The Rapture of the Church
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This has puzzled me as well I have asked people in the past about it and no one has ever answered the question. When we die we are with the Lord so does that mean the dead return with him and if so exactly when do they receive their immortal bodies. More important how do they in particular those who have been cremated. In Jesus time it seems that people believed that the dead literally rise from their tombs. Even now there is a Cemetery on the Mount of Olives where notable people are buried so that they have a good place to be when the Messiah/God returns. In Matthew we are told that after the Resurrection dead people were seen walking around Jerusalem which is rarely discussed by anyone if ever.
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Good day D,
The wrath of God is the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments. To say that the information that the seven thunders uttered, would be to assume that you know what they said. We all know that is not possible, because John was told not to write what they said. Therefore, to say that the Thunders are wrath, would be purely conjecture.
Also, as I have pointed out many times, the bowl judgments are said to be last completing God's wrath. If they are "last" then other wrath would have to be first or before them, namely the seals and trumpet judgments. In addition, Jesus is the One who is opening the seals, which lead into the trumpets, followed by the bowl judgments, demonstrating that he is initiating these three sets of seven plagues of wrath, which make up the wrath of God.
"I saw in heaven another great and marvelous sign: seven angels with the seven last plagues—last, because with them God’s wrath is completed."
If the seven bowls as a unit are the last plagues, then other plagues of wrath will have had to come before them, which are the seals and trumpets. The reason that people claim that only the bowls as being wrath is to support their interpretation. The fact is that, the seals, trumpets and bowl are all referred to as being wrath.
6th Seal
"They called to the mountains and the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us[SUP]f[/SUP] from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! For the great day of their[SUP]g[/SUP] wrath has come, and who can withstand it?”
7th Trumpet
" We give thanks to you, Lord God Almighty, the One who is and who was, because you have taken your great power and have begun to reign. The nations were angry, and your wrath has come.
Seven Bowls
"I saw in heaven another great and marvelous sign: seven angels with the seven last plagues—last, because with them God’s wrath is completed."
Again, if the seven bowls "complete" God's wrath, then other wrath had to start it, which are the seals and the trumpets.
The wrath of God is the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments. To say that the information that the seven thunders uttered, would be to assume that you know what they said. We all know that is not possible, because John was told not to write what they said. Therefore, to say that the Thunders are wrath, would be purely conjecture.
Also, as I have pointed out many times, the bowl judgments are said to be last completing God's wrath. If they are "last" then other wrath would have to be first or before them, namely the seals and trumpet judgments. In addition, Jesus is the One who is opening the seals, which lead into the trumpets, followed by the bowl judgments, demonstrating that he is initiating these three sets of seven plagues of wrath, which make up the wrath of God.
"I saw in heaven another great and marvelous sign: seven angels with the seven last plagues—last, because with them God’s wrath is completed."
If the seven bowls as a unit are the last plagues, then other plagues of wrath will have had to come before them, which are the seals and trumpets. The reason that people claim that only the bowls as being wrath is to support their interpretation. The fact is that, the seals, trumpets and bowl are all referred to as being wrath.
6th Seal
"They called to the mountains and the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us[SUP]f[/SUP] from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! For the great day of their[SUP]g[/SUP] wrath has come, and who can withstand it?”
7th Trumpet
" We give thanks to you, Lord God Almighty, the One who is and who was, because you have taken your great power and have begun to reign. The nations were angry, and your wrath has come.
Seven Bowls
"I saw in heaven another great and marvelous sign: seven angels with the seven last plagues—last, because with them God’s wrath is completed."
Again, if the seven bowls "complete" God's wrath, then other wrath had to start it, which are the seals and the trumpets.
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Trials and tribulation = What believers in Christ have suffered from the on-set of the church
God's wrath = An unprecedented time of God's direct wrath after the church has been removed
Believers in Christ are not appointed to suffer wrath and therefore we cannot go through God's wrath, which begins at the opening of the first seal.
Believers in the church have been suffering tribulation and persecution from the on-set of the church until this very day, and that because we belong to Christ.
Once the church has been completed, the Lord will appear and the dead will resurrect and the living in Christ will be transformed, with the entire group going back to the Father's house, just as Jesus promised.
Once the church has been removed, then God's wrath will ensue with that ruler, the antichrist making his seven year covenant with Israel, which is represented by the rider on the white horse at the opening of the first seal, followed by the rest of the seals, the trumpets and the bowl judgments. Immediately after that, the Lord will return to the earth to end the age with those who will have previously been resurrected and caught up, as that army riding on white horses wearing fine linen, white and clean, his called, chosen and faithful followers - Rev.17:14
God's wrath = An unprecedented time of God's direct wrath after the church has been removed
Believers in Christ are not appointed to suffer wrath and therefore we cannot go through God's wrath, which begins at the opening of the first seal.
Believers in the church have been suffering tribulation and persecution from the on-set of the church until this very day, and that because we belong to Christ.
Once the church has been completed, the Lord will appear and the dead will resurrect and the living in Christ will be transformed, with the entire group going back to the Father's house, just as Jesus promised.
Once the church has been removed, then God's wrath will ensue with that ruler, the antichrist making his seven year covenant with Israel, which is represented by the rider on the white horse at the opening of the first seal, followed by the rest of the seals, the trumpets and the bowl judgments. Immediately after that, the Lord will return to the earth to end the age with those who will have previously been resurrected and caught up, as that army riding on white horses wearing fine linen, white and clean, his called, chosen and faithful followers - Rev.17:14
Hey Tanakh,,been awhile.... Longer than I thought,,,,you are forgetting.
You said:
"When we die we are with the Lord so does that mean the dead return with him and if so exactly when do they receive their immortal bodies." When we die, our souls will go to heaven to await the Rapture. At this time, the Dead (in Christ) will be raise first and their souls in heaven will be reunited with their mortal bodies in order to receive an immortal body. The those that are still alive (those in Christ) will be raised and their bodies will be changed to immortal bodies.
" More important how do they in particular those who have been cremated."
Do you really do not think that He cannot raise the death who have no bodies including those in the sea that have been eaten. HIS breath created everything...WHy would you think that.....????
"In Matthew we are told that after the Resurrection dead people were seen walking around Jerusalem which is rarely discussed by anyone if ever.This was during or at the time of Jesus' death. After his resurrection they were seen walking in the city. Matthew 27:52
Have a nice day my friend
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Sometimes when things seem ridiculous it is because they are. The bodies of those who died in the distant past are not in graves at all, how about the Christians who drown at sea and were eaten by fish. How about Christians who died in fires and their ashes are all across the earth. To just say that God can do it is not really an answer...just a cop-out. Paul said that what goes into the ground is not what is resurrected. Flesh and blood is not going to come up out of that ground once it has died, decayed, and ceased to exist in any one place.
The wrath is announced in heaven AT THE 7TH trump as having arrived....THE LOST men hiding in the dens and caves saying that GOD's wrath has arrived IS NOT the announcement in HEAVEN that GOD's wrath has arrived....
THE bible records the verbiage of many WHO ARE NOT RIGHT and or CORRECT in what they are saying or ASSUMING and this is what YOU are missing bro.....
I never said the thunders were the WRATH of GOD, but found UNDER the great tribulation.....
I WILL take the ANNOUNCEMENT in HEAVEN before the THRONE at the 7th TRUMP that God's wrath has ARRIVED over the worldly people HIDING and ASSUMING that his wrath has ARRIVED any day of the week...
THE bible records the verbiage of many WHO ARE NOT RIGHT and or CORRECT in what they are saying or ASSUMING and this is what YOU are missing bro.....
I never said the thunders were the WRATH of GOD, but found UNDER the great tribulation.....
I WILL take the ANNOUNCEMENT in HEAVEN before the THRONE at the 7th TRUMP that God's wrath has ARRIVED over the worldly people HIDING and ASSUMING that his wrath has ARRIVED any day of the week...
M
Amen to that! And this is doubly confirmed in Joel 2:31 which clearly and specifically explains that God's wrath only begins AFTER the cosmic signs. Exactly as described in Rev. 6.
Joel 2:31 -- "The sun will be turned into darkness and the moon into blood BEFORE the great and awesome day of the Lord comes."
The cosmic signs HAVE to occur before the Day of the Lord.
The Day of the Lord HAS to occur AFTER the cosmic signs.
Case closed.
Joel 2:31 -- "The sun will be turned into darkness and the moon into blood BEFORE the great and awesome day of the Lord comes."
The cosmic signs HAVE to occur before the Day of the Lord.
The Day of the Lord HAS to occur AFTER the cosmic signs.
Case closed.
Samuel.Hello.... The dead will rise....The bodies,,,YES,,,God knows where they are at...If you do not have enough faith to believe that then my friend you have big troubles.
In Mat 27: 51-53....."At that moment the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth quaked and the rocks were split. 52The tombs broke open, and the bodies of many saints who had fallen asleep were raised. 53After Jesus’ resurrection, when they had come out of the tombs, they entered the holy city and appeared to many people.…
If you want to read more,,,by all means as it seems you may need it..However, this is when Jesus was Resurrected. When He ascended he took with him all the souls in (Abraham's Bosom) part of Sheol.
So you think the body of one of the prophets just crawled up out of the grave like some scary movie. It is obvious that they did see some of the saints who had died in the past when they we allowed to go on into Heaven, the expression bodies were raised was just an expression to account for the fact that they were seen. In most cases there are no bodies to know where they are, they went back into the earth and have long since become part of the planet. Again, Paul made the point that flesh and blood would not be raised.
The wrath is announced in heaven AT THE 7TH trump as having arrived....THE LOST men hiding in the dens and caves saying that GOD's wrath has arrived IS NOT the announcement in HEAVEN that GOD's wrath has arrived....
THE bible records the verbiage of many WHO ARE NOT RIGHT and or CORRECT in what they are saying or ASSUMING and this is what YOU are missing bro.....
I never said the thunders were the WRATH of GOD, but found UNDER the great tribulation.....
I WILL take the ANNOUNCEMENT in HEAVEN before the THRONE at the 7th TRUMP that God's wrath has ARRIVED over the worldly people HIDING and ASSUMING that his wrath has ARRIVED any day of the week...
THE bible records the verbiage of many WHO ARE NOT RIGHT and or CORRECT in what they are saying or ASSUMING and this is what YOU are missing bro.....
I never said the thunders were the WRATH of GOD, but found UNDER the great tribulation.....
I WILL take the ANNOUNCEMENT in HEAVEN before the THRONE at the 7th TRUMP that God's wrath has ARRIVED over the worldly people HIDING and ASSUMING that his wrath has ARRIVED any day of the week...
Hello DC... has been a while..... Most scholars agree that God's Wrath (Eschatological Wrath) is apparent in Revelation from Chapter 6 thru Chapter 19.
Also, the "Great Tribulation" is attributed to the last 3 1/2 years of the 7 years of tribulation as confirmed by both Daniel 9:27 and Jesus in Matthew 24:21
G
The wrath is announced in heaven AT THE 7TH trump as having arrived....THE LOST men hiding in the dens and caves saying that GOD's wrath has arrived IS NOT the announcement in HEAVEN that GOD's wrath has arrived....
THE bible records the verbiage of many WHO ARE NOT RIGHT and or CORRECT in what they are saying or ASSUMING and this is what YOU are missing bro.....
I never said the thunders were the WRATH of GOD, but found UNDER the great tribulation.....
I WILL take the ANNOUNCEMENT in HEAVEN before the THRONE at the 7th TRUMP that God's wrath has ARRIVED over the worldly people HIDING and ASSUMING that his wrath has ARRIVED any day of the week...
THE bible records the verbiage of many WHO ARE NOT RIGHT and or CORRECT in what they are saying or ASSUMING and this is what YOU are missing bro.....
I never said the thunders were the WRATH of GOD, but found UNDER the great tribulation.....
I WILL take the ANNOUNCEMENT in HEAVEN before the THRONE at the 7th TRUMP that God's wrath has ARRIVED over the worldly people HIDING and ASSUMING that his wrath has ARRIVED any day of the week...
What people often do not understand about 'Seal 6' is that the time frame / span it represents overlaps all of the 'trumpets' and all of the 'vials'. Revelation 6:12-14 is not describing a singular continuous 'event' - about which and upon which ( and along with ) Revelation 6:15-17 occurs ( as if it were describing the details of a singular moment in time ). The things described in verses 12-14 occur over a span of time that is at least 3.5 years. What is described in verses 15-17 is in alignment with ( think: 'event' timing ) Revelation 11:18; 14:17,19; 15:6-8.
If, like in some type of modern time-travel movie, you were watching the events of time unfold - in such a way that -- you saw "spot moments" in the "time stream" - but, not seeing other parts of the stream that were between the moments that you did see ----- this is the type of thing you are looking at in the description of Seal 6. In terms of "time frame", the 'details' of the description of Seal 6 are "scattered" across the 'trumpets' and the 'vials'. ( i.e. - from trumpet #1 to vial #7 )
So then -- the "assumption" is not an assumption. It is real-and-true-and-correct regarding what is being said. It is merely in alignment with the other scriptures that also refer to the same thing at the same point-in-time...
No, Paul said that "flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God." You should actually read the scriptures instead of misapplying them samuel23.
What Paul is referring to is that, no one in this mortal body, which decays and with the sinful nature, will inherit the kingdom of God. When the resurrection takes place, the bodies are raised in those immortal and glorified bodies suitable for heaven.
When Jesus was resurrected, his spirit reentered the same body that he was crucified in, but took on those immortal and glorified characteristics. Jesus ascended in that same body and sat down at the right hand of God and will be returning in that immortal and glorified body.
When the resurrection takes place, God will reanimate our bodies from the grave, but with heavenly characteristics, immortal and glorified, just like the Lord's. This is our blessed hope.
Hello Blade runner
Thanks for the reply but really you miss my point. What you have told me is the standard reply which I am quite aware of.
It doesn't really answer anything. The mechanics of it all seems odd even contrived. We die, we go to heaven, we come back,our old bodies are put back together and then they are transformed into spiritual ones. We are also told that flesh and blood cannot enter the kingdom which is why we are changed in the first place.
Thanks for the reply but really you miss my point. What you have told me is the standard reply which I am quite aware of.
It doesn't really answer anything. The mechanics of it all seems odd even contrived. We die, we go to heaven, we come back,our old bodies are put back together and then they are transformed into spiritual ones. We are also told that flesh and blood cannot enter the kingdom which is why we are changed in the first place.