understanding you correctly, you have somewhat of a similar message to mine, which is...if a person was at one time, someone we could describe as a "believer"...yet they flat-out walked away from God...there IS such as thing as "apostasy". In other words, one must surmise at some point...this was not a genuine believer...this was someone who fits one of the profiles described in the Parable of the Sower...which is one of THE most unpopular and brushed-aside passages of Scripture in modern-day, fuzzy-wuzzy, feel-good, fluffy-fluff mainstream Evangelicalism.

 

[Grandpa]

Honestly, I am puzzled why there are a few folks here that are constantly dogging you, Peter. I just read though a handful of your posts. Seems like all good stuff. What's the furor about - LOL? Admittedly, you're a bit 'poetic' in your writing style. So what? Good grief.

If I'm understanding you correctly, you have somewhat of a similar message to mine, which is...if a person was at one time, someone we could describe as a "believer"...yet they flat-out walked away from God...there IS such as thing as "apostasy". In other words, one must surmise at some point...this was not a genuine believer...this was someone who fits one of the profiles described in the Parable of the Sower...which is one of THE most unpopular and brushed-aside passages of Scripture in modern-day, fuzzy-wuzzy, feel-good, fluffy-fluff mainstream Evangelicalism.

Birds of a feather flock together.

 

[Enow]

A man had a fig tree growing in his vineyard, and he went to look for fruit on it but did not find any. So he said to the man who took care of the vineyard, ‘For three years now I’ve been coming to look for fruit on this fig tree and haven’t found any. Cut it down! Why should it use up the soil?’
“‘Sir,’ the man replied, ‘leave it alone for one more year, and I’ll dig around it and fertilize it. If it bears fruit next year, fine! If not, then cut it down.’
Luke 13:6-9

But suppose the servant says to himself, ‘My master is taking a long time in coming,’ and he then begins to beat the other servants, both men and women, and to eat and drink and get drunk. The master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he is not aware of. He will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the unbelievers.
Luke 12:45-46

I do not understand how someone can make a statement about the NT
and here are just two examples.

If you read on....

Luke 12:[SUP]47 [/SUP]And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.[SUP]48 [/SUP]But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.[SUP]49 [/SUP]I am come to send fire on the earth; and what will I, if it be already kindled?

Notice how Jesus still referred to those that have been cut ( castaways & left behind ) are still called His servants? That is a reference to saved believers being left behind at the pre tribulational rapture event for not looking to Jesus as their Good Shepherd to depart from iniquity before the Bridegroom had come.

Make every effort to enter through the narrow door, because many, I tell you, will try to enter and will not be able to. 25 Once the owner of the house gets up and closes the door, you will stand outside knocking and pleading, ‘Sir, open the door for us.’
“But he will answer, ‘I don’t know you or where you come from.’
26 “Then you will say, ‘We ate and drank with you, and you taught in our streets.’
27 “But he will reply, ‘I don’t know you or where you come from. Away from me, all you evildoers!’
Luke 13:24-27

This iniquity that Jesus is referring to are these "movements of the 'spirit' " which is not the Holy Spirit, because they approached God by way of the Holy Spirit #1 iniquity as per John 14:6 & John 10:1 and by believing they can receive the Holy Spirit "again" after a sign, even a sign of tongues which comes with no interpretation ( 2 Corinthians 11:1-4 & 13:5 ) They are still saved, but have fallen away from the faith & unless they repent, shun vain & profane babbling and pray normally, leaning on Jesus Christ all the time in keeping their eyes on Him especially in worship in order to honor the Father, ( John 5:22-23 & John 14:6 again ) so as to chase no more after seducing spirits to receive again after a sign in the flesh like the five foolish virgins, because the Bridegroom is coming soon, they run the risk of being left behind.

So many are totally complacent, happy to buy a ticket and not check
the price.

Matthew 10:39
Whoever finds their life will lose it, and whoever loses their life for my sake will find it.

Matthew 16:25
For whoever wants to save their life will lose it, but whoever loses their life for me will find it.

Mark 8:35
For whoever wants to save their life will lose it, but whoever loses their life for me and for the gospel will save it.

Luke 9:24
For whoever wants to save their life will lose it, but whoever loses their life for me will save it.

Luke 17:33
Whoever tries to keep their life will lose it, and whoever loses their life will preserve it.

John 12:25
Anyone who loves their life will lose it, while anyone who hates their life in this world will keep it for eternal life.

Dying to your own life and giving everything to Christ is the price.

Those verses are not about how we live down here, but being ready to leave our lives and the people we love down here when the Bridegroom comes. Luke 14:15-24 is the best example when believers love their lives down here that they do not want to leave it; and Jesus expounded on that some more in Luke 14:25-36 showing the cost of discipleship is leaving people we love & our lives down here to leave when the Bridegroom comes.

So saved believers can be snared by the cares of this life to make like Lot's wife in not wishing to leave it. It is the giving up of this life to leave when it is time to leave when the Bridegroom comes is what those references for.

Luke 21:[SUP]33 [/SUP]Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.[SUP]34 [/SUP]And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.[SUP]35 [/SUP]For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.[SUP]36 [/SUP]Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

The pre trib rapture is what differentiates the vessel unto honor being received, and the castaways that will become the vessels unto dishonor in His House for not departing from iniquity as they will testify to the power of God in salvation for all those that believe, even those that believe in His name.

Since we trust Jesus Christ to finish His work in us; we can believe He will do the same for those left behind. The excommunication that Paul preached in 1 Corinthians 5th chapter is what God will do when He judges His House first at the pre trib rapture event ( 1 Peter 4:17-19 ) to restore the wayward to the path of righteousness for His name's sake for He is the Good Shepherd as He is faithful to keep their souls while they suffer the great tribulation for He will lose nothing of all the Father has given Him. John 6:39-40

It will be a terrible thing to fall in the hands of the living God, but God the Father will chasten and scourge every child He receives, and that includes those left behind that will serve as the vessels unto dishonor in His House.

That is why the prodigal son has still lost his first inheritance, but he is still son; this is why the elder son in the field has all that the father has which is indicative that it is not the same for the prodigal son. So like Esau giving up his birthright for a meal, there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth over the loss of that eternal glory that comes with our salvation which is why God is testified as performing a miracle in Revelation as wiping the tears from their eyes in getting them past their loss.

Physical death awaits those unrepentant saved believers living in sin and/or religious works that deny Him, but the door is still open for the Marriage Supper and so may every one that has His seal, trust Jesus Christ right now as your Good Shepherd to help you depart from iniquity before the Bridegroom comes because of the fire that is coming on the earth.

 

[PeterJens]

Honestly, I am puzzled why there are a few folks here that are constantly dogging you, Peter. I just read though a handful of your posts. Seems like all good stuff. What's the furor about - LOL? Admittedly, you're a bit 'poetic' in your writing style. So what? Good grief.

There is a real bitterness in their hearts towards biblical expression of faith and they
wish to bring down anyone who expresses it.

I have met this problem with other sects in the past, and once they have labelled all
the points you could make as wrong, there is little communication just jibs.

I am sure I am totally evil, lost, possessed, the anti-christ etc in their eyes, because
I know who I am in Christ and why I walk as I do. Most in their experience fold under
their pressure, because it is so relentless but driven by emotional hurt and frustration.

I do admire their perseverance, and I do understand why they are convicted as they
are. If I was in their position I would react in the same way.

I have learnt so much in the Lord through this experience and from them, I just praise
God for His Spirit, His love and His blessing. Even here enemies linger, where you would
expect only friends. But some are just miss-guided while others false teachers. But
all are blessed by God and His grace, so Amen, this builds up His body to perfection through
suffering. Halleluyah.

 

[MattTooFor]

AS LONG AS YOU COMMIT yourself to HIM, you are saved, just like Paul said up above.

If you are NO LONGER COMMITED, are you still saved??

I believe the OSAS'ers are partly right and you're partly right.

OSAS is partly right in their belief that we cannot lose our salvation. I believe you're partly right in advocating that, to a certain extent, we are never relieved from living out our Christian lives "under the gun", so to speak.

We MUST press ourselves to remain faithful...to continue in the faith. MY difference with your position is this:

Once God saves someone, they can never become "unsaved" anymore than someone can become "unborn". The Bible says "whom God foreknows, He predestines to [salvation]"

But the problem is...the challenge is...from our earthly perspective, we do not get to know in advance whether our name is indeed written down in the Book of Life. We might have a wonderfully strong assurance regarding such. We may have a wonderfully warm and close relationship with our Heavenly Father.

But the moment sin creeps into our life and we have willfully sinned against God...(this next part will be your favorite part)...we need to start asking ourselves the tough questions...we need to reacquaint ourselves with "the fear of the Lord"...we need to hold our feet to the fire...we need to start asking ourselves: Did Jesus have me in mind when He admonished "only those who do the will of the Father will [be saved]".

Was the Book of James talking about me when it says "faith without works is dead"? There are just too many passages in the Bible that indicate "once saved-always saved".

But the HUGE and tragic problem among traditional OSAS'ers is...they don't understand the danger of "presumption of salvation".

They won't usually admit it but...in mainstream conservative Church culture there is a relentless and prevailing (and flippant even?) presumption that virtually anyone who regularly darkens the door of conservative Bible-believing church is just automatically assumed to be saved...where I have seen the exact opposite:

Some of the worst, most unkind, most brutal, coldest, literal Jekyll-and-Hyde souls you'll ever know...go to church regularly​...and know ALL the lingo...sing ALL the songs...say ALL the prayers, etc.

 

[PeterJens]

If you read on....

You highlight a problem of quoting verses.
They are very rich with many different aspects and points.
What you will notice is I was highlighting just one of those many aspects.

We lose our life here for a life with Christ. This is both a one time act and
an on going act.

You want to believe a believer can never walk away and be lost, fine.
It has never been a big issue for me either way, because I know Christ and His love.
I am secure in His promises, so why do I need to know how He deals with others?

I can only think this is an advertising hording saying, come to join with us, once
in you can never leave. Sounds a bit like a cult, not very loving at all.