If Rome was not the beast then who was/is the beast - no need to shuffle around with explanations about coins etc.
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If Rome was not the beast then who was/is the beast - no need to shuffle around with explanations about coins etc.
When you said coins looking at a particular beast you should have realized it received a deadly wound in ad70 and was in the pit in Rev.17:8 and that it ascended out of it and became a nation again.
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GaryA
Guest
If I should choose to spend the time to do it -- yes. ( for the most part, at least )
I will think about it...
In the meanwhile, please feel free to take a look at my 'study' pages - linked to in my signature.
This will give you some insight...
I grew up with Baptist dispensationalist teachings. However, after studying End Times prophecy ( personal Bible study ) extensively, I discovered much error in the dispensationalist view of End Times prophecy.
The more I have studied, the more I have discovered things "already past" ( i.e., 70 A.D. ); however, there are also still things future.
It is not all [ 70 A.D. ], and it is not all [ future ].
I might could be called a 'historicist'; it would probably be the most accurate popular "modern term" that could be applied...?
Rev 13:12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.
Rev 13:16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
Rev 13:17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.
"and became a nation again" - so which nation do you think it is?
This is basically the SDA position which wrongly identifies the whore of Babylon as the RC church.
Israel,not the Israel of God nor the city that descends down from heaven to earth but the one that isn’t suppose to be there the one the earth decided to place there.
Cryptic - so the nation that is currently occupying Palestine since 1948.
I wonder why I saw this coming.
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GaryA
Guest
Cryptic - so the nation that is currently occupying Palestine since 1948.
I wonder why I saw this coming.
Maybe it's something to do with not being able to account for it in your own theology that causes you to look at others.
I do. But even so, for me future events are a bit cloudy. I'm not sure if the world gets predominantly worse as where Christian persecution escalates or if world get predominantly more Christian. I'm currently leaning on the world being more and more Christianized before the second coming.
What causes you to think that the current nation of "Israel" has anything to do with prophecy?
What you are stating (I think) is that this current "nation of Israel" is the whore of Babylon of the book of Revelation - would I be correct?
You would need to read back over all the posts I've made in this topic/thread to understand that.
The Christian age that "never" ends does not make sense to me. 1st, if we continue on with all the physical laws in place, the sun will eventual burn out. 2nd, in 1 Corinthians 15 Paul states that when Christ comes again, He'll hand the kingdom back over to the Father (doesn't sound like Christ rules forever here).
Please explain to me what you think Paul in 1 Corinthians 15 means when he said, "[FONT="] [/FONT][FONT="][/FONT][FONT="]24 Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power.[/FONT]
When we die, we immediately go to spiritual heaven. I guess I would be a partial dispensationalist. I believe there are three ages, Adam to Noah, Noah to Christ, Christ until the end of the world. I do see an end to physical life on this planet as Paul taught in 1 Cor 15. Christ reigns spiritually until He has put an end to all His enemies.
Actually, four ages, I left out the final eternal state.
After seeing all of the evidence put forth by Locutus concerning Christ's return in AD 70 for vengeance and wrath but it being a spiritual return in the sense of how God used to "come" and execute judgment, I have to agree with Him on that point. There are many passages which support this notion and evidence from eyewitnesses in the day as stated by Josephus.
However, I am not there with the idea that 1 Thes 4:13-18 is the same return. I do not see a past resurrection as one is not recorded anywhere around 70 AD. The only past "resurrection" was when Christ arose and some arose with Him. Personally I think those who arose with Him later died again but we aren't told.
I have not found a judging of the nations Mat 25:31-46. I do not see a separation of wheat and tares associated with the harvest, Mat 13 and I certainly don't see a resurrection in the past. So, I guess I am a partial preterist amillennialist.
Lets not forget what Paul said in Romans 8 about the moaning of creation and the restoration of our physical bodies. Romans 8:
From Suffering to Glory
18 For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. 19 For the earnest expectation of the creation eagerly waits for the revealing of the sons of God. 20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope; 21 because the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation groans and labors with birth pangs together until now. 23 Not only that, but we also who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, eagerly waiting for the adoption, the redemption of our body. 24 For we were saved in this hope, but hope that is seen is not hope; for why does one still hope for what he sees? 25 But if we hope for what we do not see, we eagerly wait for it with perseverance.
Seems to me that Paul is expending an end to the state of physical corruption, to a state of un-corruption.
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I see 3 earthly dispensations, but I would say its from Adam to Moses (the beginning of Israel as a nation), Moses to Christ, Christ to the end of this age.
[h=3]The Parable of the Leaven[/h][FONT="]33 Another parable He spoke to them: “The kingdom of heaven is like leaven, which a woman took and hid in three measures[c] of meal till it was all leavened.”[/FONT]
Some good questions coming up guys, I'm enjoying the interactions - thanks.
It depends on how you view which rule and authority Christ puts to an end - I believe it only speaks of the religious authority of the Old Covenant nation which ended with the destruction of the nation in the 66-70 AD.
Acts 3:17 And now, brethren, I wot that through ignorance ye did it, as did also your rulers.
Also we need to take into account the power of the holy people in Daniel:
Dan 12:7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.
Delivering up the kingdom does not necessarily mean Christ's rule ends.
You can't have Christ's rule ending as this would contradict:
(Luke 1:33 KJV) And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.
Paul's words need to be understood in a old covenant context:
1 Cor 15:25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
I believe that the enemies Paul is speaking (including death) would be the apostate Gospel rejecting Jews - I don't believe the "nations" would be included in the enemy list:
In the parable Jesus is clearly identifying his rejecters as the apostate Jews:
Luke 19:27 But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.
I know this is not a very good explanation which needs more research, as for the sun turning red giant and consuming the earth when has God been limited by the laws of physics?
It depends on how you view which rule and authority Christ puts to an end - I believe it only speaks of the religious authority of the Old Covenant nation which ended with the destruction of the nation in the 66-70 AD.
Acts 3:17 And now, brethren, I wot that through ignorance ye did it, as did also your rulers.
Also we need to take into account the power of the holy people in Daniel:
Dan 12:7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.
Delivering up the kingdom does not necessarily mean Christ's rule ends.
You can't have Christ's rule ending as this would contradict:
(Luke 1:33 KJV) And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.
Paul's words need to be understood in a old covenant context:
1 Cor 15:25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
I believe that the enemies Paul is speaking (including death) would be the apostate Gospel rejecting Jews - I don't believe the "nations" would be included in the enemy list:
In the parable Jesus is clearly identifying his rejecters as the apostate Jews:
Luke 19:27 But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.
I know this is not a very good explanation which needs more research, as for the sun turning red giant and consuming the earth when has God been limited by the laws of physics?
I want to focus on the harvest at this point.
As I said, Christ is spoken of as having the winnowing fork in his hand by John the Baptist:
Mat 3:12 His winnowing fork is in his hand, and he will clear his threshing floor, gathering his wheat into the barn and burning up the chaff with unquenchable fire
He's previously warned his hearers:
Mat 3:7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
It seems to me that there is an "audience" related connection between the harvest and the "wrath to come".
John 4:35 Say not ye, There are yet four months, and then cometh harvest? behold, I say unto you, Lift up your eyes, and look on the fields; for they are white already to harvest.
John's gospel helps us flesh out the timing and who is being harvested - "fields; for they are white already to harvest".
Mat 9:37 Then saith he unto his disciples, The harvest truly is plenteous, but the labourers are few;
Mat 9:38 KJV Pray ye therefore the Lord of the harvest, that he will send forth labourers into his harvest.
I think we are well within reason to say the "labourers" were his apostles and disciples of the 1st century.
A slightly different view point of the tares and wheat:
Mat 22:3 And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come.
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Mat 22:7 But when the king heard thereof, he was wroth: and he sent forth his armies, and destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city.
This is an obvious allusion to 1st century Jerusalem.
The wedding and the harvest are all part and parcel of the same motif.
Probably more could be said here. But I'll leave it at that.
The "traditional" view of the above in my mind misses the point.
"the creation itself" - I don't think Paul is thinking of animals, plants, rocks and stones here.
In verse 18 Paul speaks of the "sufferings of this present time" - he is dealing with the sufferings due to the persecution inflicted at the hands of the Jews and their agents:
"creation eagerly waits for the revealing of the sons of God" - "creation" could quite easily be translated "creature" - the Greek "ktisis" is also used in
Mark 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
If we consider there was a battle between the opposing Jews and the Christian Jews as to the true identity of the Sons of God, then it could be said that the "creatures" were eagerly awaiting the outcome which was settled when the temple went *poof*.
Mat 3:9 And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.
When the gospel of Christ prevailed in that debacle the "whole of creation" was able to enter into the "liberty of the children of God" - not that all would.
Rom 8:21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
Rom 8:23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
It would be more correct to translate "our body" as "the body". Paul could be very well saying that the redemption was of them as the " body" of Christ, and he has described them as such:
1 Cor 12:27 Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.
Luke 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
The same Greek word is used for redemption in both Luke and Rom 8:23.