Are you preterist or merely 'modified post-trib'?

[PlainWord]

I want to focus on the harvest at this point.

As I said, Christ is spoken of as having the winnowing fork in his hand by John the Baptist:

Mat 3:12 His winnowing fork is in his hand, and he will clear his threshing floor, gathering his wheat into the barn and burning up the chaff with unquenchable fire

He's previously warned his hearers:

Mat 3:7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?

It seems to me that there is an "audience" related connection between the harvest and the "wrath to come".

John 4:35 Say not ye, There are yet four months, and then cometh harvest? behold, I say unto you, Lift up your eyes, and look on the fields; for they are white already to harvest.

John's gospel helps us flesh out the timing and who is being harvested - "fields; for they are white already to harvest".

Mat 9:37 Then saith he unto his disciples, The harvest truly is plenteous, but the labourers are few;

Mat 9:38 KJV Pray ye therefore the Lord of the harvest, that he will send forth labourers into his harvest.

I think we are well within reason to say the "labourers" were his apostles and disciples of the 1st century.

A slightly different view point of the tares and wheat:

Mat 22:3 And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come.
.
.
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Mat 22:7 But when the king heard thereof, he was wroth: and he sent forth his armies, and destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city.

This is an obvious allusion to 1st century Jerusalem.

The wedding and the harvest are all part and parcel of the same motif.

Probably more could be said here. But I'll leave it at that.

After considering all this, I have to agree that Mat 3 and Mat 13 are discussing the same harvests. That said, it is very clear that Mat 3 dealt with the wrath of AD 66-70 as he was addressing the Pharisees and Sadducees when he said, "“Brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the wrath to come?" So, the tares must be the wicked Jews and the wheat, the Christian Jews. Wow. I had that wrong all this time.

John 4:35 Say not ye, There are yet four months, and then cometh harvest? behold, I say unto you, Lift up your eyes, and look on the fields; for they are white already to harvest.

John's gospel helps us flesh out the timing and who is being harvested - "fields; for they are white already to harvest".

Yup, have to agree with you!

This is an obvious allusion to 1st century Jerusalem.

The wedding and the harvest are all part and parcel of the same motif.

Probably more could be said here. But I'll leave it at that.

Very compelling. So what are we left with? I cannot say that Gog of Ez 38-39 and Rev 20 have surrounded the city yet. God basically turns them upon themselves as we've seen Him do before.

 

[Locutus]

When we die, we immediately go to spiritual heaven. I guess I would be a partial dispensationalist. I believe there are three ages, Adam to Noah, Noah to Christ, Christ until the end of the world. I do see an end to physical life on this planet as Paul taught in 1 Cor 15. Christ reigns spiritually until He has put an end to all His enemies.

Actually, four ages, I left out the final eternal state.

"When we die, we immediately go to spiritual heaven" - so how do you explain or account for this change in light of:

1 Cor 15:51 Behold, I show you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed.

 

[PlainWord]

I see 3 earthly dispensations, but I would say its from Adam to Moses (the beginning of Israel as a nation), Moses to Christ, Christ to the end of this age.

The Parable of the Leaven

33 Another parable He spoke to them: “The kingdom of heaven is like leaven, which a woman took and hid in three measures[c] of meal till it was all leavened.”

I can go along with that. Creation to the Law - Law to Grace - Grace - ???

 

[PlainWord]

"When we die, we immediately go to spiritual heaven" - so how do you explain or account for this change in light of:

1 Cor 15:51 Behold, I show you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed.

I always saw that as happening at the return of God, at judgment, at the end of the world.

 

[Locutus]

I always saw that as happening at the return of God, at judgment, at the end of the world.

But is not Paul saying that dead Christians are sleeping rather than "going to spiritual heaven"

(1 Th 4:14 KJV) For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

(1 Th 4:15 KJV) For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

(1 Th 4:16 KJV) For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

Are not dead "sleeping" Christians "waiting" in the Hadean realm?

 

[Locutus]

I spent probably 30 years as a Christian in the dispensational "camp" - reading book after book by various writers on the end times according to dispensationalism.

Around 3 years ago I came across the preterist position - I was dead set against it, I bought Dwight Pentecost's "Things to Come - A Study in Biblical Eschatology", a weighty tome and considered to be THE book on dispensationlism.

After a year of intense study of that and preterist literature I had to admit defeat to preterism.

Since then I've gradually been putting the "preterist" perspective together - it's not been easy and at times I have been at impasses in trying to explain some of the issues normally raised by the "evangelical" approach.

 

[PlainWord]

But is not Paul saying that dead Christians are sleeping rather than "going to spiritual heaven"

(1 Th 4:14 KJV) For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

(1 Th 4:15 KJV) For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

(1 Th 4:16 KJV) For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

Are not dead "sleeping" Christians "waiting" in the Hadean realm?

I don't think so. We have hundreds of witnesses who've died on the operating table who've experienced heaven and seen loved ones, only to be revived and returned to their physical state. Those in heaven were always dressed in white which matches the description John gives these saints in Rev 7. John saw souls, but souls are invisible in our realm, but in heaven they appear in and as spiritual bodies.

I struggled with Rev 20 for many years but finally feel like I get it.

Then I saw the souls (but in heaven they are visible people recognizable in spiritual bodies. If they were just souls, how would John know they were beheaded vs others not beheaded?) of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years (very long time, not a specific 1,000 earth years). [SUP]5 [/SUP]But the rest of the dead (the unsaved who died) did not live again until the thousand years were finished (because they are not in heaven, but are in Hades). This is the first resurrection (Referring back to the souls. Once a believer accepts Christ, he is "born again" having put to death the old man/self and have become saved. "The First Resurrection" therefore is to spiritual and everlasting life). [SUP]6 [/SUP]Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection (Because they are saved into eternal life and will never "die."). Over such the second death (spiritual death) has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years (In heaven, which is where John saw them. Saved souls are in heaven, unsaved souls are in Hades awaiting judgment).

 

[PlainWord]

I spent probably 30 years as a Christian in the dispensational "camp" - reading book after book by various writers on the end times according to dispensationalism.

Around 3 years ago I came across the preterist position - I was dead set against it, I bought Dwight Pentecost's "Things to Come - A Study in Biblical Eschatology", a weighty tome and considered to be THE book on dispensationlism.

After a year of intense study of that and preterist literature I had to admit defeat to preterism.

Since then I've gradually been putting the "preterist" perspective together - it's not been easy and at times I have been at impasses in trying to explain some of the issues normally raised by the "evangelical" approach.

Me too. My dad was a Baptist minister and preached the pre-trib rapture almost weekly. It's all fundamentalists can talk about, the rapture and escaping the Great Tribulation and so-called AntiChrist. They don't realize they missed the GT some 1900+ years ago.

 

[Locutus]

This is the first resurrection (Referring back to the souls. Once a believer accepts Christ, he is "born again" having put to death the old man/self and have become saved. "The First Resurrection" therefore is to spiritual and everlasting life

Let me see if I'm following you here - a believer is "resurrected" when he's born again, so all born again believers partake in the first resurrection in effect?

I am reading your post rightly?

 

[Ahwatukee]

But is not Paul saying that dead Christians are sleeping rather than "going to spiritual heaven"

(1 Th 4:14 KJV) For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

(1 Th 4:15 KJV) For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

(1 Th 4:16 KJV) For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

Are not dead "sleeping" Christians "waiting" in the Hadean realm?

Hello Locutus,

Since we have so many scriptures that demonstrate conscious awareness of the spirit after death, then the term "sleep" is only in reference to the body. Phil.1:23 and 2 Coir.5:8 proclaim that when a believer dies, the spirit/soul departs and goes to be in the presence of the Lord. When the Lord descends and the resurrection takes place, the Lord will bring with him the spirits/souls of those who have died and they will be reunited with their resurrected, immortal and glorified bodies. Immediately after that, those in Christ who are still alive will be changed and caught up with them - 1 Thes.4:13-18

 

[Locutus]

Just ruminating here:


1 Cor 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

1 Cor 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

1 Cor 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

1 Cor 15:55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

1 Cor 15:56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.


I think most theologies view the above "this mortal must put on immortality" is the resurrection - correct?


If the sting of death is sin which gets it's strength from the Law, at what point was the Law "defeated"?

Rom 7:8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.

Rom 7:9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.

 

[Bookends]

Some good questions coming up guys, I'm enjoying the interactions - thanks.



It depends on how you view which rule and authority Christ puts to an end - I believe it only speaks of the religious authority of the Old Covenant nation which ended with the destruction of the nation in the 66-70 AD.

Acts 3:17 And now, brethren, I wot that through ignorance ye did it, as did also your rulers.

Also we need to take into account the power of the holy people in Daniel:

Dan 12:7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.

Delivering up the kingdom does not necessarily mean Christ's rule ends.

You can't have Christ's rule ending as this would contradict:

(Luke 1:33 KJV) And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.

Paul's words need to be understood in a old covenant context:

1 Cor 15:25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.

I believe that the enemies Paul is speaking (including death) would be the apostate Gospel rejecting Jews - I don't believe the "nations" would be included in the enemy list:

In the parable Jesus is clearly identifying his rejecters as the apostate Jews:

Luke 19:27 But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.




I know this is not a very good explanation which needs more research, as for the sun turning red giant and consuming the earth when has God been limited by the laws of physics?

Thank you for your explanation. I will search more in the scriptures regarding this.

As far as God not being limited to physical laws, you're right, however, He has done it yet, He has only suspended them temporarily. So the question is when will He, how will He and does that bring in a new endless age.

 

[Bookends]

Thank you for your explanation. I will search more in the scriptures regarding this.

As far as God not being limited to physical laws, you're right, however, He hasN'T done it yet, He has only suspended them temporarily. So the question is when will He, how will He and does that bring in a new endless age.

correction above.

 

[PlainWord]

Let me see if I'm following you here - a believer is "resurrected" when he's born again, so all born again believers partake in the first resurrection in effect?

I am reading your post rightly?

I am referring to the "first resurrection" of Rev 20. John is using figurative language for resurrection here. Basically he is saying that if you put to death your old sinful self/flesh and become alive in the spirit that you have been born again, first resurrection. It is very much the same or similar to the way it's discussed in his Gospel.

John 3: [SUP]7 [/SUP]Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’

Then there is John 15 and 16 which talks about us not being of this world. Obviously this is spiritual talk and Jesus identifies it as such.

Paul also taught this:

Rom 8:13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.

Here's a clearer example of putting to death the old self and becoming resurrected with Christ and becoming a new man.

Col 3: If then you were raised with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ is, sitting at the right hand of God. [SUP]2 [/SUP]Set your mind on things above, not on things on the earth. [SUP]3 [/SUP]For you died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God. [SUP]4 [/SUP]When Christ who is our life appears, then you also will appear with Him in glory. [SUP]5 [/SUP]Therefore put to death your members which are on the earth: fornication, uncleanness, passion, evil desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry. [SUP]6 [/SUP]Because of these things the wrath of God is coming upon the sons of disobedience, [SUP]7 [/SUP]in which you yourselves once walked when you lived in them.
[SUP]8 [/SUP]But now you yourselves are to put off all these: anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy language out of your mouth. [SUP]9 [/SUP]Do not lie to one another, since you have put off the old man with his deeds, [SUP]10 [/SUP]and have put on the new man who is renewed in knowledge according to the image of Him who created him...

SAVED: Born (physical) - Born again (spiritual, the 1st resurrection) - Death (physical)
UNSAVED: Born (physical) - Death (physical) - Death (spiritual, the 2nd death)

or

SAVED: two births, one death
UNSAVED: one birth, two deaths


In Rev 20, John says this which agrees with the above:

[SUP]6 [/SUP]Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power...

Only the saved partake in the first resurrection and if they do, they never see the second (spiritual) death. Peter echoes this.

1 Pet 3:18: For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit - THIS IS THE 1ST RESURRECTION

 

[iamsoandso]

I spent probably 30 years as a Christian in the dispensational "camp" - reading book after book by various writers on the end times according to dispensationalism.

Around 3 years ago I came across the preterist position - I was dead set against it, I bought Dwight Pentecost's "Things to Come - A Study in Biblical Eschatology", a weighty tome and considered to be THE book on dispensationlism.

After a year of intense study of that and preterist literature I had to admit defeat to preterism.

Since then I've gradually been putting the "preterist" perspective together - it's not been easy and at times I have been at impasses in trying to explain some of the issues normally raised by the "evangelical" approach.

And in the end what exactly what is it that the Heir said to you,the thing she said that made you think?

 

[PlainWord]

Just ruminating here:


1 Cor 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

1 Cor 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

1 Cor 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

1 Cor 15:55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

1 Cor 15:56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.


I think most theologies view the above "this mortal must put on immortality" is the resurrection - correct?


If the sting of death is sin which gets it's strength from the Law, at what point was the Law "defeated"?

Rom 7:8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.

Rom 7:9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.

I equate this:

1 Cor 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

to this:

Acts 24:15: I have hope in God, which they themselves also accept, that there will be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and the unjust.

When do the unjust resurrect?

[SUP]5 [/SUP]But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished.

This is the second resurrection. To call something the "first resurrection" that would imply that there will be more, at least one more, right?

 

[Locutus]

When I mentioned THE resurrection PW I was referring to the out of the "graves" resurrection as per Paul in Acts:

Act 24:15 (Young's) having hope toward God, which they themselves also wait for, that there is about to be a rising again of the dead, both of righteous and unrighteous

Whereas the 1st is a spiritual resurrection of all the born agains.

So I'm guessing that you believe that the 144,000 were those of the 12 tribes of the 1st century were the born again followers of Jesus, as against the mispensational teaching that they are yet to be.

 

[Locutus]

And in the end what exactly what is it that the Heir said to you,the thing she said that made you think?

Are we talking Heir Hitler here or what?

 

[PlainWord]

When I mentioned THE resurrection PW I was referring to the out of the "graves" resurrection as per Paul in Acts:

Act 24:15 (Young's) having hope toward God, which they themselves also wait for, that there is about to be a rising again of the dead, both of righteous and unrighteous

Whereas the 1st is a spiritual resurrection of all the born agains.

So I'm guessing that you believe that the 144,000 were those of the 12 tribes of the 1st century were the born again followers of Jesus, as against the mispensational teaching that they are yet to be.

I was speaking of the bodily resurrection in both passages also by comparing Acts 24:15 and Rev 20:6. This bodily resurrection is the Second Resurrection which takes place on the last day.

As to the 144K, I've held various views on their identity. These include:

1. They represent the saved of Israel from the OT under the Law and they are seen in heaven.
2. They are a future group of witnesses.
3. They are the early church which was located on Mount Zion. According to Josephus, they were told by a loud invisible voice when to flee the Romans. The presence of the Lord came to them when Rome surrounded Jerusalem they heeded His voice and fled, mostly to Pella. The spirit of the Lord guided them where to go (These are the ones who follow the Lamb wherever He goes.) and they were the firstfruits redeemed, meaning they were first saved under the new covenant. Of course now they are in heaven and were seen by John signing a new song before the throne.

I am now leaning towards the 3rd option.

 

[abcdef]

I equate this:

1 Cor 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

to this:

Acts 24:15: I have hope in God, which they themselves also accept, that there will be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and the unjust.

When do the unjust resurrect?

[SUP]5 [/SUP]But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished.

This is the second resurrection. To call something the "first resurrection" that would imply that there will be more, at least one more, right?

Brother PlainWord,

There are only 2 resurrections,

1 Cor 15:23-28, 23-24,

The 1st is Jesus the first fruits.

The 2nd is at His coming.

--

If you teach that baptism is a resurrection, then you are teaching 3 resurrections.

--

The 1st resurrection that is shown in Rev 20:4-6, is literally the 1st resurrection when Jesus was resurrected.

The souls that are seen ruling the Pentecost Kingdom from heaven, are from the 1st resurrection. (John the Baptist was beheaded and did not wear the mark of the 4th beast, Rome)

--

The 2nd resurrection happens, after the 4th beast NATION (iron legs, the Dragon Rev 20:2 and Rev 12:3, 7 heads and 10 horns Rome),

Returns from the abyss (place of the dead),

To deceive Magog into surrounding Jerusalem, restored to Israel (beginning to happen right now)

--

The mill is symbolic of the time of the Pentecost Kingdom (church).

--

Both the just and the unjust will be raised at the coming of Jesus for the Pentecost Kingdom at the end of the mill. Jn 5:28 all.

The just, is everyone who has died in Christ since the resurrection of Jesus, who are in Paradise now, until His coming.

The unjust is everyone who is not saved,

That would be everyone who was left on the suffering side of Hades when Jesus resurrected,

And everyone who has died since then who is not saved.