Those Who Deny Sin in a Believer

[eternally-gratefull]

and also, God is not going to care if you really, strongly, emotionally , FEEL that your defective car is pure and clean. facts, not feelings, determine reality.

Which explains why you have to attack, Defend and blame shift when people call you out on what you are preaching, Because it is feelings based.

If it is Faith based, There is no need to attack, Defend and blameshift (although we can defend)

 

[zone]

The power of Christ is love, expressed through the cross

Love is the spring of living water that comes from within and never stops.
It is this love that empowers the fulfillment of the law, through loving our neighbour.

Those who do not see this, or experience it, find this reality hard to grasp.
Their hearts are tightly defended and they accuse those who know this love to be
swayed only by emotion and not facts. The facts are Christ has saved them, and
loved them, and they are as they are, saved but still sinning.

I know this world because it is the world of religion, belief that overcomes the failure
of behaviour or emotional blocks to do what one wants, but repeating situations one
does not want. It always leads to hypocracy and appearing to be one thing while being
another. You really do need Christ at a heart level.

It is why the Lord expects real heartfelt repentance, to the depths of our beings.
It is the hardest thing any person can ever do, and everything within us fights against
it, pride, anger, hurt, pain, mind, soul, body. But it is the way of salvation.

pop psychology peter

 

[wsblind]

Our state at birth means we inherit this rebellion.

Exactly, we didn't sin at birth, we inherited sin or sin was imputed to our account..So,even so, through the Obedience of Christ we will inherit His righteousness at our Spiritual birth.

 

[PeterJens]

pop psychology peter

Zone - So you are not a hurt defended individual who has issues that you do not touch?

Did you come to Christ with an open heart and loving spirit, and wondered why you had
not seen it before? I have witnessed to people like this.

 

[zone]

Zone - So you are not a hurt defended individual who has issues that you do not touch?.

I "touch" all my issues. I'm very self-aware.

Did you come to Christ with an open heart and loving spirit, and wondered why you had
not seen it before? I have witnessed to people like this.

I don't get what you're asking.

 

[PeterJens]

Our state at birth means we inherit this rebellion.

Exactly, we didn't sin at birth, we inherited sin or sin was imputed to our account..So,even so, through the Obedience of Christ we will inherit His righteousness at our Spiritual birth.

This is where you are for me putting theology into life.
When we are separate from God we sin. The separation is sin in and of itself, because it
is a rejection of our Lord and King. We make a mistake that if people knew God existed
they would accept Him, but rather there automatic reaction is the opposite, blame, rejection
and suspicion. Sin occurs because we would rather harm for our ends than comply, because
we are the focus and nothing else.

So there is no innocent person upon which sin is imputed, we are guilty by our position before
the Lord. Unless we repent and humble ourselves there is no reconciliation.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

This is where you are for me putting theology into life.
When we are separate from God we sin. The separation is sin in and of itself, because it
is a rejection of our Lord and King. We make a mistake that if people knew God existed
they would accept Him, but rather there automatic reaction is the opposite, blame, rejection
and suspicion. Sin occurs because we would rather harm for our ends than comply, because
we are the focus and nothing else.

So there is no innocent person upon which sin is imputed, we are guilty by our position before
the Lord. Unless we repent and humble ourselves there is no reconciliation.

The bible states, In adam all die. You were born Dead to God. You were not born alive to God then when you committed your first sin you died.

 

[PeterJens]

I "touch" all my issues. I'm very self-aware.
I don't get what you're asking.

Walking with Christ is about admiting our need and accepting His nature and help through
repentance.

People who are very open and self aware often have less problems seeing and accepting
Christ. So I was wondering if that was you?

 

[PeterJens]

The bible states, In adam all die. You were born Dead to God. You were not born alive to God then when you committed your first sin you died.

But I am saying we are born dead to God, separate, alone, in rebellion, an independant
individual with their own defences and God is very much on the outside. This is sin
from the beginning, an act or state of separation.

John the Baptist was born in fellowship with God, so was not like us.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

But I am saying we are born dead to God, separate, alone, in rebellion, an independant
individual with their own defences and God is very much on the outside. This is sin
from the beginning, an act or state of separation.

John the Baptist was born in fellowship with God, so was not like us.

Your right, A baby who leaves his mothers womb, before he even starts crying is dead to God, Because they are IN ADAM. which means Adams sin was imputed to you and I at birth before we committed 1 sin.

John the baptist is a special case. in a special time.. he had a purpose to serve from birth. He still needed a savior.

 

[PeterJens]

Your right, A baby who leaves his mothers womb, before he even starts crying is dead to God, Because they are IN ADAM. which means Adams sin was imputed to you and I at birth before we committed 1 sin.

John the baptist is a special case. in a special time.. he had a purpose to serve from birth. He still needed a savior.

This is where I am saying something different.

People are not innocent and sin is imputed to them, we are sinners, in a sinful state because
we are separate from communion with God. That is a sinful state.

This is why when we are in communion with God, in relationship, in faith it is reconned as righteousness.

Without Gods love in our hearts no matter how well we behave we are commiting sin, we are in
rebellion, we have rejected God. The act of rejecting God is sinful.

There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; the very words I have spoken will condemn them at the last day.
John 12:48

 

[wsblind]

This is where I am saying something different.

People are not innocent and sin is imputed to them,

Correct. Sin was imputed to us through one man. And In the same way, righteousness will be imputed to us through one Man.

We did nothing at birth to be a sinner. We were born sinners. We did nothing at our spiritual birth to be righteous, we were born again with His righteousness.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

This is where I am saying something different.

People are not innocent and sin is imputed to them, we are sinners, in a sinful state because
we are separate from communion with God. That is a sinful state.

Your in that sinful state BECAUSE of Adam..His sin imputed to us

This is why when we are in communion with God, in relationship, in faith it is reconned as righteousness.

It is reconned as righteousness because we are IN CHRIST (His righteousness imputed to us)

Without Gods love in our hearts no matter how well we behave we are commiting sin, we are in
rebellion, we have rejected God. The act of rejecting God is sinful.

Yes,, Thats why a born again child can do righteous works, But that does not mean he will chose to love as God loved. Failure to do so is sin..

There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; the very words I have spoken will condemn them at the last day.
John 12:48

Yes, And what Did Jesus say, who is condemned, and who is not? And why?

 

[PeterJens]

Your in that sinful state BECAUSE of Adam..His sin imputed to us

Now all I am suggesting is your imputed ideas are not right, but the result
is the same, and these really matter.

As sinners convicted of sin, we obviously feel rejected by God.
But as we walk closer to His image and character, more and more of our lives
become a reflection of His will.

It then becomes clearer that our sin is the result of the separation, and when
we are born apart from God, we are born without communion.

What complicates this is being deemed holy through the believing parent.
So as a child before we reach the age of majority, we are deemed saved,
destined for glory.

If we walk away from God then we loose this salvation or communion.
So it is not a simple idea of imputed sin from adam, because then
children of believers have no grace if they die before the reach the
age of responsibility.

This might also explain why conviction of sin and spiritual conversion
experiences in young children in believing families is literally different from
first time believers who come to faith after this time or do not have believing
parents.

 

[wsblind]

If we walk away from God then we loose this salvation or communion.
So it is not a simple idea of imputed sin from adam, because then
children of believers have no grace if they die before the reach the
age of responsibility.

That is the hidden beauty or blessing in disguise of having sin imputed to us through one man.

God alone condemns us at birth, before we overtly sin. through Adams sin. So everybody is 'safe' before the age of accountability and those who will never have the mental capacity to understand the Gospel and believe. He can and will save ALL of those people without impugning His Justice.

But when we become aware of the law and our sin, and have the mental capacity to understand the Gospel we are held responsible for receiving or rejecting His Cross.

 

[PeterJens]

and also, God is not going to care if you really, strongly, emotionally , FEEL that your defective car is pure and clean. facts, not feelings, determine reality.

These words appear plain to me now.
Ofcourse the fact is we do not change, we are what we are, and just feeling we
are pure and clean are not facts.

But read scripture. The apostles said their consciences where clean, their hearts
were purified and the reality had arrived.

What the language from gb9 says for him it has not happened and for all those
who agree with him.

We can only testify to our own experience, belief or lack of belief, experience or
lack of experience.

It is like healing. Someone can be healed, and only those who know them can
say yes it happened or no it did not and sometimes only the person themselves.

But this does not deny its reality or otherwise.

Now I have been in many churches and I would testify this emotional sense of a lack
of experience is the most common, but that does not make it Gods reality or intention.

So here is the point, people claim a lot in Christ without walking in it, and do not stop
to wonder why. That is my point. No wonder the church seems without power or
reality if this is even here on cc the lack of experience which is being shared so
forcefully.

 

[gb9]

These words appear plain to me now.
Ofcourse the fact is we do not change, we are what we are, and just feeling we
are pure and clean are not facts.

But read scripture. The apostles said their consciences where clean, their hearts
were purified and the reality had arrived.

What the language from gb9 says for him it has not happened and for all those
who agree with him.

We can only testify to our own experience, belief or lack of belief, experience or
lack of experience.

It is like healing. Someone can be healed, and only those who know them can
say yes it happened or no it did not and sometimes only the person themselves.

But this does not deny its reality or otherwise.

Now I have been in many churches and I would testify this emotional sense of a lack
of experience is the most common, but that does not make it Gods reality or intention.

So here is the point, people claim a lot in Christ without walking in it, and do not stop
to wonder why. That is my point. No wonder the church seems without power or
reality if this is even here on cc the lack of experience which is being shared so
forcefully.

2nd paragraph. peterjens wrote that.

Paul said, in Philippians 3-12 " not that I have already obtained all this or have already arrived at my goal but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me" .

another peterjens fail.

 

[zone]

who says the church is without power? that's quite a charge to make against Christ's beloved.
just because some people are lone rangers doesn't mean the church is ineffective.

 

[Yahshua]

Romans 5:12
Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:


1 Corinthians 15:55-56
55“Where, O death, is your victory? Where, O death, is your sting?” The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the Law.


Death is what passed to all men from Adam, not his sin. Adam's sin wasn't passed to us, but his judgment (i.e. death)...and because all men die, they sin.


Adam's Life Begins...

1. Adam sins...

2. Adam's body is judged to die as payment for sin

3. This includes all seeds in Adam (they're part of his body too)

4. We were seeds in Adam's body

5. We are born with a countdown towards our death (we feel our mortality)

6. "FOR THAT" reason, we sin (born out of selfishness, hate, fear, etc)...

7. So then next, *our* body is judged to die as payment for Adam's sin AND our sin

8. This includes all seeds in our body (they're part of our body too)

9. Our children were seeds in our body

10. They are born with a quicker countdown towards their death (they feel their mortality)

11. "FOR THAT" reason, they sin even more (born out of selfishness, hate, fear etc)...

12. So then *they're* deserving of death as payment for Adam's sin AND their sin...

...and the cycle goes on and on until all die. Satan, the murderer of all from the beginning...creating the prison/bondage that all experience; the law of "sin & death". But HalleluYAH, God loved us so much that he gave his son, who did not sin, to die for us...


1 Corinthians 15:57
57 But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ!


Christ's life begins

1. Adam sins...

2. Adam's body is judged to die as payment for sin

3. This includes all seeds in Adam (they're part of his body too)

4. Christ was a seed in Adam's body (but was also a seed of the Spirit of God)

5. Christ was born with a countdown towards his death

6. "HOWEVER" full of the grace of God he did not sin all of his life

7. So Christ's body is judged to die as payment for Adam's sin AND our sin (1 John 1:8)

*BUT AFTER DEATH HE ALSO HAD THE RIGHT TO TAKE BACK HIS LIFE BECAUSE HE WAS SINLESS. PRAISE YOU, GOD!* The LAW of sin & death BROKEN and replaced with the law of spirit & life!


Our New Life begins...

1. The risen Christ never sins...

2. Christ's body is NOT judged to die, but to have everlasting life

3. This includes all seeds in Christ (they're part of his body too)

4. BY FAITH, anyone who believes are seeds in Christ's body

5. BY FAITH, anyone who believes is born again/anew with NO countdown towards their death

6. "FOR THAT" reason, they DO NOT have to sin **anymore** . They are set free from its bondage, indeed. They are now clean like newborns...

But if they do stumble and sin in the *future* they MUST immediately confess their *new* sin and repent from it to be forgiven/washed (1 John 1:9) to return to Christ's body BY FAITH. Else their *new* sins will pile up and thrust them outside of Christ's resurrected body, because Christ's resurrected body knows no sin (and will never know any sin). Only Adam's body knows sin. The scriptures CAN NOT be broken; Christ was/is/will be sinless.

If confession and repentance does not happen for those *new* sins that person is eventually removed from Christ's body (because again Christ is sinless); and they're returned to Adam's body by default, and once returned to Adam's body they're subject to his judgment/prison of sin & death, sin & death, sinning more and more and deserving to die more and more.

1 John 3:9
Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remains in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever does not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loves not his brother.

 

[Rockrz]

"My grace is sufficient." -- God

That sums it up for me.

Yes, and God also gave us 1 John 1:9 as well as a few more that are equally as true as God's grace being sufficient...

[FONT=&quot]Titus 2:11-15 [/FONT][FONT=&quot](Biblical definition of Grace)[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men[/FONT][FONT=&quot] (see Acts 2:17, Romans 1:20)
Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;
Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Savior Jesus Christ;
Who gave Himself for us, that He might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.
These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee.

[/FONT][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]Jude 1:4,5[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.
I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not. (also see Hebrews 3:7-13)

[/FONT][/FONT][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]1 John 1:6-10[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
If we say that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:
But if we walk in the light, as He is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanses us from all sin.
If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and his word is not in us.

[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]And, for those that claim Jesus only taught law to the Jews
and His teachings before the Cross are not for us today...

[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Luke 16:16[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
The law and the prophets were until John (the Baptist): since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presses into it.

Romans 6:15,16
What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?[/FONT]
[/FONT]
[/FONT][/FONT][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]Matthew 7:17-20[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
Even so every good tree brings forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree brings forth evil fruit.
A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
Every tree that brings not forth good fruit is cut down, and cast into the fire.
Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot] [FONT=&quot]Matthew 7:21-24 [/FONT][FONT=&quot]( [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Jesus warns of DANGER![/FONT][FONT=&quot] )[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity[/FONT][FONT=&quot].[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock

[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]*Iniquity = in opposition to God's ways (unrighteousness), transgressor, wickedness (Strong's G0458, G0459)...
*Iniquity = Refusing to allow the Holy Spirit to lead you (Romans 8:14), and correct you (Hebrews 12:5)
*Jesus does not say these works were not done with and by the power of God...

[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]Matthew 7:19[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
Every tree that brings not forth good fruit is cut down, and cast into the fire.

[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot] [FONT=&quot]John 8:31,32[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

*Only if we CONTINUE in God’s Word, we know the truth and the truth makes us free!
*If we decide not to CONTINUE in God’s Word, we will not know the truth and the truth will not make us makes us free! (know = become one with, to walk in agreement with… not giving lip service, and ignoring the Word)

James 1:22-25 (Companion to John 8:31,32)[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]But you be doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass:[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]For he sees himself, and goes his way, and straightway forgets what manner of man he was.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]But whoso looks into the perfect law of liberty, and continues therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.

[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][FONT=&quot]1 Corinthians 11:26-32[/FONT][FONT=&quot] (taking communion and judging ourselves)
For as often as you eat this bread, and drink this cup, you do show the Lord's death till he come.
Therefore whoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.
But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup.
For he that eats and drinks unworthily, eats and drinks damnation to himself, not understanding the Lord's body.
For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.
For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged.
But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world.

[/FONT][FONT=&quot]*Apparently, it is possible for Christians to be condemned with the world, if we do not judge ourselves to seek and receive the Lord’s correction which is the continual leading of the Holy Spirit… and we take communion unworthily before the Lord which is why some are sick and why some die.

[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
Yes, there are lots of instructions in God's Word that most modern day preachers ignore altogether and would claim are not speaking to Christians today if someone brings some of these up.

I've found that God's correction is wonderful as His continually leads me to quit thinking / acting like this world thinks and acts towards walking in agreement with Him which is walking in the Spirit not the flesh as it is His desires to live in me and walk in me (2 Corinthians 6:16) which is the primary purpose of our existence is to actually walk with the Lord and not be friends of the world which makes us enemies of God (James 4:4, 2 Corinthians 6:17).

Lots and lots of stuff on why it's error to believe Christians can live like the world walking after the flesh and not walk after the Spirit... and still go to Heaven. It's not God turning away from us, it would be us turning away from Him.

[/FONT][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]How can two walk together unless they are in agreement? (Amos 3:3)[/FONT]
[/FONT]