Death or Not Death

[buddyt]

I have read here posts from others tosay when we are judged in the end, that those who do not spendeternity with the Father still remain alive and are somewhere burningand being tormented for eternity. While I myself believe all who failto spend eternity with the Father suffer a Second death which is tosay Death of the soul. Id like to know what others have to say onthis subject.

 

[TMS]

It makes more sense that God will end sin and the source of sin rather than cause it to go on for ever. Hell (a place of eternal torment) is an invention of the Catholic church in the dark ages.

 

[TMS]

Many read Rev 20:10 and think it must be eternal torment. But i can't see a just God doing that. Look up the meaning of the word used "for ever and ever" it can mean for a time or an age. God is fair not cruel.

 

[Crustyone]

Hell may be an invention of the Catholic Church, but the Lake of Fire is in the bible, along with eternal suffering. The only question I have is will it really be forever? I say this because, first, people are not destroyed by being obliterated in the Lake of Fire, only being of no further consequence to others. Second, Paul was told not to write down what the seven thunders said, which could have been about cleansing the unsaved, and third, it is mentioned often throughout the bible that people will be cleansed by fire like gold is refined by fire, so I am wondering if this will also apply to the people in the Lake of Fire. As far as suffering forever this could only apply to the sin nature of those in the Lake of Fire and refined people would no longer be the sinners He referred to and eligible to leave the Lake of Fire. This is certainly not a fact, but only a thought. I have no thoughts about Satan, the Beast or Death.

 

[FreeNChrist]

I have read here posts from others tosay when we are judged in the end, that those who do not spendeternity with the Father still remain alive and are somewhere burningand being tormented for eternity. While I myself believe all who failto spend eternity with the Father suffer a Second death which is tosay Death of the soul. Id like to know what others have to say onthis subject.

When a person physically dies while in the state of spiritual death, still spiritually identified with "the spirit that works in the sons of disobedience" (Eph. 2:2), they will forever be spiritually united with, and share in the destiny of, the devil....in perpetual, everlasting death. That "death" is not termination, cessation or annihilationism, but is the everlasting absence of the presence of God's life in Christ Jesus. And it will be most unpleasant.

 

[Magenta]

There is nothing in the Bible to suggest that man or the soul of man is immortal aside from the life that is found through faith in the shed blood of Jesus upon the cross, where Christ paid the price for sin, which is death. In fact, Scripture explicitly says that man is mortal and puts on immortality through Christ. Scripture also explicitly says that only God is immortal, and that He can destroy both body and soul. Over and over and over again we are told that the soul that sins shall die. The dead know nothing. Anyone not found in Jesus Christ at the end of this age passes into the second death. These things are all explicitly stated, clearly said, and yet people deny them.

There are quite a few places in the Bible where forever is not
meant to be taken to mean without end. Here are a few of them:

Sodom's fiery judgment is 'eternal' (Jude 7) - until...
God 'will restore the fortunes of Sodom' (Eze. 16:53-55).

Israel's 'affliction is incurable' (Jeremiah 30:12) - until... the
Lord 'will restore health' and heal her wounds (Jeremiah 30:17).

The sin of Samaria 'is incurable' (Micah 1:9) - until...
Lord 'will restore the fortunes of Samaria.' (Ez. 16:53).

Ammon is to become a 'wasteland forever' and 'rise no more' (Zephaniah 2:9, Jeremiah 25:27) - until... the Lord will 'restore the fortunes of the Ammonites' (Jeremiah 49:6).

An Ammonite or Moabite is forbidden to enter the Lord's congregation 'forever' - until... the tenth generation (Deuteronomy 23:3).

Habakkuk tells us of mountains that were 'everlasting',
that is - until... they 'were shattered' (Habakkuk 3 3:6).

The Aaronic Priesthood was to be an 'everlasting' priesthood (Exodus 40:15), that is - until... it was superceded by the Melchizedek Priesthood (Hebrews 7:14-18).

Many translations of the Bible inform us that God would dwell in Solomon's Temple 'forever' (1 Kings 8:13), that is - until... the Temple was destroyed.

The Law of Moses was to be an 'everlasting covenant' (Leviticus 24:8), yet we read in the New Covenant the first was 'done away' and 'abolished' (2 Corinthians 3:11,13), and God 'made the first old' (Hebrews 8:13).

The fire for Israel's sin offering (of a ram without blemish) is never to be put out. It shall be a 'perpetual' - until... Christ, the Lamb of God, dies for our sins. We now have a better covenant established on better promises (Leviticus 6:12-13, Hebrews 8:6-13).

God's waves of wrath roll over Jonah 'forever' - until... the Lord delivers him from the large fish's belly on the third day (Jonah 2:6,10; 1:17).

Egypt and Elam will 'rise no more' (Jeremiah 25:27) - until... the Lord will 'restore the fortunes of Egypt' (Ezekiel 29:14) and 'restore the fortunes of Elam' (Jeremiah 49:39).

'Moab is destroyed' (Jeremiah 48:4, 42) - until... the Lord 'will restore the fortunes of Moab' (Jeremiah 48:47).

Israel's judgment lasts 'forever' - until... the Spirit is poured out and God restores it (Isaiah 32:13-15).

The King James Bible, as well as many others, tells us that a bondslave was to serve his master 'forever' (Exodus 21:6), that is - until... his death." http://www.thepathoftruth.com/teachings/restitution/meaningforever.htm

 

[Magenta]

Another problem is with the way people present things. As Christians we should take care to use the correct terminology, but many people do not, falling into talking the way the world does, the world that is in darkness and ignorant of Christ and Scriptures. People talk about going to heaven or the fiery torments of hell immediately following death, and speak of heaven as our eternal living place, when Scriptures make clear that we who escape the second death via faith in Christ's propitiatory sacrifice on our behalf due to His great love for us, live our ever after lives on a restored Earth, and that hell is the grave, which is simply a holding place of the dead until the resurrection and final judgement of all, after which hell gets thrown into the lake of fire, as does death.

 

[resurrection33]

I have read here posts from others tosay when we are judged in the end, that those who do not spendeternity with the Father still remain alive and are somewhere burningand being tormented for eternity. While I myself believe all who failto spend eternity with the Father suffer a Second death which is tosay Death of the soul. Id like to know what others have to say onthis subject.

I believe that when we repent of our sin, the Lord forgives us. That will be true forever and ever and ever. Up until that point, we are in danger of experiencing the consequences of our sin.

 

[samuel23]

Even if the lake of fire is the end for humans we still have to contend with hell that is a place of torment for those who die without Christ.

 

[MadebyHim]

all have life after death, just not all in same place.

Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. Revelation 2:14

 

[Magenta]

For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not be tortured and tormented in a fiery burning hell forever after, but have eternal life?
NO.

For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that
whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

Perish = word 622 in Strong's Concordance.

Strong's Concordance

apollumi: to destroy, destroy utterly​

​

Original Word: ἀπόλλυμι
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: apollumi
Phonetic Spelling: (ap-ol'-loo-mee)
Short Definition: I destroy, lose, am perishing
Definition: (a) I kill, destroy, (b) I lose, mid: I am perishing
(the resultant death being viewed as certain).

HELPS Word-studies
622 apóllymi (from 575 /apó, "away from," which intensifies ollymi, "to destroy") – properly, fully destroy, cutting off entirely (note the force of the prefix, 575 /apó).

622 /apóllymi ("violently/completely perish") implies permanent (absolute) destruction, i.e. to cancel out (remove); "to die, with the implication of ruin and destruction" (L & N, 1, 23.106); cause to be lost (utterly perish) by experiencing a miserable end.

 

[Locutus]

Hell is mistranslated - the Greek is Hades.

The lake of fire is not what most people think it is.

 

[Magenta]

Hell is mistranslated - the Greek is Hades.

The lake of fire is not what most people think it is.

Hell is used in place of four different words, maybe five: Hades, Gehenna, Sheol, Tartaros.

THE word "hell" occurs in our common version 54 times, 31 in the Old Testament and 23 in the New. It is a translation of 4 different words in the original, one (Sheol) in the Old, and three (Hades, Gehenna, Tartaros) in the New.

The last, Tartaros, occurs but once (2 Pet. 2:4).

Gehenna appears 12 times, it is always translated "hell," and it is always connected with burning and corruption.

Sheol and Hades, the other two, are synonymous terms, as will be demonstrated, and altogether occur 76 times. 41 times they are translated hell, 32 times grave, and 3 times pit.

While Sheol, Hades and Tartaros refer to the same place or state, Gehenna is entirely different in meaning.

************************************

SHEOL is a term for the place of the dead in general, and for this reason "hell" in its original and uncorrupted meaning is a better word for sheol than "grave" is.

"Grave" primarily means the specific place of a particular corpse or corpses. The Hebrew for this is geber, as --

• "My grave (geber) which I digged for me" (Gen. 50:5).
  "The king wept at the grave (geber) of Abner" (2 Sam. 3:32).

On the other hand, sheol in the Hebrew and "hell" in its primary meaning are general terms as (Psa. 6:5) --

• "In the grave (sheol) who shall give Thee thanks?"
  "Hell (sheol) and destruction are never full" (Prov. 27:20).

However, while "grave" used as a general term will well fit all passages where sheol occurs, "hell" in the popular sense would be absurd in some places and would immediately reveal the popular error. For example, where Jacob says (Gen. 37:35) --

• "I will go down into sheol unto my son mourning."

And where Job says (14:13) --

• "O that Thou wouldest hide me in sheol."

It is not to be supposed that either Jacob or Job anticipated or hoped to go to eternal torment.

In all the 65 places where sheol is found, there is not one that gives any countenance to the idea of a place of burning torment of the damned. It is always in the sense of the general hidden state of the dead -- all the dead -- good and bad alike.

And not only is sheol used as the resting place of all the dead indiscriminately, but we have specific mention of righteousness and approved men going there and expecting to go there.

We have seen this of Jacob and Job. Also David (Psa. 88:3), Hezekiah (Isa. 38:10), Christ (Psa. 16:10; Acts 2:31; 3:15), and all the faithful (compare Hos. 13:14 with 1 Cor. 15:54-56).

Sheol is a place of silence --

• "Let the wicked be ashamed, and let them be silent in Sheol" (Psa. 31:17).
  
  "The dead praise not the Lord, neither any that go down into silence" (Psa. 115:17).

There is no remembrance there (Psa. 6:5) --

• "In death there is no remembrance of Thee, in Sheol who shall give Thee thanks?"

Sheol is "in the dust" and there we "rest together" "in darkness" (Job 17:13-16). Beauty is consumed there (Psa. 49:14). There is no work or knowledge there --

• "There is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in Sheol whither thou goest" (Ecc. 9:10).

It is dark there, and is called the "land of forgetfulness," and "destruction" --

• "Wilt Thou show wonders to the dead? Shall the dead arise and praise Thee?"
  
  "Shall Thy loving kindness be declared in Sheol? Or Thy faithfulness in destruction?"
  
  "Shall Thy wonders be known in the dark? And Thy righteousness in the land of forgetfulness?" (Psa. 88:10-12).
• ​

The "mighty" are spoken of as lying there with "their swords under their heads" (Eze. 32:27). This is a clear reference to the ancient custom of burying warriors in their graves with their weapons of war, but quite at variance with the traditional hell of torment.

 

[Magenta]

And what we are told elsewhere concerning the state of the dead fully harmonizes with what we have learned about sheol. Death is always associated with oblivion, corruption, dissolution, returning to the dust, passing away as a shadow, the end of thought, knowledge, activity or memory.

Consider what Job says of the state of the dead and see how IMPOSSIBLE it is to harmonize with it the tradition of reward or punishment at death --

"But man dieth and wasteth away: yea, man giveth up the ghost (gava -- expires), and where is he?

As the waters fail from the sea, and the flood decayeth and drieth up: so man lieth down and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their SLEEP" (Job 14:10-15).

Where is heavenly bliss or torment? He continues --

• "O that Thou wouldest hide me in sheol, that Thou wouldest keep me secret, until Thy wrath be passed, that Thou wouldest appoint me a set time and remember me!"

In his affliction, he looked forward to the unconscious, peaceful rest in sheol until the day of resurrection and judgment. He had no illusions about sheol or hell being a place of fiery torment. He knew that there the wicked cease from troubling and the weary are at rest, they lie still and are quiet together, for he says (Job 3:11-19) --

• "Why died I not from the womb? why did I not expire (gava) when I came out of the belly? Why did the knees prevent me? or why the breasts that I should suck?
  "For now should I have lain still and been quiet, I should have slept: then had I been at rest, with kings and counsellors of the earth, which built desolate places for themselves: or with princes that had gold, who filled their houses with silver:
  "Or as an hidden untimely birth I had not been: as infants which never saw light.
  "There the wicked cease from troubling and there the weary be at rest. There the prisoners rest together; they hear not the voice of the oppressor. The small and great are there; and the servant is free from his master."

Such is the great silent congregation of the dead, all together in one sleeping host: kings, counsellors, princes, still-born infants, the wicked, the weary, the prisoners, the small, the great, the servant and master. And of them all the preacher says (Eccl. 9:5) --

• "The living know that they shall die, but THE DEAD KNOW NOT ANYTHING."
  "In death there is no remembrance of Thee (Psa. 6:5).
  "The dead praise not the Lord, neither any that go down into silence" (Psa. 115:17).

http://www.bereanchristadelphian.com/FirstPrn/hell.htm

 

[JesusLives]

I have read here posts from others tosay when we are judged in the end, that those who do not spendeternity with the Father still remain alive and are somewhere burningand being tormented for eternity. While I myself believe all who failto spend eternity with the Father suffer a Second death which is tosay Death of the soul. Id like to know what others have to say onthis subject.

I agree with you in what the Bible says is that the wages of sin is death and not eternal torment and burning.... There will be a lake of fire at the end to purify the earth and destroy satan and the wicked but when the fuel is burned up the fire goes out. The wages of sin is death.

 

[Bladerunner]

I have read here posts from others to say when we are judged in the end, that those who do not spend eternity with the Father still remain alive and are somewhere burning and being tormented for eternity. While I myself believe all who fail to spend eternity with the Father suffer a Second death which is to say Death of the soul. Id like to know what others have to say on this subject.

Revelation tells just that. Rev. 21-22........ You will have good neighbors though.....Satan, the antichrist and the false prophet.
OH what stories you four could tell.

Concerning you statement above in the Blue, Yes they will suffer a 2nd death.... Rem the resurrection will also raise the dead from their graves, re-unite their souls (from the Abussos) with their bodies and then changed into eternal beings. They are given judgement and it the word is bad then it will be an eternity will be in torment.

 

[Issachar92]

Another problem is with the way people present things. As Christians we should take care to use the correct terminology, but many people do not, falling into talking the way the world does, the world that is in darkness and ignorant of Christ and Scriptures. People talk about going to heaven or the fiery torments of hell immediately following death, and speak of heaven as our eternal living place, when Scriptures make clear that we who escape the second death via faith in Christ's propitiatory sacrifice on our behalf due to His great love for us, live our ever after lives on a restored Earth, and that hell is the grave, which is simply a holding place of the dead until the resurrection and final judgement of all, after which hell gets thrown into the lake of fire, as does death.

This 100% !!! i have been saying the same thing i gave you rep and like for this
AMAZING we let the world dictate our language often times, lets not fall into our own shoelaces here

 

[Magenta]

This 100% !!! i have been saying the same thing i gave you rep and like for this
AMAZING we let the world dictate our language often times, lets not fall into our own shoelaces here

Thank you Hopefully we are all learning and growing in the goodness and grace of Christ

 

[Magenta]

As to any part of man continuing in consciousness after
death, the Scriptures rule out any such theory.

All the terms that are used in Hebrew to define the element of life or spirit
or breath in man are similarly employed with respect to animals --

Nephesh -- "soul, life, body, or person" ;
Chayiah -- life abstractly considered" ;
Nephesh chayiah -- "living soul or creatures" ;
Ruach -- "breath or spirit" ; and
Neshamah -- "breath."

All these terms are applied to animals just as to man. And of both the preacher says (Eccl. 3:19) --

• "For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts . . . as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath (ruach)."

And what is "death" in the one case is "death" in the other -- the opposite of life, the absence of all life, and of all the things that make up life -- vitality, action, knowledge, sensation, emotion, consciousness.

Death is darkness, silence, forgetfulness, corruption, dissolution, smoke, ashes, dust, oblivion --

• "All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again."

All through the Scriptures the picture is the same --

• "Man goeth to his long home, the mourners go about the streets . . . then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit (ruach -- breath) shall return unto God Who gave it" (Eccl. 12:5-7).
  "His breath (same word -- ruach) goeth forth, he returneth to his earth: in that very day his thoughts perish" (Psa. 146:4).
  "Thou takest away their breath (ruach) they (the animals -- see context) die, and return to their dust" (Psa. 104:29).

We know the common, simple meaning of death. We use the word without any difficulty, and we use it of animals just the same as of humans.

Again Paul, when comforting the Thessalonians concerning those who had died, does not say that they are in heaven in bliss and full consciousness as all the clergy tell us, and that the living will go soon to join them there.

He never mentions anything like this, strangely enough, but he says, on the very CONTRARY (1 Thess. 4:13-18), that the dead in Christ are ASLEEP, and that at the coming of Christ they will arise from that condition to join the living in his presence.

And many times we find Jesus, Paul, and others in Scripture, speaking of the dead as being asleep, and not only just asleep, but "asleep in the dust of the earth" (Dan. 12:2). How can this possibly be if they are wide awake in heaven or even wider awake in hell?

 

[Magenta]

DEATH, NOT TORTURE, IS THE PUNISHMENT OF SIN

Such is death, and the Scriptures declare repeatedly that it is death that is the great penalty for sin. Right from the beginning, death is the sentence, and the wording of that sentence as originally given shows clearly what is meant. God said to Adam as a consequence of his disobedience (Gen. 2:17) --

• "Thou shalt surely DIE."

There was no threatened eternal torment, but on the contrary Adam was told (Gen. 3:19) -

• "In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou RETURN UNTO THE GROUND: for out of it wast thou taken: for DUST THOU ART AND UNTO DUST SHALT THOU RETURN."

Paul says, commenting upon the Adamic sentence (Rom. 6:23) --

• "The wages of sin is death."
  "By one man’s offence death reigned" (Rom 5:17).

And Rom. 6:21 --

• "The end of those things (the works of the flesh) is death."

-- not eternal living torment, but DEATH.

• "Sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth DEATH" (James 1:15).

The penalty of death and destruction is both just and merciful, the penalty of eternal torture is neither just nor merciful.

​

THE WICKED DESTROYED, NOT TORTURED

Death, we have seen, is oblivion and destruction, and death is the wages of sin. The term "DESTROY" is often used of the fate of the wicked. After the "few or many stripes" of chastisement, the end of all is destruction.

The popular conception leaves no room for few or many stripes, for it sweepingly gives all the full maximum penalty possible, eternal agony in hell, millions and millions and millions and millions of years for the sins of so brief a lifetime, and this for the overwhelming majority of mankind, for Jesus says (Matt. 7:13) --

• "Broad is the way that leadeth to destruction, and MANY there be which go in thereat.
  "And narrow is the way that leadeth unto life, and FEW there be that find it."

But here again we note that in the Bible it is not eternal torment that is threatened but destruction, which is something very different.

In Matt. 25:46, Jesus says the wicked "go into everlasting punishment," and what this everlasting punishment consists of is explained by Paul (2 Thess. 1:7-9) where he says that when Jesus shall be revealed from heaven, the wicked shall be "punished with everlasting destruction." Again (Heb. 10:27) --

• "Judgment and fiery indignation shall devour the adversary."

Jesus says (Matt. 10:28) that God is able to --

• "DESTROY both soul and body in Gehenna."

And Paul told the Philippians (3:19) regarding the fleshly-minded --

• "Their end is destruction."

Peter uses as strong a word as possible when he says (2 Pet. 2:12) --

• "These, as natural brute beasts . . . shall utterly perish in their own corruption."

David declares (Psa. 37:20) --

• "The wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the Lord shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away."

And Malachi 4:1 --

• "For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch."

Psalm 145:20 --

• "The Lord preserveth all them that love Him, but all the wicked will He destroy."

​

THE PUNISHMENT OF THE WICKED IS FUTURE

It will have been noted from many of the foregoing quotations that the judgment and punishment of the wicked is connected with a special day IN THE FUTURE, when Christ will return from heaven.

This is important, for it clearly demonstrates the error of the conception of immediate reward or punishment at death. In Matt. 16:27, Jesus says --

• "For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father, with his angels, THEN shall he reward every man according to his works."

He says in John 5:27-29 --

• "The Father hath given him (Jesus) authority to execute judgment . . . for the hour is coming in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, and shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of condemnation."

Paul declares (2 Tim. 4:1) --

• "He SHALL judge the quick and the dead AT HIS APPEARING and his kingdom."

And again (1 Cor. 4:5) --

• "Judge nothing before the time, UNTIL THE LORD COME, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and THEN shall every man have praise of God."

And Peter (2 Pet. 3:7) speaks of a FUTURE --

• "Day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men."

The word here translated "perdition" is many times translated "destruction." The future aspect of this judgment, the fact that it is always connected with the day appointed when Jesus will return from heaven to judge and destroy, should be well noted throughout. Paul says (Acts 17:31) --

• "God hath appointed a day in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained."

Malachi says of the same day, and of the destiny of the wicked (4:1-3) --

• "For, behold, the day COMETH, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.
  
  The wicked . . . shall be ashes under the soles of the feet of the righteous IN THE DAY that I shall do this, saith the Lord."

Not eternal torture at death, but complete burning destruction in the day of judgment is the consistent scriptural picture.

One of the biggest inconsistencies of the popular belief is that fact that resurrection and judgment at the last day must be either flatly denied, or else it comes after centuries of bliss in heaven or torture in hell.

Where is the necessity or reason for either resurrection or judgment at the return of Christ if the dead go to their reward at death? It would not only be unnecessary -- it would be plain absurdity!

​

RESURRECTION

Scriptures say there will be a resurrection, and that it is necessary. We find the day of judgment always associated with resurrection of the dead, and we find resurrection from the grave held out as the only hope of life after death.

Paul devoted 1st Cor. 15 to refuting the contention that there will be no resurrection. He says (vs. 16-18) --

• "If the dead rise not . . . then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished."

And in v. 32, after describing the perils he encounters, he says --

• "What advantageth it me, if the dead rise not?"

His argument is meaningless if men go to heaven at death for their reward. But Paul’s whole hope of reward was centered in resurrection of the last day, as he says in Phil. 3:8-11 --

• "I count all things but loss . . . I have suffered the loss of all things . . . if by any means I might attain unto the RESURRECTION OF THE DEAD."

Jesus said (John 6:39) that all those whom the Father had given him he would --

• "Raise up at the last day."

And in Luke 14:14, he declares that the righteous --

• "Shall be recompensed AT THE RESURRECTION OF THE JUST."

And nowhere do we find either reward or punishment promised before then.

http://www.bereanchristadelphian.com/FirstPrn/hell.htm

​