Those Who Deny Sin in a Believer

[PeterJens]

If you have to be sinless to be saved...why does Paul address the "carnal" christians like he does in 1srt Corinthians. I think the rub I have with you Peter is that when someone steps across the line of faith you are putting a false expectation on them that they are instantly to be transformed. Sure....it works that way sometimes ...but rarely. It took me ten years to get right...and sadly...when I was struggling...if I would have seen your words in this thread then I would have lost all hope of ever being right.

The reality on the ground is that once a person becomes a disciple of Christ...it takes them an average of 7 years to get well...to get rid of the big sins in their lives. Now I don't know you...maybe you had a model upbringing where your dad perfectly modeled upright godly behavior to you. He treated you with love and kindness and built you up in your spirit. If that is you...I'm happy for you. GREAT!

That was not my experience. Mine was a minefield of confusion and disconnection. And my childhood was pretty mild compared to some. For you to tell people who are unbelievabley broken and confused that they have to be perfect.....when they've been told their whole lives that they are failures....completely and totally discounts the human side of us and that is a huge miscarriage of the gospel in my opinion.

Sirk - I did not say anything about instant transformation. I have shared about saving faith
and then discipleship and transformation, putting off the old self and putting on the new self.

And I agree there is very much a struggle and learning experience, building our house upon
the rock of Christ.

And what I personally am sharing about is that we can walk in love and righteousness, but
it takes time and faithfulness along with repentance, confession and struggles.

So I am not disagreeing with anything you described here. It is always the danger of projecting
ideas and not listening to individuals and their positions.

Some have talked about no sin, perfection or you are not save, but I am not one of them.
I am from the school the Lord will resolve this one day, going to hey, maybe the one day
is closer that I thought.

And legalism does dominate some fellowships, along with some very rules based agressive
conformist agree with us or get kicked out approaches. This is where people easily get
things confused between people. My fellowship is probably more charismatic/ scripture is
the authority, with social interpretations of meaning.

So I find this jumping to conclusion before positions have been shown a little presumptious
and not helpful to any parties.

 

[Sirk]

Well Sirk, there are many who are weak in spirit. We are not to rebuke the weakness in others, only lift them up if we can. I myself am weak in spirit looking for upliftment. Observing the way people speak to each other, it makes me feel more hopeless really. So to interject, I think it was a good thing, if we all learn something from it. I mean we can continue, but, things don't always have to become an endless continuation of the same thing. Things can change. When things change that makes us all feel stronger in spirit, that God is present, like seeing our child be born. We can turn things around. Realise that sometimes we are lost, but then we are found.

I find this to be a very fine humble post. It has a human aspect to it. There are things in life that shouldn't be spiritualized. Last time I checked.....When God made us in the garden...with brains, hearts, ears and eyes....with gifts and desires and hopes and dreams.... He said that it was good. And as far as I am concerned that included the human side of us. To over spiritualize every single thing that happens in life is an affront to what God said was also good. Jesus was 100% man. I wonder why that is? Why is that pointed out as an important part of who He was do you think? Was it a tell that he had a sense of humor, that he became sad, that he became mad..that he had hopes and dreams and activities of his own that he loved? I think it does. People need to get off their high horse and quit thinking they are all that and a can of corn....spiritually speaking. Lol

 

[Sirk]

Sirk - I did not say anything about instant transformation. I have shared about saving faith
and then discipleship and transformation, putting off the old self and putting on the new self.

And I agree there is very much a struggle and learning experience, building our house upon
the rock of Christ.

And what I personally am sharing about is that we can walk in love and righteousness, but
it takes time and faithfulness along with repentance, confession and struggles.

So I am not disagreeing with anything you described here. It is always the danger of projecting
ideas and not listening to individuals and their positions.

Some have talked about no sin, perfection or you are not save, but I am not one of them.
I am from the school the Lord will resolve this one day, going to hey, maybe the one day
is closer that I thought.

And legalism does dominate some fellowships, along with some very rules based agressive
conformist agree with us or get kicked out approaches. This is where people easily get
things confused between people. My fellowship is probably more charismatic/ scripture is
the authority, with social interpretations of meaning.

So I find this jumping to conclusion before positions have been shown a little presumptious
and not helpful to any parties.

Maybe you need to describe yourself a little better. What you have done so far comes across as smug and self righteous....at least to me.

 

[mj007]

And what was your motive when you wrote this response?

I immediately thought of verses that contradict this.......like the one below....

For many walk, of whom I often told you, and now tell you even weeping, that they are enemies of the cross of Christ,

 

[mj007]

What happens if for a moment you try observing from a perspective that he is not being smug and self-righteous? Often when we get these ideas stuck in our minds, we no longer see a person as a fellow human being. It's like when someone is deemed as crazy, anything they say appears to be crazy, right? Just a thought. When we place a sticker on someone, this is what we do to 'so-called' enemies, we are making them a 'so-called' enemy, which is the opposite of what we should try to be doing which is asking ourselves whether we can suspend these condemnations for each other and make peace, at least make peace more of a priority.

Maybe you need to describe yourself a little better. What you have done so far comes across as smug and self righteous....at least to me.

 

[PeterJens]

Sometimes it is better to just say yes or no when a question is asked, and stop hiding.

Christ took ahold of me, I am not angry.. Like I said, you do nto know me at all. so please stop trying to assume things you do not know.

EG has an anger management issue, and has had to cool down for a week if he
gets too worked up. He also introduces anger into conversations and accuses people
falsely of being angry, when it is all himself or his provocation.

So you are probably 100% correct and he will always say one knows nothing about him,
even when you know 99% of all he believes, it is his stock dismissive response.
And any advice from the other side is never welcome, you are just conversion fodder, lol.

He even admitted he was giving me a hard time because I was just like him 20 years ago,
and a little pressure and I would then convert. Not sure this is a blessing or a curse...

By the way his response will be off the wall, so I know nothing is really that coherent.
I was once congratulated for taking the heat of another brother because it was like being
hit with a jack hammer for no good reason, but without moderation, as long as it does not
get abusive or that obviously, this kind of weird conversations continue.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

What happens if for a moment you try observing from a perspective that he is not being smug and self-righteous? Often when we get these ideas stuck in our minds, we no longer see a person as a fellow human being. It's like when someone is deemed as crazy, anything they say appears to be crazy, right? Just a thought. When we place a sticker on someone, this is what we do to 'so-called' enemies, we are making them a 'so-called' enemy, which is the opposite of what we should try to be doing which is asking ourselves whether we can suspend these condemnations for each other and make peace, at least make peace more of a priority.

Many people have tried..

Same ole same ole.. eventually after weeks of trying to talk. Many came up with the same conclusion.

Your new here, You should stop assuming so much.

 

[Sirk]

What happens if for a moment you try observing from a perspective that he is not being smug and self-righteous? Often when we get these ideas stuck in our minds, we no longer see a person as a fellow human being. It's like when someone is deemed as crazy, anything they say appears to be crazy, right? Just a thought. When we place a sticker on someone, this is what we do to 'so-called' enemies, we are making them a 'so-called' enemy, which is the opposite of what we should try to be doing which is asking ourselves whether we can suspend these condemnations for each other and make peace, at least make peace more of a priority.

I like you. I like the way you say things. It comes across as very peaceable and you say it very succinctly.

Honestly...when someone tells me I have to be perfect to be at peace with God...A) I know it from experience to be a lie and B)I hate to think that someone would be turned away from Jesus because of it.

 

[PeterJens]

Maybe you need to describe yourself a little better. What you have done so far comes across as smug and self righteous....at least to me.

Sirk - let me just be a little simple. These are very brief notes. We are complete strangers
expressing some very summaried points of view. We have language and cultural differences
as well as age, education, work differences. If I come across as something, in your world that
might be what you would say about all people with my profile.

I hope you realise culture and first impression do not sum up a person, and as believers
there is much more to love and getting to know others than this. The book to kill a mocking
bird speaks to me about this very real life issue.

And through this media, do you give people the benefit of grace and love that Christ gave
you, or are you just out to put people in their place, because they deserve what is coming
to them!!!! Now if you really know the Lord, you should here what I am saying.

 

[Sirk]

Sirk - let me just be a little simple. These are very brief notes. We are complete strangers
expressing some very summaried points of view. We have language and cultural differences
as well as age, education, work differences. If I come across as something, in your world that
might be what you would say about all people with my profile.

I hope you realise culture and first impression do not sum up a person, and as believers
there is much more to love and getting to know others than this. The book to kill a mocking
bird speaks to me about this very real life issue.

And through this media, do you give people the benefit of grace and love that Christ gave
you, or are you just out to put people in their place, because they deserve what is coming
to them!!!! Now if you really know the Lord, you should here what I am saying.

I don't put myself above others. Whether they are a Christ follower or not. I am no better and no worse than anyone. What I won't stand for is abusing another persons spirit.

I had a tiff with a longtime friend a few years ago. I owned my side of it....it was a two sided deal as most all are. I went to him and I said I was sorry....I listed the thing I was sorry for doing. His response....I forgive you. I walked away feeling more defeated than before I asked for forgiveness. And why do you suppose that is? It was because he didn't even consider that he had a role to play in the breakdown of our relationship.

His "I forgive you" was tantamount too....ya...it was all your fault. Lol. I now know that most people are like that. They don't even have it in them to consider that their words and actions can be sinful or hurtful to another human being. I think it is very prideful and the funny thing is....the majority of people I see that behavior in wear the crown of Jesus on their heads.

Are they saved...ya.. I think so. Just because someone is saved doesn't mean they aren't still ignorant or prideful about their place in life.

If you wanna go on thinking you have it all figured out and that you understand God fully. Have it man. I don't think you do and I'm just saying so. That is all.

 

[PeterJens]

Opps I apologise I started to take peoples responses are real sincere contributions
and not just mind ups.

One member in the past confessed they had got hurt and had set out to hurt me.
After about a year finally we reached a point of apology. I did not know I had hurt
them, but was shocked at how agressive they were to others and their put downs so
got involved to diffuse the situation. This meant I often became the target, but I saw
this as a service rather than a loss.

I still do not understand the emotional drives many have because they are so irrational
and non-christian, but it does not seem to bother these spiritual giants, which in itself
is a contradiction.

 

[samuel23]

We are all sinners, saved sinners and lost sinners; and Jesus paid the price for all the sins in the future that I will commit, somewhere between these two lies the truth. We are not saved sinners and lost sinners, we are either saved or lost. On the other hand, to assume that I am forgiven of beating some guy half to death five years before I do it is absurd. A Christian who commits a sin needs to admit the sin to God and ask for forgiveness. We do not assume that we will sin, we believe that we will not sin, however when we do sin(and it will happen) then we need to personally ask forgiveness.

 

[mj007]

I wouldn't say that the word is to be 'perfect', but, in a way, to 'perfect' what can be better. We can always do things better, we can always progress in life rather than not move, we can always chase that idea that we have been putting off, we can always be more mindful of what we say instead of being sharp-tongued, we can always try to make the right choices more often than making the wrong choices, we can always try to be more kind than we try to be right, we can always spend more time with God in silence, than in our mind being loud or busy. And when we have an upward perspective in that sense of perfect, then I think it is moving towards God rather than the opposite.

We are constantly learning. I know I have always been learning new things about myself, and trying to accept myself completely - that's the challenge. I know I can never be perfect, but, I can always be better. And yes things can change in an instant, because perspective can change in an instant. It is creating a strong foundation in our changes which counts. Many, like myself here, come looking for fellowship or support in that challenge of being a better person. We can support and love each other, or we can poke holes in each other, but when we poke holes, we only poke holes in ourselves too.

We can only guide each other rather than force each other. What makes a good parent, is it one who is understanding and listens, accepts and loves you, and trusts you to make your own choice and mistakes? Or is it the forceful parent that tries constantly to correct you, chastise you, tell you where you are wrong, tells you who the enemy is, and confines you, stops you making mistakes - and tells you this is what love is? This is often why we all have different perspectives of God and Love.

I like you. I like the way you say things. It comes across as very peaceable and you say it very succinctly.

Honestly...when someone tells me I have to be perfect to be at peace with God...A) I know it from experience to be a lie and B)I hate to think that someone would be turned away from Jesus because of it.

 

[dcontroversal]

And what was your motive when you wrote this response?

My motive was.....I immediately thought of verses that contradict this.......
and I posted....

For many walk, of whom I often told you, and now tell you even weeping, that they are enemies of the cross of Christ,

 

[PeterJens]

If you wanna go on thinking you have it all figured out and that you understand God fully. Have it man. I don't think you do and I'm just saying so. That is all.

My heart is with you. I understand your feeling about I forgive you response.
Years ago I learnt in every situation 50% is in our control. And with more information
I would approach many things differently. And do I have it all figured out? No. But do
you know how few have it even close to begin with to talk about? Not many.

So my approach is to put out what I know and then discuss. I wrote a short book on
the subject are we born with love in our hearts as Gods image. My conclusion is yes.

But this does have an impact on the theology of original sin, and how sin itself works
through our lives, and how the cross applies to our hearts and what the debt theology
makes sense or goes too far. Now I am 57 and most of my understanding has grown
slowly, so I am generally very quiet. But what I have is very solid.

So I know how I come across may be wrong for you or others. But what God has given
me is love and humbleness. So I am sorry if I gave you the wrong impression or wound
you up, I did not mean it. If in any way I can be a blessing or serve that is where I would
like to be. God bless you, Peter

 

[samuel23]

I was reading some of the last posts. Here is something I find really strange, you post something and someone responds by telling you what you were thinking when you wrote the post, and the truth is the whole thing is in their imagination. You wonder, how could they come up with something so different then what you posted and something that never even entered into your mind?

 

[mj007]

I'm off to sleep now anyway. Have a blessed day, or blessed sleep whichever end of the day you are at!

 

[mj007]

Assumption.

I was reading some of the last posts. Here is something I find really strange, you post something and someone responds by telling you what you were thinking when you wrote the post, and the truth is the whole thing is in their imagination. You wonder, how could they come up with something so different then what you posted and something that never even entered into your mind?

 

[PeterJens]

I'm off to sleep now anyway. Have a blessed day, or blessed sleep whichever end of the day you are at!

God bless you too.

 

[PeterJens]

I was reading some of the last posts. Here is something I find really strange, you post something and someone responds by telling you what you were thinking when you wrote the post, and the truth is the whole thing is in their imagination. You wonder, how could they come up with something so different then what you posted and something that never even entered into your mind?

When I had conversations with muslims it was often extremly emotionally heated and
the ideas were not neutral. When very different mindsets read the words it triggered
totally different ideas and perspectives which were expressed in the responses.

You sometimes have to read some responses a few times to get to the core issues
being expressed and if you get the gist wrong it makes no sense at all.

I remember doing this a few weeks ago, and when I saw the point being made, I went
oh, it is quite simple but embedded in too many words so took too much effort to
unravel. lol. That is the cost of these forums ...