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Re: PreTrib is invalidated because it does not uphold "no one knows the day or hour"
Wait a minute. They do TOO have the ability to recognize the times and the seasons. "When the branch is tender...then you know that summer is near". Why would you make this claim? It seems you're huffing and puffing, trying to make your theory fit into the passage. Just my impression.
Again, all of this is very, very, very simple to me -- first the abomination...then the great tribulation...at the end of the tribulation, there is the "gathering".
I guess I just don't yet understand what you're saying or arguing. Other than...you're trying to fit a phantom "PreTrib rapture" into the text. You would need to divorce verse 30's mention of the "coming of the Son of Man"..from verse 36's mention of the "coming of the Son of Man" --
Verse 30 -- "they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds..."
Verse 36, 37 -- "But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone. For the coming of the Son of Man will be just like the days of Noah...".
Apparently, you're trying to argue these are two different "comings" even though mentioned a couple of verses apart? That's a disconnect for me. That is flat-out wrenching the Scriptures. The text is obviously referring to the same event.
Don't know what you mean. The chronology is ultra-simple-- 1) The abomination 2) great trib 3) the gathering (accompanied by cosmic signs).
Verses 36 through 41 are referring to the "gathering". What's not to understand? Verse 42 is once again hearkening back to the "coming of the Lord" described previously in verse 30 and 36, 37:
"Therefore be on the alert for you do not know which day your Lord is coming."
My friend, there is NO reference at ALL. Come on now. IF...there were a previously established doctrine of PreTrib where you could point to some other passage which clearly depicted PreTrib...you might have a prayer. But even then...the text is so plain...in the way it repeatedly refers to the "coming of the Lord" occurring just "after the tribulation of those days".
The coming of the Lord occurs AFTER the tribulation. It's stated directly in the text...in verses 30 and 36, 37.
I'm not advocating moving anything. (?) Whatever your struggles are with some of the descriptions Jesus provides...you can't concoct a completely and totally unmentioned "rapture" previous to the entire 70th Week and claim that is being described in matthew 24. My goodness! PreTribbers haven't previously established the existence of this doctrine anywhere else..so why should they think they can do it NOW? Without further ado, announce the existence of this (still unmentioned) doctrine and claim it is found in Matthew 24???
Who said "LARGE" stars have hit the earth? The "stars falling from the sky" is a commonly-used legit expression...not meant to be taken hyper-literally. A hyper-literalist here would have to concede that just one literal "star" would absolutely obliterate and pulverize the entire planet. No, "stars falling from the sky" is just used as the common expression we all understand -- there will be an appearance of innumerable stars falling from the sky...probably (or maybe) because planet earth will be traveling (providentially) through a huge cosmic dust cloud (the tail of a comet or something).
That's right. They...won't...know. But wait -- you're twisting a bit. Come on now -- it's not that they won't "know when"...it's that they won't know "the day or hour". They'll know it's close. No more than 2 or 3 years away...because, if they're good Bible students, they will know that the Great Tribulation AND the "day of the Lord" BOTH need to fit inside these 1260 days.
That there is a warning to **believers** they won't know the day or the hour; to **believers** they won't know the times or the seasons.
So are you saying that 24:36-44 is not **after** these things? Or are you suggesting all of the first part of Matthew 24 occurs simultaneous to 24:36-44?
I guess I just don't yet understand what you're saying or arguing. Other than...you're trying to fit a phantom "PreTrib rapture" into the text. You would need to divorce verse 30's mention of the "coming of the Son of Man"..from verse 36's mention of the "coming of the Son of Man" --
Verse 30 -- "they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds..."
Verse 36, 37 -- "But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone. For the coming of the Son of Man will be just like the days of Noah...".
Apparently, you're trying to argue these are two different "comings" even though mentioned a couple of verses apart? That's a disconnect for me. That is flat-out wrenching the Scriptures. The text is obviously referring to the same event.
It appears to me you yourself are moving the events of 24:36-44 to somewhere else on the prophetic timeline and that you don't hold that there is a strict chronology of Matthew 24.
Verses 36 through 41 are referring to the "gathering". What's not to understand? Verse 42 is once again hearkening back to the "coming of the Lord" described previously in verse 30 and 36, 37:
"Therefore be on the alert for you do not know which day your Lord is coming."
I don't think it's an indirect reference at all
The coming of the Lord occurs AFTER the tribulation. It's stated directly in the text...in verses 30 and 36, 37.
you are advocating moving this narrative someplace else on the time line.
that LARGE "stars" have hit the earth
that genocide of believers and Jews are occurring, there are false Christs up the wazoo, (from Revelation) that people are taking the mark of the beast ... and yet Christ warns **believers** that they know not when their Lord comes. That there is a warning to **believers** they won't know the day or the hour; to **believers** they won't know the times or the seasons.