The Original Pentecostal Movement

[Stephen63]

Notice it does not say if one speaks in an unknown language. Two or three is the witness needed to believe it comes from God.

Actually 2 or 3 is the limit of how many can speak in the service.

1Co 14:27 If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret. But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God.

 

[samuel23]

Problem is that you have the Pentecostal version and the non Pentecostal version of what happened at Azusa Street. The Pentecostal version will tell you that Seymour was leading a great outpouring of the Spirit with signs and wonders. The non Pentecostal version will tell you the truth, that Seymour was perplexed himself by what was happening and sent for his mentor and teacher Parham. When Parham arrived and saw what was going on he was shocked and called it the last vomit of Satan. Parham was the father of the Pentecostal movement, he wanted there to be a great outpouring of the Holy Spirit, however what he found was the last vomit of Satan...that is the real story of the origin of Pentecostalism at Azusa Street. Pentecostals will never accept such truth because they are having too much fun doing their thing.

 

[garee]

Actually 2 or 3 is the limit of how many can speak in the service.

1Co 14:27 If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret. But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God.

If any man(singular) let it be by two or three (the witness God is present) Three is the most needed.Three is a metphor used to represent the end of the matter in the scriptures. If God does not interpret into another language .They should all be silent. Obviously God is not doing the supernatural work of interpreting in that case.

 

[popeye]

Tongues are an interpretation as a revelation from God. It’s not man speaking in an unknown language unknown to his own self..

1Co 14:27 If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret. But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God.

An example. Two or three is used as law to indicate that they are in agreement... all speak German . If God does not supernatural interpret it into a language know by the hearer they should keep their thoughts to his own self.

Notice it does not say if one speaks in an unknown language. Two or three is the witness needed to believe it comes from God.

Deuteronomy 17:6 At the mouth of two witnesses, or three witnesses, shall he that is worthy of death be put to death; but at the mouth of one witness he shall not be put to death.


Deuteronomy 19:15 One witness shall not rise up against a man for any iniquity, or for any sin, in any sin that he sinneth: at the mouth of two witnesses, or at the mouth of three witnesses, shall the matter be established.

Matthew 18:16 But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.


Matthew 18:20 For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.

Tongues is sign to those who believe not because they cannot understand the natural language of the speaker (no interpretation by the Holy Spirit) .

Prophecy for those given the understanding of another language, as God supernaturally interprets into their language, is for those who are given the faith of Christ to believe God.

Seeking after signs as that seen rather than walking by faith (unseen)I believe only shows a person has no confidence that they have the Holy Spirit so they work to make sounds and then believe they have the Holy Spirit. (self-edification.)

You are a mental oriented believer.

That is why when it says " the spirit prays,but the mind is unfruitful" you have no clue,because you have no experience to fall back on. Any of us that have received the baptism of the Holy Spirit know what that is talking about.

The same with revelation where John says " I was in the spirit on the Lords day"

You are one dimensional because you have never sought anything higher.

No hunger. No gifting

 

[Stephen63]

Problem is that you have the Pentecostal version and the non Pentecostal version of what happened at Azusa Street. The Pentecostal version will tell you that Seymour was leading a great outpouring of the Spirit with signs and wonders. The non Pentecostal version will tell you the truth, that Seymour was perplexed himself by what was happening and sent for his mentor and teacher Parham. When Parham arrived and saw what was going on he was shocked and called it the last vomit of Satan. Parham was the father of the Pentecostal movement, he wanted there to be a great outpouring of the Holy Spirit, however what he found was the last vomit of Satan...that is the real story of the origin of Pentecostalism at Azusa Street. Pentecostals will never accept such truth because they are having too much fun doing their thing.

First, you say that not all Pentecostals are bad, and now you say the core of the movement was rotten.

What's your real angle here on CC, samuel23?

 

[presidente]

When Parham arrived and saw what was going on he was shocked and called it the last vomit of Satan.

It is hard to prove that something did not happen. But I am pretty certain this is false. If I were a gambler, I'd bet money that you couldn't provide a reliable source for this. There was an opponent of Pentecostalism, not Parham, who made that allegation. Parham objected to a black man being kind of touchy feely with a white woman around the altar. One of his relatives later said that a group of holy rollers let out of their meeting and then went over that night to Azusa Street, the night Parham commented on the enthusiasm of the meeting.

 

[presidente]

Then it is interisting that before the azusa people came to Germany nobody spoke in tongues. Does this means we had no spirit filled Christians in Germany?

I do not believe that is true. I can't remember the names, but I remember a movement where there was speaking in tongues in Germany, I think among Pietists. I can't remember if it was early 1800's or perhaps earlier.

 

[presidente]

Notice it does not say if one speaks in an unknown language.

Yes it does. Look up 'tis' in Greek.

 

[notuptome]

I do not believe that is true. I can't remember the names, but I remember a movement where there was speaking in tongues in Germany, I think among Pietists. I can't remember if it was early 1800's or perhaps earlier.

Early Pentecostals were holiness types sort of like the Quakers. Lots of corruption since those days.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[Ariel82]

In 1960, in Van Nuys, California, the modern Charismatic movement began in an Episcopalian Church (St. Mark's, with Dennis Bennett as rector). There was an outburst of tongues speaking in this church. This event was so significant that both Time and Newsweek covered the story. After that, the movement spread like wildfire in the Episcopalian Church and then among Lutherans and Presbyterians as well.

The movement soon entered the universities. This began in New England. In October of 1962, the glossolalia phenomenon broke out at Yale University, among members of the Evangelical Inter-Varsity Christian Fellowship. Included in this new-Pentecostal revival were Episcopalians, Lutherans, Presbyterians, Methodists, and even one Roman Catholic. Five were members of Phi Beta Kappa, and some were religious leaders on campus (they were soon called "GLOSSO YALIES").

Thereafter, the movement spread to Dartmouth College, Stanford University, and Princeton Theological Seminary.

Even more significant than these events is what happened in 1967. All roads lead to Rome. At the time of Spring vacation in 1967, there were in the Notre Dame area about 30 zealous Catholics who had received the "baptism of the Holy Spirit." In 1968, about 100 to 150 met for a Catholic Pentecostal conference. In 1969, there were about 450 Catholic Charismatics who met including about 25 or 30 priests. In 1970, the increase was more spectacular. Almost 1,300 attended the conference, including Catholics from Canada. In 1973, 22,000 Catholic Charismatics met together at Notre Dame, including Catholic participants from at least 10 foreign countries. In 1974, the Notre Dame conference was attended by 30,000 people. And finally, the 1975 international conference held in Rome attracted 10,000 pilgrims from 50 countries to hear Pope Paul VI express his warm appreciation for the movement. The movement was mushrooming not only in the Roman Catholic Church, but in all of the major Protestant denominations.

The Kansas City Charismatic Conference was held in the summer of 1977. All three wings of the Pentecostal movement were present: (1) Old Pentecostals (sometimes called "classical Pentecostals"); (2) Protestant Charismatics; and (3) Catholic Charismatics. This was the biggest and most inclusive gathering of "baptized in the Spirit believers" in modern history. There were nearly 50,000 participants in this 5-day conference. One speaker proudly hailed this conference as "the largest and most inclusive ecumenical assembly in the history of American Christianity." Almost half of the participants were Roman Catholics.

A newspaper article published in 1977 (AP), reported that there were 10 million charismatics in America (5 million Classical Pentecostals and 5 Million New Pentecostals). Thus, the new charismatic movement grew to 5 million in only 17 years (1960 to 1977)! Today, the movement is still very much alive and growing, although we probably will not see the same kind of mushrooming growth as we saw in the '60s and early '70s. The 1/7/83 Christianity Today reported that the Assembly of God denomination (Pentecostal) is the fastest growing American denomination. At that time there were 1.6 million Assembly of God adherents and the number was growing fast.

The New Charismatics are not separatist but rather reformist in character. They are not interested in separating from old ecclesiastical structures. Rather, they are told to stay in these churches and to renew them by their continued presence within. This is what is meant by Charismatic Renewal.

A Brief History of Pentecostalism


GLOSSO YALIES
i did not know this before either.

anyway.....carrying on with history - attempting to find or develop an acceptable Timeline - with anyone from the movement willing to contribute to correcting what they might consider errors...so the basic historical framework is understood.

...


Four Groups Addressing Spiritual Gifts Today

Today’s discussions and positions on spiritual gifts fall into one of four
general positions. A brief survey of positions underlines the breadth of thought and
conviction about the gifts and the need for biblical clarity.

Classic Pentecostalism – The historic beginning of the modern tongues
movement is traced to Bethel Bible School of Topeka, Kansas, founded in 1900
by Charles Parham (1873-1929). Parham encouraged his students to examine
the apostolic age for a witness of the baptism of the Holy Spirit available today
as an event subsequent to salvation. One of his students, Miss Agnes Ozman,
requested that hands be laid on her to receive the Holy Spirit, and according to
Parham, she responded by speaking only in the Chinese language, unable to
speak her native English for the next three days. Parham considered this the
restoration of the Pentecostal power of the Book of Acts.12 Nichol points out that
the significance of the Topeka event was that “for the first time the concept of
being baptized (or filled) with the Holy Spirit was linked to an outward
sign—speaking in tongues.”13 Parham began an evangelistic effort in various
cities which he identified as “Pentecostal” or the “Full Gospel,” reaching as high
as 25,000 Pentecostal converts in Texas alone by 1905.14 William Seymour
(1870-1922) came in contact with Parham’s preaching in Houston and then was
called to Los Angeles, where he lead the renowned Azusa Street Revival (1906-
1909). Based at the Azusa Street Mission (312 Azusa Street), Seymour spoke in
tongues for the first time on April 9, 1906. Seymour’s activities associated with
the Azusa Street Revival launched American Pentecostalism, and Azusa Street
became a “veritable Pentecostal Mecca to which pilgrims from all over the world
came and from which the news of supernatural signs and wonders was broadcast.
”15 Representatives of this position include The Assemblies of God, The
Church of God in Christ, and Aimee Semple McPherson’s (1890-1944)
International Church of the Foursquare Gospel.16

http://www.tms.edu/tmsj/tmsj14f.pdf

END summary Classic Pentecostalism history.

any errors?

no (waiting for Kerry to actually respond with something) hi Kerry....



The Charismatic Movement – or Neo-Pentecostalism, began in the mid-1950s
largely through the efforts of the Full Gospel Business Men’s Fellowship
International of Los Angeles, and the efforts of Assemblies of God minister
David J. du Plessis (1905-1987),17 who promoted the Pentecostal experience to
the non-Pentecostal denominations. On August 3, 1960, Episcopal priest
Dennis Bennett (1917- ) of St Marks Church in Van Nuys, California, announced
in his pulpit that he had been baptized of the Holy Spirit and then went on to
speak in tongues. Bennett came under immediate criticism and resigned after the
third of three services the same day. The matter, however, was so widely
publicized that this event is often viewed as the founding the Charismatic
Movement, as it spread to every major denomination and cut across all
theological boundaries.18 Dunn observed that this new Pentecostalism “has now
become a movement of world-wide importance, reckoned as a third force in
Christendom (alongside Catholicism and Protestantism) by not a few leading
churchmen.”19

In the movement, there was less concern for the nature of the new
birth and great stress was placed on Spirit baptism and tongues.20 In the quest
for expanded research and doctrinal respectability, the Society for Pentecostal
Studies was formed in 1970. Important aspects include, Trinity Broadcasting
Network, begun by Paul Crouch in 1973, The International Catholic Charismatic
Conference in Rome, 1975, and the rise after 1980 of prominent televangelists,
including Oral Roberts and son Richard, Kenneth Hagin, Pat Robertson, Rex
Humbard, Jimmy Swaggart, Kenneth Copeland, Jim Bakker, and Benny Hinn
(Miracle Crusades).21

http://www.tms.edu/tmsj/tmsj14f.pdf

any errors so far....

Thanks for the history lesson, Done.


Why do I always wander into battle zones in this forum?

Some days I just want to make a bunker thread and just play worship music and hide in it.

This is an old thread,,,still haven't found the post bringing it back.

I really dislike the doctrine that has people thinking they aren't saved because they don't speak in tongues. Makes me mad When I meet people fed that lie.

 

[Ariel82]

If there is no interperter in public for someone speaking in tongues they should listen to the Bible:

28 If thereis no interpreter, the speaker should keep quiet in the church and speak to himself and to God.

 

[samuel23]

It is a mix, you have people who are really saved because of faith in Christ. Then you have these same folks following Pentecostal dogma that is unscriptural. My angle is to warn those Christians in the Pentecostal movement that the core beliefs that actually define Pentecostalism are mostly unscriptural. I say mostly because a belief in the gifts of the Spirit is not a false teaching, however women in authority over men, two baptisms of the Spirit, walking around filled with the Spirit because of a single experience, and mostly, accepting extra biblical manifestations as if they were of God.

 

[Stephen63]

Folks can talk about the Pentecostal Movement all they want, but it doesn't change a thing.

They can mock, slam it, & call it a work of Satan if they want to, it's their decision.

I'm not gonna argue about it..... not worth it.

But I will say this..... every person who mocks, says it's of Satan, & claims it's an evil spirit has blasphemed the Holy Spirit.

It's your choice..... I can't stop you.

I just wonder what's God gonna do about it?

 

[Ariel82]

Pentecostalism, like its precursor, the Holiness movement (based on the belief that a second work of grace following conversion would “sanctify” Christians and remove the desire to sin),

https://www.britannica.com/topic/Pentecostalism

The Rise of Pentecostalism: Christian History Timeline | Christian History

The Early Days of the Pentecostal Movement | CBN.com

Currently researching the pentecostal movement...

 

[samuel23]

To claim that the Holy Spirit is causing people to bark like dogs and howls like wolves and crazy stuff that cannot be found in the NT is to insult the Holy Spirit. I can tell you what God is gonna do about it, God is raising up people like me who have seen all this stuff and know that it is violation of God's word and we are telling people so. You know it is of the Spirit but you cannot verify it by the NT...that would mean that you have the problem.

 

[Ariel82]

Even before McAlister’s teaching, the issue of Holiness divided members of the new faith. Parham, Seymour, and other early Pentecostals came from the Holiness tradition that taught Christians to seek “sanctification.” They built upon that heritage and taught that the baptism of the Holy Spirit was for people who had already experienced sanctification. On the other hand, Pentecostals from Baptist backgrounds disagreed and taught that the baptism of the Holy Spirit was for every believer. This doctrinal division drove Pentecostals into two warring camps.

https://www.britannica.com/topic/Pentecostalism

 

[presidente]

To claim that the Holy Spirit is causing people to bark like dogs and howls like wolves and crazy stuff that cannot be found in the NT is to insult the Holy Spirit. I can tell you what God is gonna do about it, God is raising up people like me who have seen all this stuff and know that it is violation of God's word and we are telling people so. You know it is of the Spirit but you cannot verify it by the NT...that would mean that you have the problem.

Barking like dogs was reported at the Cain Ridge, revival, I believe. That was way before the Azusa Street revival. I can't say I have even heard of barking like dogs in a Pentecostal or Charismatic church.

This is basically a straw man argument. You do realize that the overwhelmingly vast majority of Pentecostals and Charismatics do not teach people that barking like dogs or howling like wolves has anything to do with the Holy Spirit, and it sounds like a weird idea to them as well.

 

[dcontroversal]

Folks can talk about the Pentecostal Movement all they want, but it doesn't change a thing.

They can mock, slam it, & call it a work of Satan if they want to, it's their decision.

I'm not gonna argue about it..... not worth it.

But I will say this..... every person who mocks, says it's of Satan, & claims it's an evil spirit has blasphemed the Holy Spirit.

It's your choice..... I can't stop you.

I just wonder what's God gonna do about it?

Nothing at all!

 

[RickyZ]

I really dislike the doctrine that has people thinking they aren't saved because they don't speak in tongues. Makes me mad When I meet people fed that lie.

Amen.

And another amen makes 10!

 

[RickyZ]

every person who mocks (a genuine manifestation), says it's of Satan, & claims it's an evil spirit has blasphemed the Holy Spirit.

And that is what makes this subject above all such a dangerous and slippery slop.