Acts /1cor 12, 13, 14 baptsim in the HG and gifts of the Spirit
- Thread starter CS1
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
No I don't believe in the 2nd blessing as they call it. What we see in acts is because the Holy Spirit had not been poured out on mankind yet. It was a big deal. To some it would seem like a second blessing to those who didn't know about it yet.
What I often wonder about though is where the disciples in acts were asked if they had received the baptism in the HS yet and they said they had not heard of this yet. So is it possible for those who don't know about the HS to be filled in a way they never knew before?
Maybe like having Him in His fulness without knowing you have him and so they come to know the fullness of being baptized in the spirit. Idk, just thinking out loud here.
There are those who are conservative Charismatics, not wanting to join in with the abuses. I think some would like to get rid of the name charismatic and find something else to use. Years ago it was called the full gospel.
I want to add that wherever Christians are you'll find the enemy. You'll find evil spirits who will attack everything that is holy, pure and of God.
That's why we need to not throw out the truth of the power of the Holy Spirit who works in the lives of His people.
Man's tendency is to go from one swing of the pendulum to the other side. Also, it's kind of hard to lump each group in the same category.
For instance the Pentecostal will say that you have to have the evidence of being baptized in the Holy Spirit with the evidence of speaking in tongues. Others say you're not even saved without speaking in tongues. Charismatics don't teach that - at least none of the churches I've been in.
So what's true?
Yes, some will speak in tongues.
Yes, some will prophecy.
Yes, some will heal.
Yes, some will cast out demons.
Yes, some will have discernment of spirits.
Yes, some will have the gift of faith.
Yes, some will have words of wisdom and words of knowledge.
I really believe the problem in the churches is that many want to compare gifts with one another or want what another has.
I was even taught how to speak in tongues. I never got the gift, but that didn't make others happy and that wanted me to just blurt out some words. What anguish I was in as a baby Christian being told I didn't have the baptism in the Spirit unless I spoke in tongues.
So I'm just saying not to say it's all wrong or evil or demonic.
The Calvary Chapel churches would probably be considered conservative Charismatic in their belief.
your point is some what lacking explanation. I will try to explain > In proper Biblical interpretation one clear way of known what is an action done in the bible if it is a Normative or descriptive. Example
You spoke of Paul praying over cloths and people getting healed; this is an action that is descriptive and should not be seen as a normative meaning this is recorded in the bible I think only once . So those who take this as to mean we are to do the samething every time or even at all is not correct. BUT what is a Normative we Christians are to pray for the sick as Jesus did, and the apostles. it is clear those who do this are trying to fleece the flock. ( get $$$$) . name calling and not providing correction shows lack of maturity. You know the problem how do you fix it ?
You spoke of Paul praying over cloths and people getting healed; this is an action that is descriptive and should not be seen as a normative meaning this is recorded in the bible I think only once . So those who take this as to mean we are to do the samething every time or even at all is not correct. BUT what is a Normative we Christians are to pray for the sick as Jesus did, and the apostles. it is clear those who do this are trying to fleece the flock. ( get $$$$) . name calling and not providing correction shows lack of maturity. You know the problem how do you fix it ?
Last edited:
sorry to not agree with your opinion or that your experience is the whole truth of the topic. You have an issue with Pentecostal I get that but everything you have said no where do I see any biblical reference. I am just pointing that out. You do not have to agree with me as many do not and that is ok it is very clear you do paint with a broad brush and a lot has changed in 40 years just saying. I have received credentialing from a very creditable bible school. and i continue to study. I have been to many places in the world and traveled the very journeys Paul did. Israel, Turkey, Egypt, Iraq, and Europe . that all means nothing I know . I really don't care if you believe it or not nor do I want you to do anything other than explain the points I have brought up in Acts 2 John 20:22, Luke 24:45 . If you chose to. If not great
If the thing you wrote in your post are true because they are your experience then they are only true to you because we cannot verify. BUT that is why I used Biblical references because that is an opportunity for you to provide Scripture to refute what I have said. I have not attacked you I have challenged your opinion.
it is very clear you do paint with a broad brush and a lot has changed in 40 years just saying. I have received credentialing from a very creditable bible school. and i continue to study. I have been to many places in the world and traveled the very journeys Paul did. Israel, Turkey, Egypt, Iraq, and Europe . that all means nothing I know . I really don't care if you believe it or not nor do I want you to do anything other than explain the points I have brought up in Acts 2 John 20:22, Luke 24:45 . If you chose to. If not great If the thing you wrote in your post are true because they are your experience then they are only true to you because we cannot verify. BUT that is why I used Biblical references because that is an opportunity for you to provide Scripture to refute what I have said. I have not attacked you I have challenged your opinion.
John 1:[SUP]12 [/SUP]But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:[SUP]13 [/SUP]Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
This is a reminder which reproves point # 4 below and at other parts of your reply below.
To expound on reproving point #4 above is Jesus's own words.
John 3:[SUP]5 [/SUP]Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.[SUP]6 [/SUP]That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.[SUP]7 [/SUP]Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.[SUP]8 [/SUP]The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
So being born again is being born of the Spirit. No Nicodemus is asking how one is born again as in saved.
[SUP]9 [/SUP]Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?10Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?[SUP]11 [/SUP]Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.[SUP]12 [/SUP]If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?
Now Jesus is telling us how.[SUP]
13[/SUP]And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
Now Jesus is hinting of His ascension as to when believers will be born again will happen.
[SUP]14 [/SUP]And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
Certainly will happen after His crucifixion in linking to happening after His ascension.
Now Jesus says how one is born again as in saved.
[SUP]15 [/SUP]That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.[SUP]16 [/SUP]For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Now... if you separate receiving the baptism of the Holy Spirit as separate from salvation, then you have this reproof.
Romans 8:[SUP]9 [/SUP]But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
So being born again as in being born of the Spirit is when a believer is saved. With the Holy Spirit and Jesus Christ & the Father in them, they have eternal life because God is with them, thus they are saved as in His.
Ephesians 1:[SUP]11 [/SUP]In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:[SUP]12 [/SUP]That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.[SUP]13 [/SUP]In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,[SUP]14 [/SUP]Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.[SUP]15 [/SUP]Wherefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus, and love unto all the saints,
For clarifying point #3, it is true that there is a sanctification during our walk with Him by faith ( see 1 John 1:3-7 ), but as far as salvation goes, the sanctification of the Spirit & the belief of the truth had occurred at the hearing of the gospel.
2 Thessalonians 2:[SUP]13 [/SUP]But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:[SUP]14 [/SUP]Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.[SUP]15 [/SUP]Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.
They were not saved until they had received the promise of the Spirit. Romans 8:9 says they are not His until then.
Those 12 men were not believers in Jesus Christ; Paul knew they were some kind of disciples but found out that they knew nothing about the Holy Spirit and inquired further to find that they were disciples of John the Baptist's. They were not believers in Jesus Christ nor baptized in His name for anybody to call them believers in Jesus Christ or His disciples. Paul had to tell them about Jesus Whom John the Baptist was preaching about and then those 12 men got baptized in Jesus's name and then they had received the promise of the Holy Ghost.
Just some truths to reconsider and discern by Him.
This is a reminder which reproves point # 4 below and at other parts of your reply below.
To expound on reproving point #4 above is Jesus's own words.
John 3:[SUP]5 [/SUP]Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.[SUP]6 [/SUP]That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.[SUP]7 [/SUP]Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.[SUP]8 [/SUP]The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
So being born again is being born of the Spirit. No Nicodemus is asking how one is born again as in saved.
[SUP]9 [/SUP]Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?10Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?[SUP]11 [/SUP]Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.[SUP]12 [/SUP]If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?
Now Jesus is telling us how.[SUP]
13[/SUP]And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
Now Jesus is hinting of His ascension as to when believers will be born again will happen.
[SUP]14 [/SUP]And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
Certainly will happen after His crucifixion in linking to happening after His ascension.
Now Jesus says how one is born again as in saved.
[SUP]15 [/SUP]That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.[SUP]16 [/SUP]For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Now... if you separate receiving the baptism of the Holy Spirit as separate from salvation, then you have this reproof.
Romans 8:[SUP]9 [/SUP]But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
So being born again as in being born of the Spirit is when a believer is saved. With the Holy Spirit and Jesus Christ & the Father in them, they have eternal life because God is with them, thus they are saved as in His.
Ephesians 1:[SUP]11 [/SUP]In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:[SUP]12 [/SUP]That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.[SUP]13 [/SUP]In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,[SUP]14 [/SUP]Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.[SUP]15 [/SUP]Wherefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus, and love unto all the saints,
For clarifying point #3, it is true that there is a sanctification during our walk with Him by faith ( see 1 John 1:3-7 ), but as far as salvation goes, the sanctification of the Spirit & the belief of the truth had occurred at the hearing of the gospel.
2 Thessalonians 2:[SUP]13 [/SUP]But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:[SUP]14 [/SUP]Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.[SUP]15 [/SUP]Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.
They were not saved until they had received the promise of the Spirit. Romans 8:9 says they are not His until then.
Those 12 men were not believers in Jesus Christ; Paul knew they were some kind of disciples but found out that they knew nothing about the Holy Spirit and inquired further to find that they were disciples of John the Baptist's. They were not believers in Jesus Christ nor baptized in His name for anybody to call them believers in Jesus Christ or His disciples. Paul had to tell them about Jesus Whom John the Baptist was preaching about and then those 12 men got baptized in Jesus's name and then they had received the promise of the Holy Ghost.
Just some truths to reconsider and discern by Him.
Carefully study the origin of the Pentecostal movement including the ideas put forth and the manifestations, however when someone describes a manifestation or an idea and says, God did this or that then remove the "God did" because that was placed on the manifestation or idea so as to make it appear to be of God. If any of it is really of God then an honest examination of the scriptures will prove it. After you have a nice list of ideas and manifestations then compare them honestly with scripture. That is really all there is to it, the beginning of Pentecostalism is totally unscriptural and that can easily be studied and proven. There are many Christians in Pentecostalism so obviously some of their teaching is correct. I am just saying that the distinctive Pentecostal things are wrong and dangerous..two baptisms in the spirit, extra-biblical manifestations of the spirit, giving god like status to certain leaders, holding healing services, living materially as kings and queens...none of that is biblical.
very Good Jesus is talking about the Born again experience which did not happen until His death and resurrection . In John 20:22 we see the Spirit breathed on them BY the Lord Himself . It is also clear that Nicademous did not understand what Jesus was saying But after John 20:22 something happened after they were in the presence of the risen Lord.Then they were told to wait . The empowering was not done to be born again, it was for power to do the works of God as Acts shows.
Last edited:
It is said by scholars that Apollos may have been among, but not with, the 12 disciples at Ephesus. Apollos believed in Jesus, but only was baptized in the fathers Baptism of repentence (water). Which he later believed in Christ unto salvation, which is the Baptism of the Holy Ghost. It can be argued that the disciples believed in Jesus, but not on the Holy Spirit which would follow through natural course. We believe in Christ UNTO salvation. They were then to become baptized into the Lord concerning His resurrection, leading to first fruits.
How could they have been baptized unless they had first heard the whole Gospel acount?
Paul only provided the name of Jesus, which meant that they had to have heard the Gospel before. But not the Holy Spirit of promise, which is the result.
How could they have been baptized unless they had first heard the whole Gospel acount?
Paul only provided the name of Jesus, which meant that they had to have heard the Gospel before. But not the Holy Spirit of promise, which is the result.
Last edited:
The new knowledge for the disciples was concerning the Holy Spirit. The Apostle Paul likely discerned their Brotherhood in the faith, having found disciples, which might have heard their discussion concerning Christ, but had not heard about the Holy Ghost. The scriptures are not clear. But nevertheless, this is a valid consideration.
The Apostle would not have approached evangelism by first mentioning the Holy Spirit, without having also mentioned Jesus as well. The Apostles preached "Christ, and Him crucified" followed inturn by the resurrection.
The Apostle would not have approached evangelism by first mentioning the Holy Spirit, without having also mentioned Jesus as well. The Apostles preached "Christ, and Him crucified" followed inturn by the resurrection.
CSI1- when we repent and believe, we become justified through faith so that inorder that our faith may result in sanctification by the outpouring of the Holy Spirit. The fire refers to ongoing sanctifucation which is the process of being renewed in the knowledge of God's judgement on the cross for our behalf, and the purification which comes from the shedding of the blood of Jesus, which covers us from our sins.
This leads to new life ( Baptism in the Holy Ghost).
There is one Baptism which is through faith which leads to new life. This is accomplished at once and in order through the inward working of the Spirit.
This leads to new life ( Baptism in the Holy Ghost).
There is one Baptism which is through faith which leads to new life. This is accomplished at once and in order through the inward working of the Spirit.
Lose what? You are either His or you were never saved.
Ephesians 4:[SUP]30 [/SUP]And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
The fact that you believe in Him means you are saved.
John 3:[SUP]18 [/SUP]He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
What we can lose is being that vessel unto honor in His House to attend the Marriage Supper by being a castaway as in left behind at the pre tribulational rapture event and thus becoming a vessel unto dishonor in His House.
So we all need to trust Jesus Christ as our personal Good Shepherd in helping us get ready by the KJV to discern good & evil by it so we know what we need Him for in helping us to depart from iniquity.
We are not running that race to obtain our salvation, we are running that race as saved believers by trusting Jesus Christ to finish that race for us as He will finish His work in us so we can receive those crowns. Those crowns are His crowning achievements in us which is why the elders were seen in the Book of Revelations as casting their crowns at His feet for we are the works of His hands.
When we stroll about New Jerusalem, the people will see the crowns on our heads of what Christ has done for us. This is His glory where no flesh nor men can boast in.
The vessels unto dishonor that are left behind from the Marriage Supper are still in His House and thus still His and thus still saved because they will testify to the power of God in salvation even from those that just believe in His name.
Ephesians 4:[SUP]30 [/SUP]And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
The fact that you believe in Him means you are saved.
John 3:[SUP]18 [/SUP]He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
What we can lose is being that vessel unto honor in His House to attend the Marriage Supper by being a castaway as in left behind at the pre tribulational rapture event and thus becoming a vessel unto dishonor in His House.
So we all need to trust Jesus Christ as our personal Good Shepherd in helping us get ready by the KJV to discern good & evil by it so we know what we need Him for in helping us to depart from iniquity.
We are not running that race to obtain our salvation, we are running that race as saved believers by trusting Jesus Christ to finish that race for us as He will finish His work in us so we can receive those crowns. Those crowns are His crowning achievements in us which is why the elders were seen in the Book of Revelations as casting their crowns at His feet for we are the works of His hands.
When we stroll about New Jerusalem, the people will see the crowns on our heads of what Christ has done for us. This is His glory where no flesh nor men can boast in.
The vessels unto dishonor that are left behind from the Marriage Supper are still in His House and thus still His and thus still saved because they will testify to the power of God in salvation even from those that just believe in His name.