Tongues Again???

[VCO]

In summary,

The real issue is you are reading ideas into the verses you cite that aren't there. And basically that last line shows an appeal to extra-biblical revelation and leadings that go beyond what is written in these scriptures. I don't believe you are getting genuine revelation in the way you interpret the singular 'tongue' differently in different verses, and many of the other assertions you make. When someone shows me verses that don't support their assertions at all, sometimes I don't percieve that as presenting verses to support their assertion. I can't read what is not there.

The idea that 'tongue' in the singular refers to fake tongues in the singular... but only this one time in the passage, and not those other four or five times... doesn't seem to be a good hermeneutical methodology.

And I asked for some evidence about your assertions about 'fake tongues' among Apollo priests. Plutarch, an Apollo priest in the first century, defended the oracle at Delphi (also in the Apollo cult) for speaking in more straightforward prose rather than poetry. Horoscopes and highly stylistic poetry can be hard to understand, but some authors in the past couple of centuries have interpreted statements about how difficult the oracle at Delphi was to understand to be evidence for less comprehensible speech.

Do your own History Research, you do not want to listen to me anyhow.

NO we do not read ideas into the verses, we read 1 Corinthians like it was written. It is a LETTER, not intended to be Book with chapters and verses; Chapter and verse numbers were added centuries later. IT IS A LETTER with the PRIMARY PURPOSE of confronting all of the problems in the Corinthian Church; and it was the most problematic Church of it's time. That is a FACT, and therefore all of the Letter is relevant to what was said in prior Chapters, because it all refers to confronting their problems and errors.

You read it as if Chapters that have nothing to do with later chapters, and as individual verses that you can pull out and try to apply them to try to make them fit your experience.

The Corinthian Church is NOT an example of a Church one wants to emulate, but rather to learn from their mistakes. You want a Church to Emulate, emulate the Thessalonians, or the Bereans.

I really got to stop checking this thread. It has become the new Excedrin Headache.

 

[presidente]

Do your own History Research, you do not want to listen to me anyhow.

NO we do not read ideas into the verses, we read 1 Corinthians like it was written. It is a LETTER, not intended to be Book with chapters and verses; Chapter and verse numbers were added centuries later. IT IS A LETTER with the PRIMARY PURPOSE of confronting all of the problems in the Corinthian Church; and it was the most problematic Church of it's time. That is a FACT, and therefore all of the Letter is relevant to what was said in prior Chapters, because it all refers to confronting their problems and errors.

You read it as if Chapters that have nothing to do with later chapters, and as individual verses that you can pull out and try to apply them to try to make them fit your experience.

I am well aware that a monk added the chapters and verses in the fourth century. Like I said before, the first book of the Bible I memorized completely was I Corinthians, so I used to be able to quote the whole thing. Parts of it are fuzzy and I have to look them up, but I can sort of go through the book in my mind. I think of it as a book that all flows together.

What you do in chapter 12 is draw an unreasonable conclusion. It is unreasonable to insist that Paul's comment about no one cursing Christ while speaking by the Spirit of God was referring to specific incidents of cursing Christ. But he was talking about their pagan past prior to this. It is totally unjustified to assume that the people were doing that in church. Paul doesn't mention a kind of fake pagan tongue in that chapter. You haven't shown good historical evidence for it. I quoted Plutarch which gave evidence that the Apollo priests uttered real language, but probably in a high style that was hard to understand (there was an expectation of poetry.) If some priests did babble, it is unlikely all the laity did. In any case, Paul doesn't mention it as an issue. Reading that idea into I Corinthians 14 is pure eisegesis.

Paul's instruction to believers not to seek their own is not a prohibition on self-edification or else reading the Bible or praying alone would be forbidden. It seems to me that you are grasping at straws to come up with a line of reasoning to make the singular 'tongue' bad in one verse, but not in others. Having a word change definitions in the same passage is an extremely shaky argument.

But you've made it clear that you aren't willing to learn anything about such issues.

The Corinthian Church is NOT an example of a Church one wants to emulate, but rather to learn from their mistakes. You want a Church to Emulate, emulate the Thessalonians, or the Bereans.

Thessalonians doesn't give us that much detail about what to do in church meetings or about the particulars of spirituals gifts. I Corinthians does. So we have to look at I Corinthians for that. If we want to learn about the man of sin and certain other eschatological issues, we can look at the letters to the Thessalonians. All scripture is profitable for doctrine, which includes I Corinthians. Paul's instructions about speaking in tongues are still inspired and profitable, even if the Corinthians had a lot of problems.

I really got to stop checking this thread. It has become the new Excedrin Headache.

It is totally up to you. You have been saying you would stop for about 60 pages.

 

[88]

Paul was to say the least a unique individual. Paul never claimed that he spoke with unknowable tongues. Paul using hyperbole said that even if he spoke with the tongues of angels and had no charity he would be as clanging brass.

No Paul was very well educated. Paul knew Hebrew, Latin and Greek so he had a command of many languages in his day. There is no evidence that Paul ever spoke in ecstatic utterances. Since Paul is writing a letter of correction to the Corinthians I imagine he would be quite disturbed by what goes on in the modern charismatic and Pentecostal circles.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

**** Paul as a Apostle could operate in all the gifts and function as a pastor, teacher, evangelist, prophet, and apostle---- tongues is a wonderful way to commune with God---- build ourselves up in the Spirit--- and receive insight into God's Word---- been involved for 40 years in ministry--- educated with Assemblies of God--- very reputable Pentecostal group------ some if my teachers were from Harvard---- Princeton---- and a number of first rate Universities...

 

[Enow]

Hold on a second here with your pronouncements. Did you even bother to read through the Bible to determine that there were not such prophecies in the Bible before you made your pronouncement? If not, that's irresponsible. You shouldn't decree such things if you have no reason to believe they are true. It's reckless.

Peter called David a prophet in Acts 2. But David did not go around saying, "Thus saith the Lord" like the other prophets. He wrote Psalms. Don't you believe David was prophetically inspired to write the Psalms that predicted the Christ?

David wrote a Psalm that told about the crucifixion. It started off, "My God, My God, why hast thou forsaken Me"-- words which Christ spoke on the cross. Don't you believe that is prophetic?

And consider Peter's own words about David in Acts 2, where he quotes David's prayer and calls David a prophet.

25 For David speaketh concerning him, I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved:
26 Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope:
27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
28 Thou hast made known to me the ways of life; thou shalt make me full of joy with thy countenance.
29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.
30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;

You wrote:

You majorly contradict yourself, because you take a passage about tongues being from God, then you condemn those who believe them as being from God. Your interpretation is not consistent with the New Testament, because God was not opposing those who spoke in tongues in the first century. The unbelief was in the hearts of those who rejected speaking in tongues, among many other works of God.

The Bible commands believers to be filled with the Holy Ghost.

Luke 11
11 If a son shall ask bread of any of you that is a father, will he give him a stone? or if he ask a fish, will he for a fish give him a serpent?
12 Or if he shall ask an egg, will he offer him a scorpion?
13 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?

Let's be clear on what we are talking about;

I was talking about how those who seek tongues which never comes with interpretation but is just used as a prayer language of the Holy Spirit praying back to God. That is what is NOT Biblical as per John 16:13 & Romans 8:26-27 in KJV.

They seek this tongue by seeking to receive the Holy Spirit again or for the first time, thinking it is separate from salvation when it is not: Romans 8:9 They ignore the warning about receiving Him again as that is preaching another gospel ( 2 Corinthians 11:1-4 ) as tongues will not serve as a sign for believers in receiving the Holy Spirit again or for the very first time ( 1 Corinthians 14:20-22 ) No one in Acts has been prepped to receive the Holy Spirit at their salvation by a sign of tongues.

That is hardly receiving the promise of the Spirit by faith in Jesus Christ at the hearing of the gospel.

Preaching to receive the promise of the Spirit by evidence of tongues is not the gospel of our Lord & Savior Jesus Christ.

 

[88]

I have no "beef" with NonPentecostal/Charismatic believers-----I encourage tongues from experience---- love---- edification---- those out there knowing this blessing---- I encourage you to stir up the gifts God has given you...

 

[88]

Let's be clear on what we are talking about;

I was talking about how those who seek tongues which never comes with interpretation but is just used as a prayer language of the Holy Spirit praying back to God. That is what is NOT Biblical as per John 16:13 & Romans 8:26-27 in KJV.

They seek this tongue by seeking to receive the Holy Spirit again or for the first time, thinking it is separate from salvation when it is not: Romans 8:9 They ignore the warning about receiving Him again as that is preaching another gospel ( 2 Corinthians 11:1-4 ) as tongues will not serve as a sign for believers in receiving the Holy Spirit again or for the very first time ( 1 Corinthians 14:20-22 ) No one in Acts has been prepped to receive the Holy Spirit at their salvation by a sign of tongues.

That is hardly receiving the promise of the Spirit by faith in Jesus Christ at the hearing of the gospel.

Preaching to receive the promise of the Spirit by evidence of tongues is not the gospel of our Lord & Savior Jesus Christ.

**** there are currently 500 million people speaking in tongues---- Assembly of God ---- Foursquare---- Church if God---- ect.---- many reputable groups promoting this blessing----- I encourage all to receive----- after being saved it was the most profound life changing experience----- Professor Jack Deere---- Dallas Theological Seminary fought against tongues for years---- was blessed by the Holy Spirit--- speaking in wonderful tongues...

 

[wolfwint]

**** there are currently 500 million people speaking in tongues---- Assembly of God ---- Foursquare---- Church if God---- ect.---- many reputable groups promoting this blessing----- I encourage all to receive----- after being saved it was the most profound life changing experience----- Professor Jack Deere---- Dallas Theological Seminary fought against tongues for years---- was blessed by the Holy Spirit--- speaking in wonderful tongues...

If you read the Bible you may note, that the mass of people, was never the measure about something right ore wrong.
If i think that they all claiming to have an special equipment through the Holy Spirit, but are denying f.e.that Jesus is God ore ignoring Scripture, then i ask how this can be.

 

[Enow]

**** there are currently 500 million people speaking in tongues---- Assembly of God ---- Foursquare---- Church if God---- ect.---- many reputable groups promoting this blessing----- I encourage all to receive----- after being saved it was the most profound life changing experience----- Professor Jack Deere---- Dallas Theological Seminary fought against tongues for years---- was blessed by the Holy Spirit--- speaking in wonderful tongues...

Matthew 7:[SUP]13 [/SUP]Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:[SUP]14 [/SUP]Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.[SUP]15 [/SUP]Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.[SUP]16 [/SUP]Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?............

Is it ecumenical in nature as gathering grapes of thorns and figs of thistles? Is it not disturbing that Charismatic Catholics have never been corrected of the works of catholicism in all that time? So numbers do not cut it, brother.

Matthew 7:[SUP]21 [/SUP]Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.[SUP]22 [/SUP]Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?[SUP]23 [/SUP]And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Look at what these wayward believers are claiming above. So Jesus points out another result of this iniquity; is believers will fall down in these movements of the spirit for going around the Son in coming to God the Father by. John 14:6 & John 10:1

Matthew 7:[SUP]24 [/SUP]Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:[SUP]25 [/SUP]And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.[SUP]26 [/SUP]And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:[SUP]27 [/SUP]And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.

The solution is to narrow your focus back to the straight gate; the Son, the Lord Jesus Christ.

Or else.

Luke 13:[SUP]24 [/SUP]Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.[SUP]25 [/SUP]When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are:[SUP]26 [/SUP]Then shall ye begin to say, We have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets.[SUP]27 [/SUP]But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity.[SUP]28 [/SUP]There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out.[SUP]29 [/SUP]And they shall come from the east, and from the west, and from the north, and from the south, and shall sit down in the kingdom of God.[SUP]30 [/SUP]And, behold, there are last which shall be first, and there are first which shall be last.

So pray to Jesus for help to shun vain & profane babbling and pray normally to give the Father thanks in Jesus's name and lean on Jesus Christ to return to your first love by chasing no more after seducing spirits so that your testimony that you are filled and ready to go when the Bridegroom comes is seen by all of your faith in Jesus Christ.

 

[presidente]

Let's be clear on what we are talking about;

I was talking about how those who seek tongues which never comes with interpretation but is just used as a prayer language

First of all, that's not accurate, since some people's tongues are interpreted, since some people do function in the gift of interpretation. Paul allows for prayer in tongues in I Corinthians 14. Look at verse 28 for example, 'Let him speak to himself and to God.' Also, prayer in tongues may include 'giving thanks well.' Paul spoke in tongues 'more than ye all, yet in the church...'. In the church, tongues should be interpreted so that others may be edified, or otherwise teaching, or some other discourse given 'with the understanding' is better, since others can be edified through it.

of the Holy Spirit praying back to God. That is what is NOT Biblical as per John 16:13 & Romans 8:26-27 in KJV.

And again, the arguing you are trying to make from those verses don't make sense because the Spirit says what He gets from Christ, and that does not exclude prayer. The Spirit is involved in prayer, which we know since Jude said to pray in the Holy Ghost. Romans 8 does not teach that the Spirit is only capabale of unutterable prayer. We just see there that that is one type of prayer with which the Spirit can help us. The passages are not saying what you are trying to get them to say.

I Corinthians 14 already establishes that prayer can be made in tongues, so the interpretation you are trying to eisegete into John 16 and Romans 8 contradicts I Corinthians.

They seek this tongue by seeking to receive the Holy Spirit again or for the first time, thinking it is separate from salvation when it is not: Romans 8:9

Again, the Samaritans 'received' the Spirit after hearing the Gospel and being baptized. The Spirit fell on the 12 men in Ephesus after they had been baptized in the name of Jesus.

They ignore the warning about receiving Him again as that is preaching another gospel ( 2 Corinthians 11:1-4 )

Either you exhibit bad logic while reading the passage or your judgmental attitude clouds your interpretation or both. Asking for more of the same Spirit by which you are sealed is allowed. Being filled with the same Spirit is not the same as receiving a different spirit. We know the Father won't give us bad things if we ask for the Holy Ghost based on the words of Jesus. Ephesians says to be filled with the Spirit, and praying in accordance with the revealed will of God is allowed.

 

[88]

Have a witness that there are a few people out there who would receive help from just praying 30 minutes a day in tongues... I have 40 years of testimonies from my life and others about this. I know Paul used tongues more than anyone in his day and his life was fruitful.

***if you speak in Tongues---I encourage you to pray in tongues more...

 

[88]

Have a witness that there are a few people out there who would receive help from just praying 30 minutes a day in tongues... I have 40 years of testimonies from my life and others about this. I know Paul used tongues more than anyone in his day and his life was fruitful.

***if you don't pray in tongues and are offended by this (ignore it) if you want to receive tongues (Holy Spirit --upon) (I know you have the Spirit in you) then ask for it you can receive from God---I prayed with 2 soldiers 40 years ago who wanted to speak in tongues and be blessed in the Spirit--they prayed with me and nothing happened---I told them go back to your barracks and thank God for it (because we already asked) they came back the next day with the Holy Spirit upon them and tongues...

 

[wolfwint]

***if you don't pray in tongues and are offended by this (ignore it) if you want to receive tongues (Holy Spirit --upon) (I know you have the Spirit in you) then ask for it you can receive from God---I prayed with 2 soldiers 40 years ago who wanted to speak in tongues and be blessed in the Spirit--they prayed with me and nothing happened---I told them go back to your barracks and thank God for it (because we already asked) they came back the next day with the Holy Spirit upon them and tongues...

You teaching a doctrine which is not true! If you want to please Jesus, than obey his word. Speaking in tongues is one of the smallest gift, according Paul it is better to prophecies than speaking in tongues. The some of the people you mentioned as to follow are false teachers. So why you promote this speaking in tongues? You are,shire that the right spirit is behind?