The Rapture of the Church

[GaryA]

Let me suggest that God knows the location - of every electron, neutron, and proton - of every atom - of a person's body - that they had at or before the time of their death...

( And, is able to "reassemble" a person's body with those very same particles if He so wishes to do so. )

So -- whether a person may be eaten by a shark - or burn up in a fresh bed of molten lava - it makes no difference.

If every last single atom of a person's body gets separated from all of the rest - it does not matter.

God is able.

And, what God says that He will do --- He will do --- you can count on it!

Believe it!

 

[Ahwatukee]

Hello Blade runner

Thanks for the reply but really you miss my point. What you have told me is the standard reply which I am quite aware of.
It doesn't really answer anything. The mechanics of it all seems odd even contrived. We die, we go to heaven, we come back,our old bodies are put back together and then they are transformed into spiritual ones. We are also told that flesh and blood cannot enter the kingdom which is why we are changed in the first place.

Hello tanakh,

This is the easy way to understand it. When Jesus was crucified, His spirit departed from his body and his body was put in the tomb. On the morning of the first day of the week his spirit reentered his body which was transformed into an immortal and glorified body. This is exactly what is going to happen to every believer who has died in Christ from the on-set of the church until the resurrection takes place.

To be clear, if say, a believer died the day before the resurrection was to take place and his body was lying in the morgue. The next day when the resurrection takes place, his body would no longer be lying in the morgue and that because his spirit would have reentered his body and his body would have been upgraded to an immortal and glorified body like Christ's. One that would be fit to inherit the kingdom of God.

As I have previously posted, the word "anastasia" translated as "resurrection" properly means to "stand up again bodily." Jesus is our example in that, when the women went to the tomb on the morning of the first day of the week, but did not find his body and that because he was walking around in it.

God created the human body and so it is no great feat for him to reanimate it and give it immortal and glorified qualities.

 

[Hungry]

I think that when it comes to understanding the resurrection a physical recreation of our body would only serve the purpose if we were remaining in the world. Christ's body was resurrected because He still had work to do on Earth. If it was just some other body that had powers and spoke like Him they could have made arguements that the apostles stole the body and another leader took His place. It had to be the resurrected Christ to validate the prophecy. Most of our meat, and parts will be parts of other animals or organisms because that's what happens to our flesh.

Matter may be difficult for us to manipulate, as many have practiced alcamy, in attempts to turn lead into gold. I believe God uses atoms, in the same way we use binary code. It's just a negative, positive and neutral charge intelligently arranged to produce different forms. We use a one and a zero to produce complex computer programs and applications. Just as we can store, send, delete or upgrade this information, the Creator can do the same with our program. He can just upload us into a new system (New Earth).

 

[biwicks]

First of all i don't belief in in rapture ( unless my understanding is different from yours). When jesus will return to take the saints to haven every person will see him starting from Adam ..Rev 1:7 Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, and they also who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. Even so, Amen..... Also about tribulation we are all going to be there during this time that why john says Rev 7:3 saying, "Do not harm the earth, the sea, or the trees till we have sealed the servants of our God on their foreheads." so do no be lied to tribulation will come first before the second coming of Christ

 

[Crustyone]

Trials and tribulation = What believers in Christ have suffered from the on-set of the church

God's wrath = An unprecedented time of God's direct wrath after the church has been removed

Believers in Christ are not appointed to suffer wrath and therefore we cannot go through God's wrath, which begins at the opening of the first seal.

Believers in the church have been suffering tribulation and persecution from the on-set of the church until this very day, and that because we belong to Christ.

Once the church has been completed, the Lord will appear and the dead will resurrect and the living in Christ will be transformed, with the entire group going back to the Father's house, just as Jesus promised.

Once the church has been removed, then God's wrath will ensue with that ruler, the antichrist making his seven year covenant with Israel, which is represented by the rider on the white horse at the opening of the first seal, followed by the rest of the seals, the trumpets and the bowl judgments. Immediately after that, the Lord will return to the earth to end the age with those who will have previously been resurrected and caught up, as that army riding on white horses wearing fine linen, white and clean, his called, chosen and faithful followers - Rev.17:14

If believers are not to suffer, how do you reconcile Revelation 7:9-17 which says, specifically in verse 14 that believers went through the great tribulation? ([FONT=&quot]9 After this I looked, and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and before the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands.[/FONT][FONT=&quot] [/FONT][FONT=&quot]10 And they cried out in a loud voice:[/FONT][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]“Salvation belongs to our God,
who sits on the throne,
and to the Lamb.”[/FONT]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]11 All the angels were standing around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures. They fell down on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, 12 saying:[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]“Amen!
Praise and glory
and wisdom and thanks and honor
and power and strength
be to our God for ever and ever.
Amen!”[/FONT]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]13 Then one of the elders asked me, “These in white robes—who are they, and where did they come from?”[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]14 I answered, “Sir, you know.”[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]And he said, “These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15 Therefore,[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]“they are before the throne of God
and serve him day and night in his temple;
and he who sits on the throne
will shelter them with his presence.
16 ‘Never again will they hunger;
never again will they thirst.
The sun will not beat down on them,’[a]
nor any scorching heat.
17 For the Lamb at the center of the throne
will be their shepherd;
‘he will lead them to springs of living water.’[b]
‘And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes.’[c]”[/FONT]
[/FONT]

 

[Ahwatukee]

Also about tribulation we are all going to be there during this time that why john says Rev 7:3 saying, "Do not harm the earth, the sea, or the trees till we have sealed the servants of our God on their foreheads."

Jesus said that all believers through the church period would suffer trials and tribulation and that at the hands of the world and the powers of darkness. The tribulation that you are referring to above is God's coming wrath, which will be carried out via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments. Regarding God's wrath scripture says the following:

"But since we belong to the day, let us be sober, putting on faith and love as a breastplate, and the hope of salvation as a helmet. For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ." (1 Thes.5:9)

"They tell how you turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God, and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead—Jesus, who rescues us from the coming wrath." (1 Thes.1:10)

"Because you have kept the word of My patient endurance, I also will keep you out of the hour of the trial being about to come upon the whole inhabited world, to try those dwelling upon the earth." (Rev.3:10)

God's coming wrath is not the same as the tribulation that you are referring to above. It is going to decimate the majority of the earth population and dismantle all human government. This wrath will take place via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments leading up to Christ's return to the earth to end the age. It is this wrath that believers are not appointed to suffer and which Jesus says that he will keep us from.

The underlying principle is that, Jesus already took upon himself the wrath that we deserve, satisfying it. Believers have been credited with righteousness and reconciled to God and so we are not appointed to suffer God's wrath. If the church were to be sent through God's wrath, it would be as though Jesus had not suffered anything for us.

Rev 7:3 saying, "Do not harm the earth, the sea, or the trees till we have sealed the servants of our God on their foreheads.

The above is referring to the sealing of the 144,000 from the twelve tribes of Israel, not the church. The church will have already been gathered prior to the first seal being opened.

It is important to understand that the gathering of the church is a separate event from the Lord's return to the earth to end the age. One is to remove the church from the earth prior to God's wrath and the other is the return of the Lord to end the age.

Blessings in Christ!

 

[dcontroversal]

Hello DC... has been a while..... Most scholars agree that God's Wrath (Eschatological Wrath) is apparent in Revelation from Chapter 6 thru Chapter 19.

Also, the "Great Tribulation" is attributed to the last 3 1/2 years of the 7 years of tribulation as confirmed by both Daniel 9:27 and Jesus in Matthew 24:21

Thanks bro...but I will stick with the announcement made in heaven that it has actually arrived at the 7th trump....and to be honest....most scholars does not equal a right application of the word......

Most scholars teach salvation can be lost as well.....

 

[Ahwatukee]

If believers are not to suffer, how do you reconcile Revelation 7:9-17 which says, specifically in verse 14 that believers went through the great

tribulation?

Morning Crustyone,

Revelation 7:9-17 is in reference to the great tribulation saints, not the church. Previously, John was told to write letters to the seven churches. Then here in Rev.7:9-17 the elder asks John who these are in white robes and which John replies that he doesn't know who they are. The fact that the elder is asking John this question tells us that he is introducing a new group that is not the church. In fact, we are introduced to two groups in Rev.7, the 144,000 from the twelve tribes of Israel and the great tribulation saints.

In further support of this, from Rev.1 thru the end of chapter 3, only the word Ekklesia translated church is used in those chapters. Within those same chapters you will not see the word Hagios translated Saints. Likewise, from Rev.4 onward, you no longer see the word Ekklesia/Church, but only the word Hagios/Saints. The reason that we do not see the word church is because it is no longer on the earth.

Therefore, Rev.7:9-17 is referring to the great tribulation saints, which will be those Gentile believers who will become believers in Christ after the church has been gathered and who will be exposed to that time of God's wrath.

I hope that this was beneficial

 

[EarnestQ]

Please provide the scripture(s) that say that the tribulation, the wrath of God, comes before the gathering of the church?

Mt 24
2 Thess 2

 

[Ahwatukee]

Mt 24
2 Thess 2

Keep reading down a couple of verses and you will see that the Restrainer (HolySpirit), will be removed and the church with him and then the man of lawlessness will be revealed. In other words, though it appears that Paul is saying that before the gathering of the church takes place, the apostasy must come first and then the man of lawlessness is revealed and then the gathering.Those two scriptures are in opposition to each other. I will have to go with the fact that other scriptures makes it abundantly clear that believers are not appointed to suffer God's coming wrath.

 

[EarnestQ]

It is the tribulation,the resurrection,and the wrath of God,in that order.

God is giving the world 7 years to have their way,and cause all people who do not love Him to follow the beast kingdom,and when they take the mark,then they have given up their ability to repent,and they will make war against the saints,and God will take His children,then punish the world,and put an end to this sin business,which He has to eventually do that.

The ten horn kingdom will rule for the first three and one half years,and the world can still repent of their sins,which the 6 trumpets,6 disasters,happen,and warnings to the world to turn to God,but after the 6th trumpet the world will not turn to God,so He allows the beast to rule over them,and will crack down on the wicked,for they did not heed the warnings,and the ten horn kingdom failed at providing peace for the world,as the worse war in history happened,the 6th trumpet,that caused one third of the population of the world to perish,because nuclear weapons were used,and they did not turn to God,but turned to the man of sin,so God causes the world to follow the beast kingdom to end this sin business.

Rev 13:4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?
Rev 13:5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.

The beast has power to rule,and deceive all who do not love God for the last three and one half years,and cannot rule unless God allows it.

Rev 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

Dan 7:21 I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them.

Dan 7:25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

Dan 8:24 And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people.

Dan 12:7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.

Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

The beast rules for three and one half years,and is the time of the great tribulation,and the saints are given into his hands for three and one half years,and when he scatters their power,then the saints will be resurrected,then the wrath of God poured on the world.

The wrath of God is not in the tribulation,why,because God is allowing the beast to rule for three and one half years,and to deceive all who do not love Him,and to make war against the saints,and if the wrath of God was in the tribulation,then how does the beast have power to rule for three and one half years,which this power to rule can only come from God.If God is giving the beast power to rule for the three and one half years,the tribulation,He is not going to against them until the time is over.

The wrath of God is not in the tribulation,why,because who do you think the tribulation is for,it is not for the world,but it is for the saints,which will be persecution on a scale that has never been done before,for it involves the whole world.

There is nothing in the Bible that says the tribulation is 7 years long. Dan 9:27 is talking about the ministry of Christ, not anti-Christ. This has been the position of the church from the first century onward.

The 7 year concept came from the Albury prophecy conferences in the late 1820s from which John Darby, the inventor of "Dispensationalism", plagiarized it.

I am convinced that the tribulation will be 3 1/2 years long, marked at the beginning with the man of sin being revealed and ending with the gathering of the saints. Then the time of God's wrath will come upon the earth (perhaps 30 to 45 days).

 

[EarnestQ]

From the on-set of the church until this very day, believers have suffered and are suffering trial and tribulation, which Jesus said we would have in the world. This is not the wrath of God, but comes at the hands of mankind and the powers of darkness. Once the church has been gathered. then the world will enter into that time of God's wrath. That last seven years is not the wrath of man nor the wrath of Satan, for it is the fulfillment of the seventy sevens that were decreed upon Israel. During that time God will also deal with the rest of the world who have rejected His Son

I will build my church and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it.

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Gathering of the church

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Christ returns to the earth to end the age

Life as we know it.
Man of sin revealed.
3 1/2 years of Trials and Tribulations
Gathering of the Church
Wrath of God (30-45 days?)
Christ's return
Millennial Kingdom
Devil loosed for a little while
New heavens and new earth.

 

[EarnestQ]

This month I've been listening to a study on the topic of the Rapture. It is such a shame so many believers don't believe and look for His coming. Instead many are looking for the anti christ or the judgment or the tribulation. This brings no encouragement for the church. We should be looking forward for life not death.

Reading 1Thessalonians 4:13-18 encourages and comforts and builds us up in the faith in the love and provision of God in Christ. HE IS COMING FOR US!!!! Looking for His return is a wonderful way to live here.


1 Thessalonians 4:13-18Amplified Bible, Classic Edition (AMPC)

[SUP]13 [/SUP]Now also we would not have you ignorant, brethren, about those who fall asleep [[SUP][a][/SUP]in death], that you may not grieve [for them] as the rest do who have no hope [beyond the grave].
[SUP]
14 [/SUP]For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will also bring with Him through Jesus those who have fallen asleep [[SUP][b][/SUP]in death].
[SUP]
15 [/SUP]For this we declare to you by the Lord’s [own] word, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord shall in no way precede [into His presence] or have any advantage at all over those who have previously fallen asleep [in Him [SUP][c][/SUP]in death].
[SUP]
16 [/SUP]For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud cry of summons, with the shout of an archangel, and with the blast of the trumpet of God. And those who have departed this life in Christ will rise first.
[SUP]
17 [/SUP]Then we, the living ones who remain [on the earth], shall simultaneously be caught up along with [the resurrected dead] in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and so always (through the eternity of the eternities) we shall be with the Lord!
[SUP]
18 [/SUP]Therefore comfort and encourage one another with these words.


Many in the church are missing out on all this comfort and encouragement that God wants us to have as we look around at the state of this world. We are His children who have escaped the wrath to come of God because of our lovely Savior. It brings another reason and desire to worship Him in thanksgiving and praise.

It gives strength and encouragement to be reminded we do not grieve as the world does. That Jesus is actually coming for us as He descends from heaven with a shout! with the voice of the archangel and the trumpet of God!! The graves of those who died in Christ before us will open! those dead bodies will be changed given new bodies; our new resurrected bodies will be given to us too and we will fly up and gather together with those who came out of the graves before and meet them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air!!

This is going to be GREAT!!!!!!

For the last 2000 years Christians have been tortured and murdered. Why do you think the end times saints should be excused?

But my real concern is what will happen to all the believers who see the man of sin revealed and see that they have not been "Raptured". How many of them will reject their faith because they have been so deceived?

Their hope has been on the rapture to deliver them from the tribulation, just like you are teaching, not on Christ to deliver them through the tribulation.

 

[Ahwatukee]

Life as we know it.
Man of sin revealed.
3 1/2 years of Trials and Tribulations
Gathering of the Church
Wrath of God (30-45 days?)
Christ's return
Millennial Kingdom
Devil loosed for a little while
New heavens and new earth.

Wrath of God 30 to 45 days? The 5th trumpet by itself is 5 months in duration as shown below:

"They were not allowed to kill them but only to torture them for five months."

"They had tails with stingers, like scorpions, and in their tails they had power to torment people for five months."

* Life as we know it

* Church gathered

* Wrath of God via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments

* Christ returns to end the age and the church with him

* Millennial kingdom

* Satan bound

* Great white throne judgment

* New heaven, new earth, new Jerusalem

 

[EarnestQ]

By the way, Matt.24 is not referring to the church, but will involve Israel in fulfillment of the seventy 'sevens' that were decreed up them and their holy city (Dan.9:24-27) and the great tribulation saints, as well as the wicked (Dan.2:31-45, 7:25, Rev.7:9-17, 13:5-7).

John Darby was the one who came up with the idea that Mt 24 did not apply to the church but to the Jews. He did it specifically because Mt 24 clearly contradicted his Pre-trib rapture idea. The Pre-trib idea had existed several years before the misinterpretation of Mt 24. There is nothing in context that says Mt 24 does not apply to the church. Jesus was talking to his followers so the assumption is that he was talking to believers of all ages.

This can be deduced from the reference of the abomination being set up in the holy place within the temple and the desolation that takes place where the woman/Israel flees out into the wilderness where she is cared for 1260 days, which is that last 3 1/2 years (Matt.24:15-22, Rev.12:6,14)

Key word "deduced". Deduced is not a fact. It is an assumption. It is not proof that Mt 24 does not apply to the church.

 

[EarnestQ]

Postribs are so zaney.

Just a wild and zaney bunch!

They remind me of "The Three Amigos"

Hit a rare truth here and there ,but are too busy on rabbit trails to know they haphazardly stumbled onto a truth.

LOL

Respectfully, I consider this to be slanderous. I am Post-trib. You know nothing of my beliefs or background, yet you insult me like this.

Ask God if this is how you should treat those of His children with whom you disagree.

And, how much worse will it be if (when?) you find out you are mistaken about your position. ;-)

 

[popeye]

Respectfully, I consider this to be slanderous. I am Post-trib. You know nothing of my beliefs or background, yet you insult me like this.

Ask God if this is how you should treat those of His children with whom you disagree.

And, how much worse will it be if (when?) you find out you are mistaken about your position. ;-)

Are the dead raised first,before the living are gathered in 1 thes 4?

 

[popeye]

Respectfully, I consider this to be slanderous. I am Post-trib. You know nothing of my beliefs or background, yet you insult me like this.

Ask God if this is how you should treat those of His children with whom you disagree.

And, how much worse will it be if (when?) you find out you are mistaken about your position. ;-)

Oh,wow,I just read your other post,where you accuse pretribs of following Darby.

You sure you want to point fingers at me when all I am doing is following your "godly" example?

 

[Ahwatukee]

For the last 2000 years Christians have been tortured and murdered. Why do you think the end times saints should be excused?

Excuse me for jumping in. The tribulation that has been going on for 2000 years up to right now, is the trials and tribulation that Jesus said all believers would have, which comes at the hands of mankind and the powers of darkness. Those people did not suffer the wrath of God. The tribulation that is coming is the wrath of God, which believers are not appointed to suffer.

But my real concern is what will happen to all the believers who see the man of sin revealed and see that they have not been "Raptured". How many of them will reject their faith because they have been so deceived?

As a true believer in Christ, I will speak for my self: my faith is not based on when the gathering of the church takes place, but on the shed blood of Christ. From studying end-time events, I would know the antichrist the moment I saw him on the news establishing his seven year covenant with Israel. That said, If for some reason I was here to see him, I would immediately begin to pray that God would give me the strength to keep my testimony for Christ and the word and all that I knew was coming.

Does it make sense for the Lord to send his church through his wrath when the wrath that we deserve was already poured out upon him? When a person comes to Christ, they are reconciled to God and credited with righteousness. That being the case, there would be no reason for God to send us through his wrath.

Their hope has been on the rapture to deliver them from the tribulation, just like you are teaching, not on Christ to deliver them through the tribulation.

And rightly so, for Christ promised to keep believers out of the time of his wrath, which all believers should be having faith in. Instead, we have those who believe that after the Lord builds his church, that he is then going to send them through his wrath.

This coming wrath will be upon all of those who have rejected Christ and continued living according to the sinful nature, which the church will have already repented of. The on-going error is that people do not understand the severity and magnitude of God's coming wrath. The entire world will be affected. There will be no where to hide! By the time the Lord returns to the earth, the majority of the earths population will have been decimated and all the governments dismantled.

 

[EarnestQ]

Keep reading down a couple of verses and you will see that the Restrainer (HolySpirit), will be removed and the church with him and then the man of lawlessness will be revealed. In other words, though it appears that Paul is saying that before the gathering of the church takes place, the apostasy must come first and then the man of lawlessness is revealed and then the gathering.Those two scriptures are in opposition to each other. I will have to go with the fact that other scriptures makes it abundantly clear that believers are not appointed to suffer God's coming wrath.

That the church is the restrainer is an assumption not a fact. It could also be a powerful angel. It cannot be used to prove the church will be raptured. There is nothing in context of 2 Th 2 that proves the church will be raptured before the man of sin is revealed. The entire passage proves that we will see the man of sin revealed.

In fact, there is no verse anywhere that, in it's own context, proves the church will be "raptured" before the man of sin is revealed.

I used to believe in a pretrib rapture because that is what I was taught. But after studying the Bible to understand it better, I had to conclude that the Bible did not teach it. I then researched the origins and found the whole thing was invented in the late 1820s and early 1830s.

I would surely prefer the pre-trib rapture to be true, but I have to go with what the Bible teaches, not John Nelson Darby and Edward Irving.