This isn't works, is it?

[Prov910]

Rest assure that God the Father is love, and loves you. But part of love is being just- He is also a Judge and a King. We are supposed to fear to disobey God, but the Bible says perfect love drives out fear. In other words, if you love God perfectly you have nothing to fear. He is not hoping that people will fail so that He can smite them, He is hoping for all to come to repentance so that He doesn't have to smite them with His righteous judgement.

He didn't have His Son die for nothing. He is angry with those who don't take advantage of it- wouldnt you be? Let's say the whole world caught a disease, and the only antidote requires the torture and death of your only son. And many people were on tv saying they won't take the cure, and laughed at your son. Wouldn't you be angry them? Absolutely! But would you be angry at those who didn't let your son die in vain? Who with tears of gratitude gladly accepted your sacrifice? Of course not- that was the whole purpose. Would you wish to smite them for showing signs of the disease as they heal? No- you sacrificed your son to cure them, why dishonor your son's efforts to by not having what he did work? That is counter-productive.

On our part we need to fear to disobey God- because that keeps us from the disease of sin. On His part He is hoping you make it to be with Him forever- to love you forever. But He needs you to have that fear of God as a tool to help you make it There.

God isn't a tyrant. It is God's goodness that leads men to repentance. The statement of yours I put in bold and increased the font size of, is horrendously inaccurate. Its not about our love of God casting out fear, but His love that transforms us. Our love simply reciprocates from His love, He first loved us and thats why we love Him. Our loves grows as we have a revelation of His great love for us. Any fear is cast away because we realize that we are secure in His love, and that He holds us in His hand. We do not fear because there is no condemnation in Christ, Jesus.

Your statement is very legalistic and works orientated, to think that our perfect love of God is what casts away fear. Its about His love, what He did for us, and His plan of reconciliation that gives us an eternal salvation. Its about Jesus, His death and resurrection, and that God loves us. It is through faith by grace.

This post exchange was in a different thread. Rather than derail that thread with this conversation I split it off so we could discuss it here.

BenFTW, I can't help but wonder about your response to OneFaith. I'm questioning it because I generally read your posts carefully and learn from them. At first glance, however, I don't think I agree with this response. I mean, Jesus specifically said that the most important commandment was to "Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength." (Mark 12:30). So how can that be works? It seems to me that works would naturally flow from loving God with all your heart, soul and mind. Not that the loving itself is works.

Enlighten me!

 

[Roughsoul1991]

This post exchange was in a different thread. Rather than derail that thread with this conversation I split it off so we could discuss it here.

BenFTW, I can't help but wonder about your response to OneFaith. I'm questioning it because I generally read your posts carefully and learn from them. At first glance, however, I don't think I agree with this response. I mean, Jesus specifically said that the most important commandment was to "Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength." (Mark 12:30). So how can that be works? It seems to me that works would naturally flow from loving God with all your heart, soul and mind. Not that the loving itself is works.

Enlighten me![/QUOTE]

Spot on brother. Thats why genuine faith will be a faith in action and not in a dormant sleep.

 

[BenFTW]

This post exchange was in a different thread. Rather than derail that thread with this conversation I split it off so we could discuss it here.

BenFTW, I can't help but wonder about your response to OneFaith. I'm questioning it because I generally read your posts carefully and learn from them. At first glance, however, I don't think I agree with this response. I mean, Jesus specifically said that the most important commandment was to "Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength." (Mark 12:30). So how can that be works? It seems to me that works would naturally flow from loving God with all your heart, soul and mind. Not that the loving itself is works.

Enlighten me!

Hey Prov910.

The part that is works-orientated is that OneFaith is describing our security in God and with God on the basis of merit. That we hold ourselves secure through our love of Him is a recipe for disaster. How do I know? Well, I went through a process of not feeling like I loved Jesus enough, or was grateful enough. It kept bothering me and eventually the Holy Spirit addressed it. He said to not focus on my love for Jesus but Jesus' love for me. It was a brilliant response. Do you know why?

[h=1]1 John 4:19 King James Version (KJV)[/h][FONT=&quot]19 We love him, because he first loved us.

It is through this revelation that we understand that our love reciprocates from His love. Our love for God becomes deeper as He reveals His love for us. Just like the principle of giving and then receiving, God so gave His love to us and in return He got love.

The issue with OneFaith's post is that the security of our relationship is not based in our love for God, or our works. It is based solely in Jesus Christ and His finished work. It is through His blood that our sins have been taken away and we now are reconciled to God, forevermore. The fear is in reference to Hell, right? It has to do with punishment. However, lets read what John says about fear and love.

[/FONT]
[h=1]1 John 4:17-18 King James Version (KJV)[/h][FONT=&quot]17 Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.

We do not have torment because there is no condemnation in Christ, Jesus (Romans 8:1). We may come boldy before God, resting in Him. So our fear is not eliminated through our perfect love of God, but through the faith we have in Jesus Christ (that God has granted us).

PS: A genuine faith does work, but such works do not remove the fear of death and judgement. An understanding of the finished work of Jesus and God's love for us accomplishes this. Also that the Holy Spirit is the Seal of Redemption. We are secure in the Lord. [/FONT]

 

[Grace777x70]

We can only love to the degree that we are loved by God first. We can make it a "work" to say that you need to love God. This is a works-based mindset that nullifies the grace of God from operating in our life the way it should.

As we believe and know the love of God for us - this releases His life to manifest in and through us. Get this backwards where we are being demanded to love God is the basis for all works-based belief systems.

It is requiring something that only God can give to us first. Demanding this "love" is works-based thinking and it is not the gospel of the grace of God in Christ. It is a religious belief system that denies the work of Christ and His grace in our lives.

1 John 4:16-19 (NASB)
[SUP]16 [/SUP] We have come to know and have believed the love which God has for us. God is love, and the one who abides in love abides in God, and God abides in him.

[SUP]17 [/SUP] By this, love is perfected with us, so that we may have confidence in the day of judgment; because as He is, so also are we in this world.

[SUP]18 [/SUP] There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves punishment, and the one who fears is not perfected in love.

[SUP]19 [/SUP] We love, because He first loved us.

 

[Grace777x70]

Oppss...looks like Ben and I posted at the same time.

 

[FreeNChrist]

if you love God perfectly you have nothing to fear.

Its not because of our "perfect" love for God that we have nothing to fear, as if. It's because of Gods perfect love for us.

 

[wsblind]

Oppss...looks like Ben and I posted at the same time.

Both are well worth reading.

 

[BenFTW]

Here, let me make clearer what the statement is saying. It actually can be summed up in the law, it basically is the law. She said, "If you love God perfectly, you have nothing to fear." Ponder over that for a moment, reread the statement. Do you love God perfectly all the time? Then you have something to fear.

Do you obey all 613 commandments of the Law of Moses? If you fail in one part, you fail it all (as a unit). Is fear and condemnation welling up in your heart yet? If your concept of your relationship with God has any basis in self, it becomes self-righteous and no longer is it of faith and grace. It is one of merit and then that means that salvation isn't a free gift but of debt (God owes it to you if you love perfectly).

The statement is almost a summation of the Law of Moses, if you can obey God perfectly then you will be blessed. If you love God perfectly then you have nothing to fear. Do you see it, now? Its scary! It brings in condemnation because we are incapable of it. If we are incapable then we do have something to fear, but praise God, we've got Jesus Christ and what He did for us. Hallelujah!

 

[Grace777x70]

Here, let me make clearer what the statement is saying. It actually can be summed up in the law, it basically is the law. She said, "If you love God perfectly, you have nothing to fear." Ponder over that for a moment, reread the statement. Do you love God perfectly all the time? Then you have something to fear.

Do you obey all 613 commandments of the Law of Moses? If you fail in one part, you fail it all (as a unit). Is fear and condemnation welling up in your heart yet? If your concept of your relationship with God has any basis in self, it becomes self-righteous and no longer is it of faith and grace. It is one of merit and then that means that salvation isn't a free gift but of debt (God owes it to you if you love perfectly).

The statement is almost a summation of the Law of Moses, if you can obey God perfectly then you will be blessed. If you love God perfectly then you have nothing to fear. Do you see it, now? Its scary! It brings in condemnation because we are incapable of it. If we are incapable then we do have something to fear, but praise God, we've got Jesus Christ and what He did for us. Hallelujah!

Yes...It is a very subtle deception of which we all in some form have in our lives of which I believe the Lord is revealing to us so that we can have our minds renewed to the truth of living by what He has already done only - this is only done by grace through faith.

It is a works-based righteousness based thinking of which all of us have been subject too in some form or other by our religious backgrounds and this type of thinking and belief system is the complete opposite of the true gospel of the grace of God in Christ.

Where we see "descriptions" of what the true Christian life looks like in scripture when Christ's life is being manifested - we try to "dictate" to others or demand that others "have or do" those descriptions and thus we actually nullify the very grace of Christ needed in order to live the true Christian life in order to manifest His love and grace towards others.

That "dictating" is a works-based mindset that is the complete opposite of the gospel of Christ.

We need to abide in the Vine - He is our life. Without Him - we can do nothing. He bears His fruit in us the branches of which the very first one is love.

Abiding in the Vine for fruit bearing is relying on what Christ has already done in His finished work and not relying on our own will-power or our flesh to try to do what Christ has already done. This truth remains for all aspects of living on this earth.

 

[joaniemarie]

In order to be secure we have to focus on His love for us not our love for Him. His love for us does not change with the circumstances in life. Is not subject to the change of seasons or age or any of the weaknesses of the flesh like old age or sickness and pain. Those things can cause our feelings and even our mind to falter. But God's love for us will never falter. It will never change because He never changes.

So when our faith is in Him and His love for us., then we are 100% secure. When we fail He is still there. When we succeed He is still there. His love is not dependent on our performance or lack of performance. Once we begin to see this kind of love for which only the Holy Spirit can give us a revelation of., it will be then we can truly be secure and being secure we will experience the confidence of that love.

We will be able to "take a city" "run and not grow weary"

 

[zone]

Here, let me make clearer what the statement is saying. It actually can be summed up in the law, it basically is the law. She said, "If you love God perfectly, you have nothing to fear." Ponder over that for a moment, reread the statement. Do you love God perfectly all the time? Then you have something to fear.

Do you obey all 613 commandments of the Law of Moses? If you fail in one part, you fail it all (as a unit). Is fear and condemnation welling up in your heart yet? If your concept of your relationship with God has any basis in self, it becomes self-righteous and no longer is it of faith and grace. It is one of merit and then that means that salvation isn't a free gift but of debt (God owes it to you if you love perfectly).

The statement is almost a summation of the Law of Moses, if you can obey God perfectly then you will be blessed. If you love God perfectly then you have nothing to fear. Do you see it, now? Its scary! It brings in condemnation because we are incapable of it. If we are incapable then we do have something to fear, but praise God, we've got Jesus Christ and what He did for us. Hallelujah!

yep Law & Gospel

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Here, let me make clearer what the statement is saying. It actually can be summed up in the law, it basically is the law. She said, "If you love God perfectly, you have nothing to fear." Ponder over that for a moment, reread the statement. Do you love God perfectly all the time? Then you have something to fear.

Do you obey all 613 commandments of the Law of Moses? If you fail in one part, you fail it all (as a unit). Is fear and condemnation welling up in your heart yet? If your concept of your relationship with God has any basis in self, it becomes self-righteous and no longer is it of faith and grace. It is one of merit and then that means that salvation isn't a free gift but of debt (God owes it to you if you love perfectly).

The statement is almost a summation of the Law of Moses, if you can obey God perfectly then you will be blessed. If you love God perfectly then you have nothing to fear. Do you see it, now? Its scary! It brings in condemnation because we are incapable of it. If we are incapable then we do have something to fear, but praise God, we've got Jesus Christ and what He did for us. Hallelujah!

That says it all. If our rest Jesus promised/ salvation he offers is based on our love of Jesus, We can not rest, We have to fear..

 

[eternally-gratefull]

As for love for god.

Love for God is not a work, It is a power based solely on his love for us (the things he did, is doing and will do) The things we do are a result of that love.

If our love is god focused, We will have good works, If our love is self focused, We will commit sin..

Saying we will lose salvation based on how well we love God? that is a dangerous gospel.

 

[psalm6819]

Good point EG

 

[Roughsoul1991]

This post exchange was in a different thread. Rather than derail that thread with this conversation I split it off so we could discuss it here.

BenFTW, I can't help but wonder about your response to OneFaith. I'm questioning it because I generally read your posts carefully and learn from them. At first glance, however, I don't think I agree with this response. I mean, Jesus specifically said that the most important commandment was to "Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength." (Mark 12:30). So how can that be works? It seems to me that works would naturally flow from loving God with all your heart, soul and mind. Not that the loving itself is works.

Enlighten me!

Also another thing to remember is love isnt natural at first. We first must trust in the gospel and the words of God. When this happens under surrendering of ones heart to the promises of God we begin to grow in Love as the Spirit works with us and we abide in the vine. As you trust, this allows God to demolish walls around your heart and move in to demolish the building and foundation of self/flesh. This building will be a life construction project. How fast it grows depends on you. If you try and take the hammer and nails from Jesus and put up your on wall, this wall will be built like the man who built his house on sand. It will ultimately be weak and its structural integrity could defile and destroy the house.

The wise man will abide in Jesus realizing his building is not sufficient to the building of the carpenter Jesus. And once again we keep moving forward to the hope we have in Jesus.