Are you preterist or merely 'modified post-trib'?

[Locutus]

Now you are back to mixing deaths again:

(Isa 65:17 KJV) For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.

(Isa 65:20 KJV) There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.

So in the new heavens and earth we have physical death and sin.

So this contradicts what you are claiming Mr. Alphabet.

 

[PlainWord]

The Kingdom began on Pentecost, so my understanding is that the mill began then.

Yes, better said. I said the Cross, but what's 50 days?

The chain that restrains the dragon in Rev 20:2, is the same picture as the dragon that sends the flood out after the woman in Rev 12:15-17.

Yes it is the same dragon. Satan had tried to completely and utterly destroy the Jewish people (God's Chosen) from the face of the earth using the Roman armies under Titus. But Titus kept some alive and brought them to Rome. Others escaped and fled to the nations (The earth swallowed up the flood).

Rome cannot reach Israel after they have fled so far away, after the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 ad, for the times of the gentiles. But NOW the times of the gentiles is over and Israel is restored to Jerusalem.

Satan (using Rome) could not kill all the Jews. YES, the times of the Gentiles is over.

You have got it.

But, WAKE UP !

This is happening right now !

I'm not sleeping!! LOL. Satan has been "unchained" and I already see how this will likely play out. The two witnesses are Israel and the USA. They stand against the world in the final days. 45% of the Jewish population is in Israel, 45% in America. The Muslim world hates Israel ("little Satan") and the USA ("big Satan"). What do they chant and what do their signs say? What flags do they burn in the streets of Tehran? "DEATH TO AMERICA, DEATH TO ISRAEL." I have yet to see a sign that says, "Death to the UK, Death to Canada, Death to France, Death to Sweden or Germany or Death to Spain."

For a time, Israel and USA will impose their will and military strength on the "earth." Iran (Persia) will attempt to get a nuclear weapon but Israel and the USA will strike their facilities and do great damage. Iran will respond. They will attack and invade Saudi Arabia and other countries.

What countries invade and are part of the Gog alliance?

Gog, the prince of Rosh, Meshech, and Tubal (Mostly like Russia and her allies)
Persia, (IRAN)
Ethiopia (Includes Somalia and Sudan)
and Libya
Gomer and all its troops; (Celtic people, large chunks of Europe)
the house of Togarmah (Turkey, Armenia, Syria and surrounding areas)

For 1,260 days the two witnesses will be given power to "testify" or instruct the world. They will be able to impose their will on the "earth" and punish those who oppose them. You know the rest of the story.

 

[PlainWord]

Now you are back to mixing deaths again:

(Isa 65:17 KJV) For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.

(Isa 65:20 KJV) There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.

So in the new heavens and earth we have physical death and sin.

So this contradicts what you are claiming Mr. Alphabet.

Another Dispensation to come?

 

[PlainWord]

There are some things that are not scientifically explained to us,

That will not be understood until we meet Him.

What kind of NEW body we have cannot be explained for now, as it is spirit and beyond our understanding.

1 Cor 15:35-50
--
The lust of the flesh, and all that is in this world is passing away, 1 Jn 2:16-17

The flesh is part of this world and must pass away,

If there is flesh, there would be lust.
--
2 Cor 4:18, the things which are seen are temporal, if you can see it, it is temporal.

Agreed. I cannot figure out the purpose of the physical resurrection as those in heaven right now are very much alive and indestructible. What happens when their dust and soul and spirit meet up again? What change takes place that hasn't already taken place? Witnesses who have encountered near death experiences and come back to tell what they saw clearly can identify their loved ones and many have spoken to them. There was much joy and giddiness expressed to the one who returned almost like there is a big secret that they weren't allowed to reveal.

2 Cor 5:8, does not say that, it only says that Paul would prefer to be with Jesus rather that in the body. (who wouldn't?)

It doesn't say that when you die that you go directly to Jesus.

You go to Paradise to wait for the 2nd resurrection when Jesus comes for the Pentecost Kingdom.

The Lord didn't stay in Paradise did HE? I agree that's where Christ originally went when He died on the Cross, but when He arose, He ascended to the right hand of the Father which is where Stephen saw Him. So when a believer dies today (or any time since Christ's ascension) they immediately go to Heaven, not Paradise because Christ isn't in Paradise anymore. So when you are absent from the body you are present with the Lord and the Lord is in Heaven.

They are saying the same thing, that there are 2 resurrections.

The 1st resurrection is Jesus.

The 2nd is at His coming for the Pentecost Kingdom.

I respectfully disagree. John saw souls. Souls are found in heaven. How do you avoid the second death (i.e., the spiritual death)? John says you have to be part of the first resurrection.

The souls that are seen are from the resurrection when Jesus rose,

Jesus carried them to heaven, Eph 4:8-10.

Can't be. They were beheaded by the Beast and did not take the "mark." They live 1,000 years with Christ AFTER being beheaded and not taking the mark. What saints died before Christ that were subjected to the "beast and the mark?" You've been saying that the "Beast" is/was the Roman Empire. In 63 B.C.E, the Roman general Pompey conquered the land of Israel, ended the Hasmonean state and brought Palestine into the Roman Empire. Are you saying only those killed between 63 BC and Christ in 30 AD arose with Christ?

 

[PlainWord]

Rev 17:3 So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.

The woman is described with being found with the blood of the prophets:

Rev 18:24 And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.

Rome was not accounted with the blood of the prophets, 1st century Jerusalem was:

(Mat 23:37 KJV) O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

There is no mechanism to transfer the blood guilt from 1st century AD Jerusalem to Rome.

Is there any religion today which is guilty of killing prophets and saints? A prophet doesn't have to be one who sees the future, they are also and more commonly called "teachers." What religion today has it in for Jews and Christians? What religion has killed more than 50 million since its founding? What religion has a false prophet with origins to Babylon?

 

[Locutus]

Another Dispensation to come?

If we tie in the new heavens and earth of Isaiah with the new heavens and earth where does John mention another dispensation PL.

 

[Locutus]

Is there any religion today which is guilty of killing prophets and saints? A prophet doesn't have to be one who sees the future, they are also and more commonly called "teachers." What religion today has it in for Jews and Christians? What religion has killed more than 50 million since its founding? What religion has a false prophet with origins to Babylon?

The problem here PL is Jesus said it was Jerusalem - when John called the woman mystery Babylon he's using that figuratively.

Just as he did with the great city:

(Rev 11:8 KJV) And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.


If you take the time to read all the "great city" verses in the revelation you will not see John change the identity from "where also our Lord was crucified" to another city.

 

[PlainWord]

The problem here PL is Jesus said it was Jerusalem - when John called the woman mystery Babylon he's using that figuratively.

Just as he did with the great city:

(Rev 11:8 KJV) And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.


If you take the time to read all the "great city" verses in the revelation you will not see John change the identity from "where also our Lord was crucified" to another city.

Was Jerusalem located in a wilderness?

Why didn't John identify it as Jerusalem instead of using figurative words such as Sodom and Egypt?

What "kings of the earth" would mourn at Jerusalem being thrown down in AD 70 or today?

Please identify which kings of the earth have committed fornication with her.

Jerusalem is not visible from the Mediterranean Sea. So how does this apply? "Every shipmaster, all who travel by ship, sailors, and as many as trade on the sea, stood at a distance [SUP]18 [/SUP]and cried out when they saw the smoke of her burning."

It took Rome about 45 days to dismantle Jerusalem stone by stone. So, does this apply? "For in one hour she is made desolate."

"for by your sorcery all the nations were deceived." Which nations were deceived by Tyrants John of Gischala and Simon bar Giora, or anyone else in 70 AD? The Idumeans? Who else? It says, all nations" were deceived.

Granted many of the clues fit but many don't. You see I think there will be another "Great City - Babylon" that will be thrown down.

 

[PlainWord]

If we tie in the new heavens and earth of Isaiah with the new heavens and earth where does John mention another dispensation PL.

I was asking you. How does Isaiah 65 fit in?

 

[abcdef]

Now you are back to mixing deaths again:

(Isa 65:17 KJV) For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.

(Isa 65:20 KJV) There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.

So in the new heavens and earth we have physical death and sin.

So this contradicts what you are claiming Mr. Alphabet.

Rev 21:4 and Rev 22:4

 

[Locutus]

Was Jerusalem located in a wilderness?

Why didn't John identify it as Jerusalem instead of using figurative words such as Sodom and Egypt?

I'm short on time today PL - John's language is very figurative - he is using language from the old testament:

Deu 32:32 For their vine is of the vine of Sodom, and of the fields of Gomorrah: their grapes are grapes of gall, their clusters are bitter:

Egypt was bondage from which the early Israelites escaped:

John is using the metaphor of bondage in the way Paul did:

Gal 4:25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.

Gal 4:26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

This is typical biblical/Hebraic style.

There is a reason John told them to come out of her:

(Rev 18:4 KJV) And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.

 

[Ahwatukee]

The problem here PL is Jesus said it was Jerusalem - when John called the woman mystery Babylon he's using that figuratively.

Just as he did with the great city:

(Rev 11:8 KJV) And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.


If you take the time to read all the "great city" verses in the revelation you will not see John change the identity from "where also our Lord was crucified" to another city.

Once again Locutus, Jerusalem is not Mystery, Babylon the great, the woman who rides the beast. I have already proven this to you but you have not believed it. The short version is that, God puts it into the hearts of the beast and the ten kings to hate the woman, completely destroying her so that no one will ever inhabit her again. Yet, after Satan is released from the Abyss, he gathers those people figuratively called Gog and Magog and they surround the camp of God's people, the city that he loves, which could only be Jerusalem.

That this event takes place at the end of the thousand year period, would demonstrate that Jerusalem will be inhabited during the thousand year reign of Christ all the way up to the end. Since the woman, that great city, is destroyed sometime during the great tribulation period, how then can the woman be Jerusalem? For she is destroyed and uninhabitable and Jerusalem has people living in it throughout the thousand years. Your problem is incomplete exegesis.

The destruction of the woman who rides the beast, that great city during the tribulation:
===================================

"With such violence the great city of Babylon will be thrown down, never to be found again.

* The music of harpists and musicians, pipers and trumpeters, will never be heard in you again.
* No worker of any trade will ever be found in you again.* The sound of a millstone will never be heard in you again.
* The light of a lamp will never shine in you again.
* The voice of bridegroom and bride will never be heard in you again.

===================================

Jerusalem inhabited throughout the entire thousand years to the very end:

"When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth—Gog and Magog—and to gather them for battle. In number they are like the sand on the seashore. They marched across the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of God’s people, the city he loves. But fire came down from heaven and devoured them.

Conclusion: The woman who rides the beast, which is that great city that rules over the kings of the earth, is destroyed during the last 3 1/2 years before Christ returns to the earth to end the age, never to be inhabited ever again. Jerusalem on the other hand, is shown to be inhabited throughout the entire thousand year reign of Christ. Therefore, the woman who rides the beast, that great city, cannot possibly be Jerusalem.

 

[Locutus]

I was asking you. How does Isaiah 65 fit in?

It ties in with the same "new heaven and earth" in John revelation - in both "situations" there are still sinners:

Rev 22:11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.

 

[abcdef]

Brother PlainWord,

Agreed. I cannot figure out the purpose of the physical resurrection as those in heaven right now are very much alive and indestructible.

.

I agree.

The physical resurrection of the material body, calcium, water, iron, as we know it will not happen.

We will be transformed from the material world, into the spiritual realm, if we are still alive.

The dead in Paradise, who are already in the spiritual realm will rise to meet Jesus (first).

The exact scientific explanation of how this happens is not necessary for our salvation, Jesus will make it all known when we meet Him.

-----

Understand that the 2 witnesses whose bodies lie in the streets for 3 1/2 days are materially resurrected in Rev 11:12.

Jesus was.

But at what point does the material, transform into the spiritual, the eternal?

When a person passes from old age, do you really want that old worn out body back?

---

If the dead in Christ rise first,

And the dead in Christ, are already with Jesus,

Who are the dead in Christ, who rise from the dead?

--
Choose one or more,

1. It is the Physical body ONLY that rises because the souls are already in heaven with Jesus.

2. It is the souls only (righteous), of those who have died since the 1st resurrection.

3. The souls rise from Paradise and pick up their transformed material body on the way.

4. The option that I missed.

---

It's #2 for me.

What happens when their dust and soul and spirit meet up again? What change takes place that hasn't already taken place? Witnesses who have encountered near death experiences and come back to tell what they saw clearly can identify their loved ones and many have spoken to them. There was much joy and giddiness expressed to the one who returned almost like there is a big secret that they weren't allowed to reveal.

The Lord didn't stay in Paradise did HE?

No, Rom 14:8-9, But he is the God of the "dead" and the living, the dead being those who are in Christ, waiting for the 2nd, last resurrection.

Jesus called it Paradise before He went there.

I agree that's where Christ originally went when He died on the Cross, but when He arose, He ascended to the right hand of the Father which is where Stephen saw Him.

Praise Jesus !!!!! Amen Brother !!!!

So when a believer dies today (or any time since Christ's ascension) they immediately go to Heaven,

Show me the scripture that says this.

not Paradise because Christ isn't in Paradise anymore.

No, But he is Lord there, Rom 14:9.

So when you are absent from the body you are present with the Lord and the Lord is in Heaven.

Verses?

I respectfully disagree. John saw souls. Souls are found in heaven. How do you avoid the second death (i.e., the spiritual death)? John says you have to be part of the first resurrection.

John saw the souls from the first resurrection, when Jesus rose.

I believe, that he says that these are souls that, took part, in the 1st resurrection, Rev 20:6.

He's not saying that you must take part in the 1st resurrection to be saved, exclusively, is he?

Can't be. They were beheaded by the Beast and did not take the "mark." They live 1,000 years with Christ AFTER being beheaded and not taking the mark. What saints died before Christ that were subjected to the "beast and the mark?"

John the Baptist.

The beast nation (4th, iron legs) and the mark of the 4th beast began when Rome invaded Israel and Jerusalem. (not some future event)

You've been saying that the "Beast" is/was the Roman Empire. In 63 B.C.E, the Roman general Pompey conquered the land of Israel, ended the Hasmonean state and brought Palestine into the Roman Empire.

Yes.

Are you saying only those killed between 63 BC and Christ in 30 AD arose with Christ?

Those who rose at the 1st resurrection are,

The 24 elders, Rev 4:2

The 144000, called the first fruits in Rev 14:4

The multitude, Rev 7:13-17

The souls under the alter, Rev 6:9-11

The souls in heaven in Rev 20

Adam, Able, Noah, Abraham, Israel, David, Daniel, John the Baptist

 

[Ahwatukee]

It ties in with the same "new heaven and earth" in John revelation - in both "situations" there are still sinners:

Rev 22:11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.

Man, you guys!

Rev.22:11 is outside of the narrative! It is not in reference to those who are living during the time of the new heaven, new earth and new Jerusalem.

"Let the one who does wrong continue to do wrong; let the vile person continue to be vile; let the one who does right continue to do right; and let the holy person continue to be holy.”

The above is in reference to all people from the time that it was written, to current and everyone thereafter. Anyone who does wrong or who is vile, will be cast into the lake of fire at the end of the thousand years. During the time of the new heaven, new earth and new Jerusalem, there will be no one who does wrong or who is vile or commits any sin and that because everyone will have been changed into those immortal and glorified bodies. Anyone with those sinful characteristics will have been thrown into the lake of fire prior to the new heaven, new earth and new Jerusalem. There will be no sinners after the great white throne judgment.

 

[Locutus]

. During the time of the new heaven, new earth and new Jerusalem, there will be no one who does wrong or who is vile or commits any sin and that because everyone will have been changed into those immortal and glorified bodies.

That's where your are wrong - Isaiah claims there is death and sin in the new heavens and earth:

(Isa 65:17 KJV) For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.

Isa 65:18 But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy.

Isa 65:20 There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.

I was in the "dispensational camp" for 30 years or so, so you ain't going to return me to my vomit...

 

[Ahwatukee]

That's where your are wrong - Isaiah claims there is death and sin in the new heavens and earth:

(Isa 65:17 KJV) For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.

Isa 65:18 But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy.

Isa 65:20 There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.

I was in the "dispensational camp" for 30 years or so, so you ain't going to return me to my vomit...

I'm not saying that you will return to your own vomit. I'm saying that the result of all sin is taken care of at the great white throne judgment. Anyone's name not found in the book of life will at that time be throne into the lake of fire. After that, in the new heaven, new earth and new Jerusalem, sin no longer exists there.

 

[Locutus]

I'm not saying that you will return to your own vomit. I'm saying that the result of all sin is taken care of at the great white throne judgment. Anyone's name not found in the book of life will at that time be throne into the lake of fire. After that, in the new heaven, new earth and new Jerusalem, sin no longer exists there.

Isa 65:20 There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.


You are directly contradicting the above - but this is nothing new with the misdispensational crowd...

 

[Ahwatukee]

Isa 65:20 There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.


You are directly contradicting the above - but this is nothing new with the misdispensational crowd...

Locutus, Is.65:20 which you quoted above, is in reference to the Christ's thousand year reign. Death is destroyed at the great white throne judgment, as seen in Rev.20:14. The new heaven, new earth and new Jerusalem exist after the great white throne judgment where there is no more death, crying or pain. For the old order of things will have passed away:

"Behold, the dwelling place of God is with man, and He will live with them. They will be His people, and God Himself will be with them as their God.

He will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and there will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the former things have passed away.”

Isa.65:20 is in reference to the millennial period, not the eternal period which follows. For death will still be in operation during the thousand year reign of Christ. During the time of the new Jerusalem, which is in eternity, there will be no more death and that because death will have been previously thrown into the lake of fire at the great white throne judgment.

You are simply misapplying scripture.

 

[PlainWord]

I'm short on time today PL - John's language is very figurative - he is using language from the old testament:

Deu 32:32 For their vine is of the vine of Sodom, and of the fields of Gomorrah: their grapes are grapes of gall, their clusters are bitter:

Egypt was bondage from which the early Israelites escaped:

John is using the metaphor of bondage in the way Paul did:

Gal 4:25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.

Gal 4:26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

This is typical biblical/Hebraic style.

There is a reason John told them to come out of her:

(Rev 18:4 KJV) And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.

Absolutely!! I know John uses OT symbolism. I am one of the loudest voices on here trying to explain this to people. Thanks for the DEU 32 passage. I'm well familiar with the Gal 4 passage. Did you notice in Gal 4 the other group who Paul was comparing the Jews with? Who are the Children of Hagar and what faith do they mostly follow?

Got to run too. I am enjoying our dialogue.