actually many have already in the " Tongues" thread. the information of what one calls "Pentecostalism movement" goes far more back then a one eyed black man named " [FONT=Roboto, arial, sans-serif]William J. Seymour". The Book of Acts is the birth of the Church. and down through History the records of many super natural moves of God are well recorded and documented. [/FONT]
The Original Pentecostal Movement
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Things Acts 2 does not say:
Acts 2 does not say that the disciples 'preached the Gospel' in tongues.
Acts 2 does not say that because of speaking in tongues, the disciples could now go to the jungles of Africa and either preacher or ask directions and buy bread without a translator.
After the speaking in tongues, Peter stood up and preached the Gospel, apparently in some language the people in the crowd understood.
Prior to Azusa Street, there were some people who believed speaking in tongues was an evangelism gift. I think Parham may have thought that. One of the preachers who visited there, Garr, I believe it was, spoke in tongues and an Indian recognized it as Bengali. When he went to India, he thought he might be able to speak and preach in the tongue of whatever people he went to. This was not the case. But he was at peace with that. The Bible does not teach that anyone who is able to speak in tongues by the power of the Holy Spirit will be able to choose the language he speaks in.
In I Corinthians, Paul says of the one who speaks in tongues 'no man understandeth him.' So they weren't speaking in languages the crowd understood. What was spoken in tongues was to be translated if it was to edify the body, and Paul made his arguments in the passage explaining the need for interpretation before giving instructions regarding how speaking in tongues was to be done in the proper order in verses 27 through 28.
It is interesting how many people will assume things about speaking in tongues that aren't in the Bible, and keep insisting on reading these ideas into passages like I Corinthians 14, even when you point out how their ideas actually contradict what is written in there.
Acts 2 does not say that the disciples 'preached the Gospel' in tongues.
Acts 2 does not say that because of speaking in tongues, the disciples could now go to the jungles of Africa and either preacher or ask directions and buy bread without a translator.
After the speaking in tongues, Peter stood up and preached the Gospel, apparently in some language the people in the crowd understood.
Prior to Azusa Street, there were some people who believed speaking in tongues was an evangelism gift. I think Parham may have thought that. One of the preachers who visited there, Garr, I believe it was, spoke in tongues and an Indian recognized it as Bengali. When he went to India, he thought he might be able to speak and preach in the tongue of whatever people he went to. This was not the case. But he was at peace with that. The Bible does not teach that anyone who is able to speak in tongues by the power of the Holy Spirit will be able to choose the language he speaks in.
In I Corinthians, Paul says of the one who speaks in tongues 'no man understandeth him.' So they weren't speaking in languages the crowd understood. What was spoken in tongues was to be translated if it was to edify the body, and Paul made his arguments in the passage explaining the need for interpretation before giving instructions regarding how speaking in tongues was to be done in the proper order in verses 27 through 28.
It is interesting how many people will assume things about speaking in tongues that aren't in the Bible, and keep insisting on reading these ideas into passages like I Corinthians 14, even when you point out how their ideas actually contradict what is written in there.
Why would you assume the Lord Jesus has nothing to say about prayer? Your premises do not support your conclusion. Paul wrote that he who speaks in a tongue speaks not to met but to God. He said if there be no interpreter, let him speak to himself and to God. How can you say there is no prayer in tongues in the passage?
Paul wrote in I Corinthians that if he prays in a tongue, his spirit pray. You contradict the passage. Paul says if you bless with the Spirit, you give thanks well. Again, more evidence. You contradict the passage.
Why do you assume that Jesus doesn't have anything to say about prayer? Do you think Jesus doesn't pray? Don't you interpret Romans 8:26-27 to be about Jesus interceding about the will of God? Then how can you think the Spirit cannot pray? If Christ prays, and the Spirit takes of what is Christ's and reveals it, how can you think the Spirit cannot pray?
Paul wrote in I Corinthians that if he prays in a tongue, his spirit pray. You contradict the passage. Paul says if you bless with the Spirit, you give thanks well. Again, more evidence. You contradict the passage.
Why do you assume that Jesus doesn't have anything to say about prayer? Do you think Jesus doesn't pray? Don't you interpret Romans 8:26-27 to be about Jesus interceding about the will of God? Then how can you think the Spirit cannot pray? If Christ prays, and the Spirit takes of what is Christ's and reveals it, how can you think the Spirit cannot pray?
nor does 1cor chapter 12,13,14,
Acts 2 says [FONT=Helvetica Neue, Verdana, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to [/FONT]speak with other tongues,[FONT=Helvetica Neue, Verdana, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif] as the Spirit gave them utterance. the word in The Greek for "tongues"= Languages. The word "other" in the Greek is synonymous with Unknown or unlearned by natural origin.
your point of the Azusa street revival I would as you to provide your source because my studies and do not show that. where did you get your information from ? [/FONT]
Acts 2 says [FONT=Helvetica Neue, Verdana, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to [/FONT]speak with other tongues,[FONT=Helvetica Neue, Verdana, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif] as the Spirit gave them utterance. the word in The Greek for "tongues"= Languages. The word "other" in the Greek is synonymous with Unknown or unlearned by natural origin.
your point of the Azusa street revival I would as you to provide your source because my studies and do not show that. where did you get your information from ? [/FONT]
There are some who feel that tongues are exclusively the prophetic utterances that were presented in Acts 2, and in doing so they deny 'prayer language' tongues. To help show that Paul preached and differentiated the two as separate things, here is 1 Corinthians 14 presented to show the differential presentation between prophecy and 'prayer language'.
Prophecy is presented in red Prayer language is presented in blue
1 Follow the way of love and eagerly desire gifts of the Spirit, especially prophecy. 2For anyone who speaks in a tongue does not speak to people but to God. Indeed, no one understands them; they utter mysteries by theSpirit. 3But the one who prophesies speaks to people for their strengthening, encouraging and comfort. 4Anyone who speaks in a tongue edifies themselves, but the one who prophesies edifies the church. 5I would like every one of you to speak in tongues, but I would rather have you prophesy. The one who prophesies is greater than the one who speaks in tongues, unless someone interprets, so that the church may be edified.
6Now, brothers and sisters, if I come to you and speak in tongues, what good will I be to you, unless I bring you some revelation or knowledge or prophecy or word of instruction? 7 Even in the case of lifeless things that make sounds, such as the pipe or harp, how will anyone know what tune is being played unless there is a distinction in the notes? 8Again, if the trumpet does not sound a clear call, who will get ready for battle? 9 So it is with you. Unless you speak intelligible words with your tongue, how will anyone know what you are saying? You will just be speaking into the air. 10Undoubtedly there are all sorts of languages in the world, yet none of them is without meaning. 11 If then I do not grasp the meaning of what someone is saying, I am a foreigner to the speaker, and the speaker is a foreigner to me. 12 So it is with you. Since you are eager for gifts of the Spirit, try to excel in those that build up the church.
13 For this reason the one who speaks in a tongue should pray that they may interpret what they say. 14For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my mind is unfruitful. 15So what shall I do? I will pray with my spirit, butI will also pray with my understanding; I will sing with my spirit, but I will also sing with my understanding. 16 Otherwise when you are praising God in the Spirit, how can someone else, who is now put in the position of an inquirer, say “Amen” to your thanksgiving, since they do not know what you are saying? 17 You are giving thanks well enough, but no one else is edified.
18 I thank God that I speak in tongues more than all of you. 19But in the church I would rather speak five intelligible words to instruct others than ten thousand words in a tongue.
20 Brothers and sisters, stop thinking like children. In regard to evil be infants, but in your thinking be adults. 21 In the Law it is written: “With other tongues and through the lips of foreigners I will speak to this people, but even then they will not listen to me, says the Lord.”
22Tongues, then, are a sign, not for believers but for unbelievers; prophecy,however, is not for unbelievers but for believers. 23 So if the whole church comes together and everyone speaks in tongues, and inquirers or unbelievers come in, will they not say that you are out of your mind? 24 But if an unbeliever or an inquirer comes in while everyone is prophesying, they are convicted of sin and are brought under judgment by all, 25 as the secrets of their hearts are laid bare. So they will fall down and worship God, exclaiming, “God is really among you!”
26 What then shall we say, brothers and sisters? When you come together, each of you has a hymn, or a word of instruction, a revelation, a tongue or an interpretation. Everything must be done so that the church may be built up.27If anyone speaks in a tongue, two—or at the most three—should speak, one at a time, and someone must interpret. 28 If thereis no interpreter, the speaker should keep quiet in the church and speak to himself and to God.
29Two or three prophets should speak, and the others should weigh carefully what is said. 30And if arevelation comes to someone who is sitting down, the first speaker should stop. 31For you can all prophesy in turn so that everyone may be instructed and encouraged. 32The spirits of prophets are subject to the control of prophets. 33 For God is not a God of disorder but of peace—as in all the congregations of the Lord’s people.
34 Women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the law says. 35 If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church.
36 Or did the word of God originate with you? Or are you the only people it has reached? 37 If anyone thinks they are a prophet or otherwise gifted by the Spirit, let them acknowledge that what I am writing to you is the Lord’s command. 38 But if anyone ignores this, they will themselves be ignored.
39 Therefore, my brothers and sisters, be eager to prophesy, and do not forbid speaking in tongues. 40 But everything should be done in a fitting and orderly way.
*
Prophecy is presented in red Prayer language is presented in blue
1 Follow the way of love and eagerly desire gifts of the Spirit, especially prophecy. 2For anyone who speaks in a tongue does not speak to people but to God. Indeed, no one understands them; they utter mysteries by theSpirit. 3But the one who prophesies speaks to people for their strengthening, encouraging and comfort. 4Anyone who speaks in a tongue edifies themselves, but the one who prophesies edifies the church. 5I would like every one of you to speak in tongues, but I would rather have you prophesy. The one who prophesies is greater than the one who speaks in tongues, unless someone interprets, so that the church may be edified.
6Now, brothers and sisters, if I come to you and speak in tongues, what good will I be to you, unless I bring you some revelation or knowledge or prophecy or word of instruction? 7 Even in the case of lifeless things that make sounds, such as the pipe or harp, how will anyone know what tune is being played unless there is a distinction in the notes? 8Again, if the trumpet does not sound a clear call, who will get ready for battle? 9 So it is with you. Unless you speak intelligible words with your tongue, how will anyone know what you are saying? You will just be speaking into the air. 10Undoubtedly there are all sorts of languages in the world, yet none of them is without meaning. 11 If then I do not grasp the meaning of what someone is saying, I am a foreigner to the speaker, and the speaker is a foreigner to me. 12 So it is with you. Since you are eager for gifts of the Spirit, try to excel in those that build up the church.
13 For this reason the one who speaks in a tongue should pray that they may interpret what they say. 14For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my mind is unfruitful. 15So what shall I do? I will pray with my spirit, butI will also pray with my understanding; I will sing with my spirit, but I will also sing with my understanding. 16 Otherwise when you are praising God in the Spirit, how can someone else, who is now put in the position of an inquirer, say “Amen” to your thanksgiving, since they do not know what you are saying? 17 You are giving thanks well enough, but no one else is edified.
18 I thank God that I speak in tongues more than all of you. 19But in the church I would rather speak five intelligible words to instruct others than ten thousand words in a tongue.
20 Brothers and sisters, stop thinking like children. In regard to evil be infants, but in your thinking be adults. 21 In the Law it is written: “With other tongues and through the lips of foreigners I will speak to this people, but even then they will not listen to me, says the Lord.”
22Tongues, then, are a sign, not for believers but for unbelievers; prophecy,however, is not for unbelievers but for believers. 23 So if the whole church comes together and everyone speaks in tongues, and inquirers or unbelievers come in, will they not say that you are out of your mind? 24 But if an unbeliever or an inquirer comes in while everyone is prophesying, they are convicted of sin and are brought under judgment by all, 25 as the secrets of their hearts are laid bare. So they will fall down and worship God, exclaiming, “God is really among you!”
26 What then shall we say, brothers and sisters? When you come together, each of you has a hymn, or a word of instruction, a revelation, a tongue or an interpretation. Everything must be done so that the church may be built up.27If anyone speaks in a tongue, two—or at the most three—should speak, one at a time, and someone must interpret. 28 If thereis no interpreter, the speaker should keep quiet in the church and speak to himself and to God.
29Two or three prophets should speak, and the others should weigh carefully what is said. 30And if arevelation comes to someone who is sitting down, the first speaker should stop. 31For you can all prophesy in turn so that everyone may be instructed and encouraged. 32The spirits of prophets are subject to the control of prophets. 33 For God is not a God of disorder but of peace—as in all the congregations of the Lord’s people.
34 Women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the law says. 35 If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church.
36 Or did the word of God originate with you? Or are you the only people it has reached? 37 If anyone thinks they are a prophet or otherwise gifted by the Spirit, let them acknowledge that what I am writing to you is the Lord’s command. 38 But if anyone ignores this, they will themselves be ignored.
39 Therefore, my brothers and sisters, be eager to prophesy, and do not forbid speaking in tongues. 40 But everything should be done in a fitting and orderly way.
*
I can't see how that the word "other" in Greek could be synonymous with 'Unknown or unlearned by natural origin'.
Other than that, this is a straw man argument. The word translated 'tongues' can also be translated 'languages' in this context. That point was not under dispute by early Pentecostals
A Missionary Crisis on Speaking in Tongues - Charles A. Sullivan
Val Dez's 'Fire on Azusa' tells of someone understanding Russian at the Azusa Street revival. 'The Comforter has come' mentions another language. There is an interview on YouTube from the early 70's when a couple of elderly folks who were children at the Azusa Street Revival. I believe the interviewer may be Vincent Synan. One of the interviewees said that one of the things that drew people to the revival was speaking in tongues in foreign languages. She mentioned Japanese as an example.
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Tongues are an interpretation as a revelation from God. It’s not man speaking in an unknown language unknown to his own self..
1Co 14:27 If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret. But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God.
An example. Two or three is used as law to indicate that they are in agreement... all speak German . If God does not supernatural interpret it into a language know by the hearer they should keep their thoughts to his own self.
Notice it does not say if one speaks in an unknown language. Two or three is the witness needed to believe it comes from God.
Deuteronomy 17:6 At the mouth of two witnesses, or three witnesses, shall he that is worthy of death be put to death; but at the mouth of one witness he shall not be put to death.
Deuteronomy 19:15 One witness shall not rise up against a man for any iniquity, or for any sin, in any sin that he sinneth: at the mouth of two witnesses, or at the mouth of three witnesses, shall the matter be established.
Matthew 18:16 But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.
Matthew 18:20 For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.
Tongues is sign to those who believe not because they cannot understand the natural language of the speaker (no interpretation by the Holy Spirit) .
Prophecy for those given the understanding of another language, as God supernaturally interprets into their language, is for those who are given the faith of Christ to believe God.
Seeking after signs as that seen rather than walking by faith (unseen)I believe only shows a person has no confidence that they have the Holy Spirit so they work to make sounds and then believe they have the Holy Spirit. (self-edification.)
1Co 14:27 If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret. But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God.
An example. Two or three is used as law to indicate that they are in agreement... all speak German . If God does not supernatural interpret it into a language know by the hearer they should keep their thoughts to his own self.
Notice it does not say if one speaks in an unknown language. Two or three is the witness needed to believe it comes from God.
Deuteronomy 17:6 At the mouth of two witnesses, or three witnesses, shall he that is worthy of death be put to death; but at the mouth of one witness he shall not be put to death.
Deuteronomy 19:15 One witness shall not rise up against a man for any iniquity, or for any sin, in any sin that he sinneth: at the mouth of two witnesses, or at the mouth of three witnesses, shall the matter be established.
Matthew 18:16 But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.
Matthew 18:20 For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.
Tongues is sign to those who believe not because they cannot understand the natural language of the speaker (no interpretation by the Holy Spirit) .
Prophecy for those given the understanding of another language, as God supernaturally interprets into their language, is for those who are given the faith of Christ to believe God.
Seeking after signs as that seen rather than walking by faith (unseen)I believe only shows a person has no confidence that they have the Holy Spirit so they work to make sounds and then believe they have the Holy Spirit. (self-edification.)